I honestly think that the Phantom which is most playable right now is the cheapest one. Simply add FCS and LF. Don't make it the centerpiece of your list. It's not for competitive builds but it's still a fun ship.

Phantoms live off green dice which is to say they don't live at all.

They aren't dead but they are one of the oldest ships that haven't had any direct support for them.

Time to reverse he nerf?

Appropriate to their name I find Phantoms still scare people a bit dispite being unlikely to cause any hurt. I still love them though.

3 hours ago, charlesanakin said:

I honestly think that the Phantom which is most playable right now is the cheapest one. Simply add FCS and LF. Don't make it the centerpiece of your list. It's not for competitive builds but it's still a fun ship.

This. I run 2 PS 3 generic Tie Strikers with title+LF with 2 PS 3 generic phantoms with LF+FCS+Intelligence Agent

every ship is a potent blocker, and the threat of 2 four-dice primary is real, regardless of PS. Intel agent can alleviate PS issues.

15 hours ago, mad mandolorian said:

so i was running Echo + VI + Stygium (yea boo hiss) + Kallus + Collision Detector and Echo was consistently the first to die, first to TLT Kavle then to a Exposing Palpatine in a Deci, the strange part echo was cloaked and had an evade toke the entire time, did i just have bad dice or is rolling 4-5 greens and having an evade not enough to deal with 360 arcs anymore?

'I'm running a bad build of Echo, why does it keep dying first?'

It could be because you're running a bad build of Echo. There's a reason VI/FCS/ACD is the gold standard Phantom build.

How are you reliably rolling 4-5 greens and still shooting?

4 greens without tokens averages 1.5 evades. 4 greens with an evade token only, 2.5 evades if you spend the token. So no, 4 naked greens is not enough to dodge a reliable 4 to 5 dice attack. TLTs are a bane to Phantoms even when they're well built, Kavil doubly so because of the extra die. I'd expect most Phantoms to last precisely 2 rounds against a well-build Kavil unless they donut hole him and/or kill him.

Phantom's main problem is not that it requires great flying skills. The problem is that it requires great flying skills AND quite a bit of luck to work. And I'm not talking just about randomness of green dice. You need luck with your match ups. There are plenty of things that counter phantoms hard and it becomes very, very hard to win if you face such a hard counter. The usual suspects are any lists based on mass use of TLTs, gunners (or similar effects), hard stress control or PS10+.

And we're about to get yet another one - Kylo crew on a PS10 RAC. Blinds the phantom on the first round and there's jack all you can do about it. Assuming it even survives that round, it will die in the next one before it can even fire once.

I've been having a bit of fun with some Sigma's with Light Weight Frame. It gives them a bit more survivability, they sorta become like Tie Advanced Prototypes, but with 4 red dice attacks, and the ability to cloak when they are going to get pounded or take a lot of shots.

If flew the following last night for some fun.

2 x Sigma + FCS + Intel Agent + Light Weight Frame

2 x Scimitar Squadron Pilots + Tie Shuttle + Tactician + Light Weight Frame.

Scimitars provide the stress on priority targets, and Sigmas go hunting for those targets. It worked pretty well, and Light Weight Frame saved the Sigmas several times. I need more play testing against better opponents but it does have promise.

8 hours ago, Grivoire said:

This. I run 2 PS 3 generic Tie Strikers with title+LF with 2 PS 3 generic phantoms with LF+FCS+Intelligence Agent

every ship is a potent blocker, and the threat of 2 four-dice primary is real, regardless of PS. Intel agent can alleviate PS issues.

I took this exact load out to a local regional and went 3-3 with it. The amount of firepower and pre-movement options can catch a lot of opponents off guard. Being PS 3 across the board is amazing for flexibility in the activation too. Hands down the most fun lists I've flown. 2 of those games I won was strictly because of Intel and the manuverability of the striker and phantom to forever block an ace. So satisfying

Unfortunately after those losses there was no "I could have won if I flew better and now I know" moment. I felt like there was a lot of opportunity to be creative and unpredictable in the movement, but then when matched up against PWT Zuckuss, homing Bossk (k4), etc it just didn't even matter. I think the sigma with SPA is way under rated and a lot tanker than folks give credit to but it still feels just a little lacking.

Edit: I just wanted to add that if (big if) FFG ever came out with a generic "fix" to take us away from ace wing then the generic Phantom is probably going to be a great position and will be a ton of fun to fly!

As usual with FFG, Phantoms were nerfed in the simplest way, not in a way that produced maximum balance and benefit for the game. The nerf they chose more or less left only Whisper viable.

Instead, they should have done this:

(1) Decloak is after activation, and only if the ship did not overlap a ship or obstacle.

• This allows blocking to prevent decloaking.
• This also allows for decloaking through (but not atop ) obstacles.

(2) A cloaked ship may still attack, but at -2 attack dice.

• This presents another tactical choice. It will rarely be worth giving up 2 attack dice in favor of 2 defense dice, but it's an option.

Overall, this would have been a reasonable nerf to the Phantom (most notable, allowing blocking to prevent decloak), and would shift some of the power from Whisper+VI and Echo+VI down to non-VI Whisper and Echo and even down to the Shadow and Sigma, probably making them all viable.

Finally, all that would have had to be changed is the Decloak reference card.

But FFG, man ... picking the "simplest fix" over the "better fix" every. Single. Time.

Like the Interceptor, the Phantom is very vulnerable to anti-ace tech (especially stress control) but unlike the Interceptor the Phantom can't equip Autothrusters. That makes it a very risky choice, which is another factor that led to the current popularity of the Defender.

I'm curious if the Upsi could bring the Phantom back a bit. You can run a Palp Upsilon with Wampa and Whisper easily, and Coordinate can help give Whisper the Evade she needs to contend with the whirling vortex that is the PS 9+ turret, that in its VI RAC and Dengar versions both badly hurt her.

1 hour ago, Jeff Wilder said:

As usual with FFG, Phantoms were nerfed in the simplest way, not in a way that produced maximum balance and benefit for the game. The nerf they chose more or less left only Whisper viable.

Instead, they should have done this:

(1) Decloak is after activation, and only if the ship did not overlap a ship or obstacle.

• This allows blocking to prevent decloaking.
• This also allows for decloaking through (but not atop ) obstacles.

(2) A cloaked ship may still attack, but at -2 attack dice.

• This presents another tactical choice. It will rarely be worth giving up 2 attack dice in favor of 2 defense dice, but it's an option.

Overall, this would have been a reasonable nerf to the Phantom (most notable, allowing blocking to prevent decloak), and would shift some of the power from Whisper+VI and Echo+VI down to non-VI Whisper and Echo and even down to the Shadow and Sigma, probably making them all viable.

Finally, all that would have had to be changed is the Decloak reference card.

But FFG, man ... picking the "simplest fix" over the "better fix" every. Single. Time.

I think because the simplest is the best when it comes to internet errata's. Your way would have for sure needed a new reference card, or it would have been confusing for people getting into the game way after the fix happened.

I don't really see a problem with the way decloaking works with being able to block, I think that was part of their initial mindset with the original fix. I mean the ship isn't teleporting, it's just turning invisible. So it can still hit things ,take damage and all that comes from that.

A better fix though would have included that you cloud shoot cloaked, but it instantly turned off the Cloaking Device. This protects it from high ps, allows it to be safe, so the lower the ps the better, then with advanced Cloaking Device you could turn it back on, it is pretty strong that way, but ACD is 4 points and that's a lot to pay already.

But that's not how it is

Either way whisper is awesome, and actually has made it into top 8's echo won one regional and mynock special I think just won one or placed high. He has just a lot of risks but usually it's only one risk in the whole list, so if the squad is balanced with other threats, you can beat it, but I have to admit that your gonna have one stressful regional flying it lol

Just now, TheOz said:

I think because the simplest is the best when it comes to internet errata's. Your way would have for sure needed a new reference card

The nerf as it was done already required a new reference card.

As done, forgetting to decloak (because it's divorced from moving the ship) happens a lot , even by really good players. It would be far better if the nerf had not divorced decloak and movement.

1 hour ago, Jeff Wilder said:

As usual with FFG, Phantoms were nerfed in the simplest way, not in a way that produced maximum balance and benefit for the game. The nerf they chose more or less left only Whisper viable.

Instead, they should have done this:

(1) Decloak is after activation, and only if the ship did not overlap a ship or obstacle.

• This allows blocking to prevent decloaking.
• This also allows for decloaking through (but not atop ) obstacles.

(2) A cloaked ship may still attack, but at -2 attack dice.

• This presents another tactical choice. It will rarely be worth giving up 2 attack dice in favor of 2 defense dice, but it's an option.

Overall, this would have been a reasonable nerf to the Phantom (most notable, allowing blocking to prevent decloak), and would shift some of the power from Whisper+VI and Echo+VI down to non-VI Whisper and Echo and even down to the Shadow and Sigma, probably making them all viable.

Finally, all that would have had to be changed is the Decloak reference card.

But FFG, man ... picking the "simplest fix" over the "better fix" every. Single. Time.

I strongly disagree, as this still allows the Phantom to have stupid levels of arc-dodging shenanigans, especially when paired with Advanced Sensors for a pre-reveal barrel roll to avoid blocks.

Even before nerf, Fat Han was keeping Echo off the tables. After the nerf went through, high-level players were still able to use Whisper to great effect. It stayed around 5-6% of ships taken up through Wave 8, which would be about the time that we saw a rise in 4-dice attacks, bomb damage (Sabine crew), and Omega Leader/Inquisitor.

46 minutes ago, PhantomFO said:

I strongly disagree, as this still allows the Phantom to have stupid levels of arc-dodging shenanigans, especially when paired with Advanced Sensors for a pre-reveal barrel roll to avoid blocks.

I suggest you try it. It's more of a nerf than you're conceptualizing.

2 hours ago, Jeff Wilder said:

The nerf as it was done already required a new reference card.

As done, forgetting to decloak (because it's divorced from moving the ship) happens a lot , even by really good players. It would be far better if the nerf had not divorced decloak and movement.

Yeah a new card wouldn't hurt, but it's really simple to just tell someone you decloak at the start, then explain the mechanic changed completely. I think we all feel like we can do a better job making this game,but they liked their mechanic as it was, we cried for a fix( not saying it didn't need balancing) and they tried to fix it simply because they knew they had no release for a long time that would bring back the mechanic so they could make a new card. You gotta think how long it must have taken them to come up with the original mechanic, seeing a whole new way of doing things is hard. And when they are working on other things at the same time. Just saying a simple fix is a logical fix. If they had years to test it, like you and me, they could see our perspective. You gotta remember they are working on things at least two waves ahead, if not more, and testing things we have not even seen yet. It's easy for us to see the holes because we play these things forever, they get a few months then on to the next thing

"Are phantoms dead?"

Ha Ha Ha!, Lots of answers and no one has noticed yet the brilliancy of the question...

1 hour ago, TheOz said:

[Stuff.]

Believe me, I'm aware of the process. My complaint is as plaintive as it is because I know how the sausage is made, not because I don't.

Was it REALLY a nerf though? Feels more like a "power shift" to me when Phantom can now block ANY ship with pre-Activation decloak!

The real struggle for Whisper right now is Fenn Rau and Manaroo lists. Whisper just rush range 1 at Fenn Rau like she can other aces, as she mathematically (I think) loses that trade, even when you get to shoot first and ACD cloak. There also aren't many good Whisper support options at the moment that can take on Fenn Rau once Whisper likely dies to Fenn + support. She was actually in a really great meta spot until Fenn + Manaroo became popular.

9 hours ago, Jeff Wilder said:

The nerf as it was done already required a new reference card.

As done, forgetting to decloak (because it's divorced from moving the ship) happens a lot , even by really good players. It would be far better if the nerf had not divorced decloak and movement.

I like the nerf in an age of mine-laying K-Wings. Phantoms are the only dodgy ship that have uncertainty both before and after movement. Forgetting decloak is much less of an issue if there is an "always go first" kind of ship in your list, too.

And with pre-movement blocking I believe there is an art barely utilized. It is one of the hardest things to do in the game for sure, but I don't think many have tried to master it as it will take a lot of time and to be competetive you need to know more builds.

An exceptional player could do extremely well against other exceptional players if he puts in the hours. Of course he might not, so I am not suprised nobody does so...

I think everyone losses in a range 1 Joust vs Fenn Rau. It's what he does. I've found keeping him at range works OK. FR still has good defence, but not as good as Whispers, and the extra red dice eventually tells.

Being able to do that, or not, comes down to the player, and how good they are at flying - so overall seems a pretty even fight.

I can't say I'll be doing any mourning if they stay dead. This expansion was the least balanced (mostly due to ACD and EPT slots) until the JumpMaster came along. It seems that fewer people play it now because Whisper is not the near auto-win ship it used to be (ie, the risk-reward ratio is more balanced).

38 minutes ago, redxavier said:

I can't say I'll be doing any mourning if they stay dead. This expansion was the least balanced (mostly due to ACD and EPT slots) until the JumpMaster came along. It seems that fewer people play it now because Whisper is not the near auto-win ship it used to be (ie, the risk-reward ratio is more balanced).

The same could be said of Fat Han, who took more than one Worlds title... (whereas the Phantom didn't) and had a much longer reign.

20 minutes ago, Keffisch said:

The same could be said of Fat Han, who took more than one Worlds title... (whereas the Phantom didn't) and had a much longer reign.

I'd say both things about both ships, actually. And if you remember the other finalist - that was a Phantom. the game was close and making final is only winning one less game then winning, so it is not all that different an achievement. A list doesn't have to win worlds to be a problem, either.

So I change my official answer. Not only are Phantoms not dead they may just be in the best spot they've been in for a long long time. Even Echo (perhaps especially Echo) has a really strong place in the upcoming and current meta. I figured it out today and it's beautiful. In particular because Echo is the most fun of all ships in X Wing to fly. Go ahead ask me how/why?