3 minutes ago, Warlord Zepnick said:

Where does it say "immediately" after?

Rules Reference Guide. Page 5. Section: Effect Use and Timing

3 minutes ago, Gowtah said:

Just like Dutch, the effect is here to prevent an unactivated squadron to be subsequently activated.

Yes, and that's what it does.

Can Dutch equip QLTs?

Can Dutch use Flechette Torpedoes?

Maybe in the next wave?

Just now, Warlord Zepnick said:

Yes, and that's what it does.

Can Dutch equip QLTs?

Can Dutch use Flechette Torpedoes?

Maybe in the next wave?

Dude, you're mistaking attack for activate. Or something.

Several people have quoted you the rules and tried to explain how an activation works. The tab only comes into play when you activate a squad. That is the only window where its status is checked against the current round colour.

The only explanation I have for your misunderstanding is that under squadron activation, the first two bullet points are "when" and the problematic one is "after", when they're all basically happening at the same time (different tense is kind of a clue).

That, and a lot of infering on your part.

If Dutch had counter, it would work the same as flechette torps: it wouldn't stop an activation in its tracks, because that mechanic simply doesn't exist in the game as it is .

7 minutes ago, Gowtah said:

Dude, you're mistaking attack for activate. Or something.

Several people have quoted you the rules and tried to explain how an activation works. The tab only comes into play when you activate a squad. That is the only window where its status is checked against the current round colour.

The only explanation I have for your misunderstanding is that under squadron activation, the first two bullet points are "when" and the problematic one is "after", when they're all basically happening at the same time (different tense is kind of a clue).

That, and a lot of infering on your part.

If Dutch had counter, it would work the same as flechette torps: it wouldn't stop an activation in its tracks, because that mechanic simply doesn't exist in the game as it is .

Dude, I get it, the purpose of the activation slider is to signify that the squadron has been activated. Activated. Past Tense. Meaning it has completed its activation.

Flechette Torpedoes forces a squadron activated by Yavaris to prematurely activate its slider.

18 minutes ago, Warlord Zepnick said:

It says AFTER the squadron activates. So if you're moving and shooting, you move, shoot, then toggle the slider because of the word "after."

So with Yavaris:

1) choose squadron to activate

2) shoot

3) flechette torpedoes

4) toggle slider

5) end of squadron's activation

So you think that you toggle the slider at the end of the activation, aka after you activate. Fine, whatever, I think you're doing that wrong, but I'll humor you.

I assume we have established the fact: • A squadron cannot activate if the color and icon of its activation slider do not match the initiative token. correct?

Why would Flechette Torps end the squads activation? Reference: "While attacking a squadron, you may spend 1 black die with a [crit] icon to toggle its activation slider to the activated side."

It doesn't say the squads activation ends. And the rules do not say you end a squads activation when you toggle the slider (which is where your infinite attack statement derived from, but we already know that is false because squads may only attack once and/or move).

I fully agree that following your flow chart you can use Flechette to toggle the slider of a squad. But since you have already activated it, it doesn't matter. Even with Yavaris, because Yavaris overrules the standard rules for squad activation: "[Squad Command]: Each squadron you activate can attack twice if it does not move."

Yavaris:

1. Activate Squad

2. Choose not to move and declare intent for Yavaris (this is more of a courtesy to your opponent)

3. Attack once

4. Flechette Counter

5. Toggle Slider

6. Attack again

7. Flechette Counter

8. End squad activation

The squad has already activated. There is no disruption to that. You cannot force a squad to end its activation. It is not supported in the RRG, nor on any card. The only way a ship or squad cannot complete its activation is if it dies during its activation (ramming/overlap and counter attacks).

Your argument hinges on your interpretation of "after" and that you can stop an activation half way through. I'd agree if Yavaris said "Squads you activate can activate again if they do not move" or something like that. But it doesn't.

Just now, Warlord Zepnick said:

Dude, I get it, the purpose of the activation slider is to signify that the squadron has been activated. Activated. Past Tense. Meaning it has completed its activation.

Oh ok, if it's a tense issue, google about present perfect simple then.

has activated =! has completed its activation.

Not that it matters anyway, but the card doesn't read "has been activated" or "has completed its activation."

The rules don't ever say that toggling the tab ends an ongoing activation.

You're just wrong, that happens.

35 minutes ago, Warlord Zepnick said:

Interesting point Draco.

So is the effect of Flechette Torpedoes to remind us that a squadron has been activated by toggling its slider, or is the effect of Flechette Torpedoes to forcibly activate a squadron to prevent it from further action?

No, it does exactly what it says it does: toggle its activation slider to the activated side. Because the status of the slider has already been checked by the time your ship gets the counter, per the rules that have already been posted mulitple times, it has no effect. If it had meant "you may spend 1 black die with a crit icon to prevent it from doing anything else this turn," it would have said that.

34 minutes ago, Warlord Zepnick said:

Where does it say "immediately" after?

Here, let me ctrl-f that for you:

RRG pg 5 EFFECT USE AND TIMING said:

• An “after” effect occurs immediately after the specified event and cannot occur again for that instance of the event.

32 minutes ago, Warlord Zepnick said:

Everyone here seems to be missing the point of Flechette Torpedoes also.

"Everyone is wrong but me" should tell you something about yourself.

Just now, Ardaedhel said:

No, it does exactly what it says it does: toggle its activation slider to the activated side. Because the status of the slider has already been checked by the time your ship gets the counter, per the rules that have already been posted mulitple times, it has no effect. If it had meant "you may spend 1 black die with a crit icon to prevent it from doing anything else this turn," it would have said that.

Here, let me ctrl-f that for you:

"Everyone is wrong but me" should tell you something about yourself.

What should it tell me Mr. Internet Stranger?

1 hour ago, Warlord Zepnick said:

Right, and Flechette Torpedoes requires you to toggle the slider to signify that the squadron is activated and can take no further action.

In fact you should write:

Right, and Flechette Torpedoes requires you to toggle the slider to signify that the squadron is activated and CANNOT BE ACTIVATED AGAIN.

Nothing about other actions. Of course it usually mean that the squadron doesn't attack or move cause the standard way to do this is through activation but we don't have a rule about interrupting activations. Flechette torpedoes just toggle the activation slider and activation slider just avoid you to activate an squadron. It doesn't avoid you to shoot or move. You usually can't because you need to be activated to do this but in this situation you are during your activation and the slider has no effects during activations. The slider point a status that must be checked before activating a squadron and just that.

And I would like that FT interrupted the activation and I even intend that it should do but I can't find a rule to support that.

21 minutes ago, Warlord Zepnick said:

What should it tell me Mr. Internet Stranger?

That if everyone thinks one thing, there is some merit to it. There is a chance they are wrong and people shouldn't follow the herd like sheep, but since everyone in here has an understanding of the rules and we all have an equal oppurtunity to examine those rules with no bias from each other, the chances that everyone here is wrong, except you, is slim to none.

8 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

That if everyone thinks one thing, there is some merit to it. There is a chance they are wrong and people shouldn't follow the herd like sheep, but since everyone in here has an understanding of the rules and we all have an equal oppurtunity to examine those rules with no bias from each other, the chances that everyone here is wrong, except you, is slim to none.

That's fair. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. But he was suggesting something about me personally (which I have no clue what he is specifically getting it), and I was under the impression that we didn't make personal attacks in this community.

1 hour ago, Drasnighta said:

Sorry. The Rule States:

• A squadron cannot activate if the color and icon of its activation slider do not match the initiative token.

I'm not Activating it. I'm finishing my Activation.

Your "Heavy Implication" is Gross BS at best.

1 hour ago, Warlord Zepnick said:

Still salty about RLBs I see.

Looks like yet another card will have to be FAQed.

2 minutes ago, Warlord Zepnick said:

That's fair, but he was suggesting something about me personally, and I was under the impression that we didn't make personal attacks in this community.

Guess it's a bit late for that already huh

You may not have meant it as a "personal attack", but it doesn't mean it's not disrespectful.

If it makes you feel better, I've always considered you as one of the more level headed people who can have a discussion about opposing view points without losing your mind or just repeating the same thing over and over again.

7 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

Guess it's a bit late for that already huh

You may not have meant it as a "personal attack", but it doesn't mean it's not disrespectful.

If it makes you feel better, I've always considered you as one of the more level headed people who can have a discussion about opposing view points without losing your mind or just repeating the same thing over and over again.

Yeah, I mean they're not personal attacks.

Sometimes I can be relentless in arguing a point, even if I'm wrong so point taken.

As someone quoted from the RRG

- After a squadron activates, toggle its activation slider to track that it has activated.

It says after "activates" not after "end the activation" or after "the squadron has been activated". It also say that its activation slider is toggled to track that it has activated not to end its activation.

I think the timing is pretty clear so in fact when you trigger FT through a counter attack the slider is already toggled. It won't mean a problem cause the FT specify that you toggle ONLY to the activation side.

3 hours ago, Warlord Zepnick said:

That's fair. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. But he was suggesting something about me personally (which I have no clue what he is specifically getting it), and I was under the impression that we didn't make personal attacks in this community.

It's not a particularly arcane riddle.

I was suggesting that you personally are likely wrong , given that pretty much every Rules Forum regular has disagreed with you and shown you why .

If being told you're wrong feels like a personal attack, you might do well to take a breather and come back to the topic later.

Flechette/QLT interaction is simple:

Squad activates

Squad shoots

Counter

Adds a black with Kallus: HIT/CRIT

Spend the CRIT

Move the activation slider immediately (instead of after the activation is complete)

Squad completes its activation

Doesn't need to move the slider - that's already done.

So you CAN trigger Flechettes, but it HAS NO PRACTICAL EFFECT!

5 hours ago, Green Knight said:

Flechette/QLT interaction is simple:

Squad activates

Squad shoots

Counter

Adds a black with Kallus: HIT/CRIT

Spend the CRIT

Move the activation slider immediately (instead of after the activation is complete)

Squad completes its activation

Doesn't need to move the slider - that's already done.

So you CAN trigger Flechettes, but it HAS NO PRACTICAL EFFECT!

I think the only alteration I would make here is.

Squad activates

Move the activation slider immediately (due to "after" rule in RRG)

Squad shoots

Counter

Adds a black with Kallus: HIT/CRIT

Spent the CRIT

Does nothing, since the slider has already been toggled

Squad completes its activation

Humble Opinion:

This thread has reached the Dras rule (3 pages long). Arguments have been posed and I know folks on both sides. Everyone is normally cool.

Let's put this one to bed for now.

32 minutes ago, CaribbeanNinja said:

Humble Opinion:

This thread has reached the Dras rule (3 pages long). Arguments have been posed and I know folks on both sides. Everyone is normally cool.

Let's put this one to bed for now.

]If I may add some formal logic before we close this:

A causes B

C causes B

Can we therefore conclude that C causes A ? (spoiler alert: no)

Now substitute:

A = The end of a squadron's activation

B = Toggling the activation slider to the activated side

C = Flechette torpedoes

18 hours ago, Warlord Zepnick said:

Forget the thing about infinite attacks. I made that comment to address the significance of the activation slider.

Toggling the activation slider signifies the end of the squadron's activation.

I really have no idea where you got this idea from.

At least not from the rules. You will find this wording nowhere in these.

The toggle is just an indicator for squadrons that did already activate and these that still can activate. it is an assistance so you know what squadrons were already activated.
It is only to see if you can activate a squadron, but once you activate the squadron, you can do all parts in any order (attack, move, toggle the slider, and whatever other effect may come). And as long as the toggle is standing in the other color as the initiative token when the squadron ends the activation, all is fine (even with Talon, who moves the toggle back AFTER the activation).

But for some strange reasons you come up with your own rule that the toggle can suddenly stop the whole activation, and end the squadron activation (something that is nowhere written).
There is only one way to stop a squadron in the middle of an activation. And this is by destroying it with the couter attack.

On 01/02/2017 at 7:14 AM, ovinomanc3r said:

As someone quoted from the RRG

- After a squadron activates, toggle its activation slider to track that it has activated.

It says after "activates" not after "end the activation" or after "the squadron has been activated". It also say that its activation slider is toggled to track that it has activated not to end its activation.

I think the timing is pretty clear so in fact when you trigger FT through a counter attack the slider is already toggled. It won't mean a problem cause the FT specify that you toggle ONLY to the activation side.

If your boss says that you can go to the Armada tournament after work he doesn't mean you can go during your lunch break or when you go to the toilet. He means you can go after you've clocked off.

If your parent says you can play games after your dinner they don't mean between the main meal and desert. They mean when you've finished your dinner.

If a teacher says you can go home after school they don't mean you can go home at morning recess, lunch or play break they mean at home time.

I think the same "English" can be applied here.

1 minute ago, Vetnor said:

If your boss says that you can go to the Armada tournament after work he doesn't mean you can go during your lunch break or when you go to the toilet. He means you can go after you've clocked off.

If your parent says you can play games after your dinner they don't mean between the main meal and desert. They mean when you've finished your dinner.

If a teacher says you can go home after school they don't mean you can go home at morning recess, lunch or play break they mean when after the home time bell.

I think the same "English" can be applied here.

Fortunately for us, the RRG tells us exactly how to interpret the word "after".

Since it's in the rule book - it overrides whatever you boss, parent, or teacher might mean when talking about something entirely outside the rules of the game.

4 hours ago, Vetnor said:

If your boss says that you can go to the Armada tournament after work he doesn't mean you can go during your lunch break or when you go to the toilet. He means you can go after you've clocked off.

If your parent says you can play games after your dinner they don't mean between the main meal and desert. They mean when you've finished your dinner.

If a teacher says you can go home after school they don't mean you can go home at morning recess, lunch or play break they mean at home time.

I think the same "English" can be applied here.

I said this because the RRG said what after exactly mean here. As immediately after if it says activates rather than end of activation it means a huge difference.

On 1/31/2017 at 1:19 PM, Warlord Zepnick said:

Here I go again, making "logical leaps."

Who the heck is this guy?

I mean, I have seen worse, hell I have made worse articles and leaps but at least those were people actually TRYING to figure out the rules...

Look Zep, first off, Dras is one of the best Rules guys on the boards. Second, check your attitude at the door and perk those ears up. You. Are. Dead. Wrong.

You slide the activation slider to signify activating that squadron. One reason that in Demo's with FFG they recommend sliding the slider once you declare activating that squadron. It is like flipping a Dial. You have done it and now cant take that back. Once that squadron is Activated and remember now, you have to "Activate" a Squadron to use it hence why the slider is moved once you declare a squadrons is activated.

Seems like pointless repetition but since some of the best rules guys here cant knock this into you then I got to do what I got to do. Good luck making up your own interpretations, they likely wont FAQ or Errata this because. . .well you are misreading and inferring which the rules dont allow for.

On 1/31/2017 at 3:41 PM, Warlord Zepnick said:

Everyone here seems to be missing the point of Flechette Torpedoes also.

It prevents activations. That's the point. Not to interrupt them.