Yeah, I should have said "erroneously got 2 tokens for 40"

Is it possible that at least one rebel fleet needs to be built specifically to deal with this situation, and if so, is there a fleet that can? Also, is there a perfect Empire turtle fleet that can always win this objective?

Some very quick ideas:

Empire Hyperlane Turtles:

• Konstantine's speed control Interdictors. This should completely prevent the Rebels from getting across the board?

Rebel Hyperlane Attack Fleets:

• Ackbar of doom? Maybe they can rip a ship or 2 up on turn 6 from red range?
• Max bombers with lots of FCT and Yavaris? Something on the Empire side should die, right?

3 hours ago, Democratus said:

Much depends on fleet composition. The Imps would be well advised to create an "Anti-Hyperlane-Raid" fleet which does very well on the defense.

Motti commanding 2 ISD with RLB with 8 squadrons. Each ISD gets a token. And two of the squadrons placed in the hangars get a token.

To score any points at all, the Rebels must kill one ISD.

Don't do this too much. If a fighter isn't in the board it can't have a token. So if all you have is two ISDs the rebels start with two tokens and free 40 resource points and 40 victory points.

To add data to the discussion:

We are going into round 4. The score is Imps 4, Rebs 1. The Rebels won 2 Show of Forces and 2 Hyperlanes in the first 2 rounds. Rekkon, our imperial tank fleet has kept points coming into the coffers however.

I'm a fanboy of this game and can't bring myself to criticize it often (I spend enough time being critical at work). However, I, as the imperial on Show of Force, was woefully outmatched in skill and list (he had a TRC90/YT4200 swarm and much more experience overall). I easily had the stations down in 2-3 turns using Glads and Rhymer. The rest was damage control for my fleet and I was moderately successful. Our other Show of Force didn't go quite as well against the same opponent/list, but it was the first round when the Imperial fleet was under the 1 upgrade per ship rule (against 5 TRC90's and rogues), but 1 station was destroyed. With the imp player handicapped a bit, it seemed a fair objective.

I defended the Hyperlane another round and felt like a scumbag turtling against someone I'd never played before, but it was easily the best option. In the end, I charged out to make a quick strike against one of my opponents 3 MC80s (2 winged) and gave him the win (and myself a clear conscience). The last 2 turns were fun, but I did not enjoy having to choose sportsmanship vs. good strategy.

To add another opinion:

I really like the Hyperlane Raid, but a tweak to further incentivize crossing the table and/or giving the Rebel player the win on a tie are good ideas IMHO. Then, at minimum the imperials have to get one ship across the line. Show of Force stations seem easy to destroy, but requires the Imperial player to risk damaging their fleet. It may not be perfectly balanced, but I'd say that it is within bounds and doesn't have a scumbag strategy that forces the sportmanship dilemma.

As an aside, I think giving the Rebels a small extra advantage would make it align better with Show of Force. Perhaps letting the Rebels place the obstacles anywhere on the table (to clutter their backfield a bit, would do.

In future games, I plan to houserule Hyperlane Raid to "Rebels win a tie". Thematically the imperial can turtle and 'wait for reinforcements', but will be giving up 40 points by default if he doesn't try to Red Rover at least 1 ship.

Another possibility is to make the deployment zone staggered or smaller for imps. As in can only deploy outside range five and inside two range rulers of player edge. Or player two's even deployments anywhere in deployment zone and odd outside range five but inside two range rulers.

I would be fine with a staggered deployment. Hell, Make it like fleet ambush where the Imp has to deploy every other ship in an advanced zone in the center of the map that the Rebels have a chance in hell of reaching in 6 turns without committing suicide.

I am just trying to change as little as humanly possible about the objective as written to accomplish what was obviously the failed intent of the developers- to capture the thematic excitement of the Rebels happening upon a Imperial Convoy and raiding it for those much needed supplies.

My hyperspace game was one mci0 wing, two assault frig and a float, vs an ISD, glad, two floatilla and a rhymer ball.

He turtled in the corner and i raced up one side, manage to pop a floatilla and some of his squadrons and that was it.

6 hours ago, Thraug said:

Is it possible that at least one rebel fleet needs to be built specifically to deal with this situation, and if so, is there a fleet that can? Also, is there a perfect Empire turtle fleet that can always win this objective?

Some very quick ideas:

Empire Hyperlane Turtles:

• Konstantine's speed control Interdictors. This should completely prevent the Rebels from getting across the board?

Rebel Hyperlane Attack Fleets:

• Ackbar of doom? Maybe they can rip a ship or 2 up on turn 6 from red range?
• Max bombers with lots of FCT and Yavaris? Something on the Empire side should die, right?

I was supposed to be the designated Hyperlane ***** for my rebel team. I'm running a 500-point variant of my Mothma Shrimp:

CC Final Form (500/500)
======================
MC30c Torpedo Frigate (63 + 26)
+ Skilled First Officer (1)
+ Ordnance Experts (4)
+ Assault Proton Torpedoes (5)
+ H9 Turbolasers (8)
+ Admonition (8)
MC30c Torpedo Frigate (63 + 23)
+ Lando Calrissian (4)
+ Ordnance Experts (4)
+ Assault Concussion Missiles (7)
+ H9 Turbolasers (8)
MC30c Torpedo Frigate (63 + 20)
+ Skilled First Officer (1)
+ Ordnance Experts (4)
+ Assault Concussion Missiles (7)
+ H9 Turbolasers (8)
MC30c Torpedo Frigate (63 + 18)
+ Skilled First Officer (1)
+ Ordnance Experts (4)
+ Assault Proton Torpedoes (5)
+ H9 Turbolasers (8)
Modified Pelta-class Assault Ship (56 + 11)
+ Entrapment Formation! (5)
+ Projection Experts (6)
GR-75 Medium Transports (18 + 31)
+ Mon Mothma (30)
+ Quantum Storm (1)
GR-75 Medium Transports (18 + 7)
+ Slicer Tools (7)
GR-75 Medium Transports (18 + 2)
+ Comms Net (2)

I have been successful both times I've tried it (once just barely). I can't say that I've faced a turtling fleet with it, but I think it would be effective. Speed 4 on all the primary threats means you should be able to drop into threat range by turn 4, probably 3 (I'd have to lay it out to verify). Two turns is plenty of time to turn a parked ISD into mincemeat. TRC90's should be able to do it even faster with their longer threat range and huge damage against ISDs.

Note that this is not to say that I disagree that the objective deals poorly with turtling. From what I've seen, I think the optimal approach for the Imps is still turtling, even against this fleet. By this point, FFG should have the feedback from previous tournaments and battle reports that engagement avoidance is a thing that people do if it favors them, and that the community generally hates it as a viable strategy. Leaving such a major loophole in this objective is, I'm sorry to say it, indicative of poor design in this instance. Which really is too bad, because if P2 doesn't turtle, it's one of my favorite objectives.

All this is, of course, caveated by the fact that lots of people thought IS was basically an auto-win for rebels early in Wave 1, so it may well be that, similarly, we just haven't figured it out yet.

The simplest solution to address the Hyperlane Raid turtle problem is to add this sentence to the objective card: "In the event of a 0-0 tie, the first player wins."

Now the Imperial player has to make an effort, because if the Imperials turtle then the Rebels can turtle back and get 40 free resource points.

In our experience, both objectives favor the Imperials. I'll offer some long-winded reasons as to why below, since I think there is an issue.

Show of Force: Heavily favors Imperials. It's very easy to kill one station as the Imperials in Show of Force, so even if both stations are split you can kill the station and if you win the game (by killing more points of Rebs) you still score 80-0 resource points. In theory, "wasting" attacks to kill the station should be expensive, but for Imperials it is not. Since every single ISD and VSD will start the campaign with Gunnery Teams, it's very easy to devout one attack to the station and one attack against an enemy ship. With no defense tokens and no repair options, 10 Hull dies very quickly. If the Imperial doing the Show of Force has Rhymer, they can really force the Rebel squadrons out into midfield early (making them easier to kill) or snipe the station from medium range with Rhymer. Show of Force is hard for most Rebel Fleets, if they are designed as standard (long range, skirt the fight) sorts of Rebel Fleets. Rebels don't want to play Contested Outpost, because in a clustered head-on engagements Imperials will smoke them every time. Trying to hold position near a station pins the Rebels down, and can let an ISD/VSD heavy list bull-rush the Rebels with their Gunnery Team front arcs.

Hyperlane Raid: Favors Imperials. As others have said, Imps should deploy as far back as possible and spin engines to zero Turn 1. This means that even the fasted Rebel fleet won't be able to start combat until Turn 3, but probably closer to Turn 4. If the Imperials have VSDs or ISDs (especially with Motti), this is simply not enough time to kill such ships. In Armada, especially with a starting 1-Upgrade-Per-Ship fleet, you really need to start working an ISD down on Round 2 if you want to have a chance to kill it by Round 6 (though if it's in danger it'll just hyperspace exist Round 4 or 5, but that's another issue). Even if the Imps play in the spirit of the mission, if they are VSDs or ISDs they can take advantage of the narrow board because it hems Rebels into their front arcs, and if they have Gunnery Teams (especially with Vader) this can be a nightmare match-up for just about any Rebel fleet.


In our Campaign, Imperials have tried Show of Force once and scored all 120 Resources. Rebels have tried Hyperlane Raid three times, and Imperials have won all three times, scoring 40-40, 40-0, 40-20 resource points. Rebels are yet to win a special assault objective.


I think to balance it, next time I'd suggest to our group that Hyperlane Raid have the following adjustment:

End of Game: The second player gains 1 victory token for each ship (not squadron) with an objective token within 2 range ruler lengths of the first player's edge. The first player gains 1 victory token for each ship or squadron with an objective token that is not within 2 range ruler lengths of the first player's edge. The first player's team gains 20 resource points per victory token he gained. The winner's team also gains 40 resource points.

This would actually force the second player (the Imperials) to try and get the objective ships through the blockade, because if they didn't they are effectively scored for the Rebel Player. I think this makes thematic sense, because it would represent the shipments being effectively blocked from getting to their delivery points on time, but it also incentives Imperials to actually play the mission. That being said, I still think Imps will have a general advantage in this match-up, because narrow head-on assaults tend to favor Imperials, and if it's an HP tank list (e.g. Motti ISDs) they can still delay engagement until turn 4 and try to sprint on Round 6 into the Rebel's deployment zone, and that doesn't really leave enough time for a Rebel fleet to kill that cargo-carrying ISD.

All wing standing by, This is exactly what should be Hyperlane Raid. I will propose it to my conterpart and I hope he will agree with the idea.

Those raids are supposed to help the player who made them to get easy amount of ressource instead of trying to do something else (attack on ennemy base, construct, etc...).

For now, I'm a witness of the all migthy of the Empire.

The Force is no longer with the Reb's

1 hour ago, ShadowKite said:

The simplest solution to address the Hyperlane Raid turtle problem is to add this sentence to the objective card: "In the event of a 0-0 tie, the first player wins."

Now the Imperial player has to make an effort, because if the Imperials turtle then the Rebels can turtle back and get 40 free resource points.

So they get 13 points each and no victory points? Also I won't have to waste any points on Refit? Deal.

29 minutes ago, FourDogsInaHorseSuit said:

So they get 13 points each and no victory points? Also I won't have to waste any points on Refit? Deal.

Agreed, this is why I like my suggestion of saying Objective ships or squadrons not in the First Player's 2-Ruler edge are scored for the First Player. This would mean if the Imps just turtle and avoid leaving their edge it would be +0 Campaign, +120 Resources to the Rebels. This ought to force the Imperial player to actually try and get through the blockade.

11 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

Agreed, this is why I like my suggestion of saying Objective ships or squadrons not in the First Player's 2-Ruler edge are scored for the First Player. This would mean if the Imps just turtle and avoid leaving their edge it would be +0 Campaign, +120 Resources to the Rebels. This ought to force the Imperial player to actually try and get through the blockade.

I think the answer is a little more thematic and requires only that we give the imperials a little push:

"When deploying, the second player must set their speed dial to 4." And a rule to cover ships that can't go speed 4 "At the start of the status phase, any ship at a speed higher than their maximum reduces its speed by one."

If we're talking about minimal tweaks to the scenario as published, then I think the addendum from AllWingsStandingBy is the best one:

End of Game: The second player gains 1 victory token for each ship (not squadron) with an objective token within 2 range ruler lengths of the first player's edge. The first player gains 1 victory token for each ship or squadron with an objective token that is not within 2 range ruler lengths of the first player's edge. The first player's team gains 20 resource points per victory token he gained. The winner's team also gains 40 resource points.

But personally I'd prefer a ground-up re-write that more accurately reflects a proper ambush/raid.

2 hours ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

End of Game: The second player gains 1 victory token for each ship (not squadron) with an objective token within 2 range ruler lengths of the first player's edge. The first player gains 1 victory token for each ship or squadron with an objective token that is not within 2 range ruler lengths of the first player's edge. The first player's team gains 20 resource points per victory token he gained. The winner's team also gains 40 resource points.

This would actually force the second player (the Imperials) to try and get the objective ships through the blockade, because if they didn't they are effectively scored for the Rebel Player. I think this makes thematic sense, because it would represent the shipments being effectively blocked from getting to their delivery points on time, but it also incentives Imperials to actually play the mission. That being said, I still think Imps will have a general advantage in this match-up, because narrow head-on assaults tend to favor Imperials, and if it's an HP tank list (e.g. Motti ISDs) they can still delay engagement until turn 4 and try to sprint on Round 6 into the Rebel's deployment zone, and that doesn't really leave enough time for a Rebel fleet to kill that cargo-carrying ISD.

I really like this tweak.

Maybe make it so that the Rebels don't automatically gain anything from ship/tokens left in the middle zone?

That would be my alteration as well GK. It seems overly complex as worded in the quote. Keep it simple, just incentivise action. That is all that needs to be done. Everyone needs to remember every word that gets written is a word that could be misunderstood. The less you say to accomolish the goal the better.

Though I still feel the objective worded that way could then up in a Mexican standoff where both fleets turtle and you literally have 6 turns of speed 0 dial flipping.

22 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

I really like this tweak.

Maybe make it so that the Rebels don't automatically gain anything from ship/tokens left in the middle zone?

What do mean specifically by your tweak? If Rebels don't automatically gain anything for ship tokens left In the middle zone, aren't we back to where we were? I'm probably misunderstanding you.

1 hour ago, Jambo75 said:

What do mean specifically by your tweak? If Rebels don't automatically gain anything for ship tokens left In the middle zone, aren't we back to where we were? I'm probably misunderstanding you.

I wasn't very clear...this is what I meant:

If Imps stay in their deployment zone: rebs autogain those tokens

If Imps end game in "neutral zone": rebs don't gain anything special

If Imp end game in Rebel zone: they get the VPs (but not the resources)

This adds a dynamic where they rebels must hunt down imperial ships left in the neutral zone, rather than just gaining freebie points. But if the Imps hide down in the corner of their own setup area, the rebels gain freebie points.

Thanks for all the feedback btw.

I'm not sure I have the definite answer - my experience is limited - but I think I'll suggest the "Hyperlane Raid fix" to my local group. We're starting the campaign pretty soon. I'll be the Imperial GA, and I don't want to see this turtling trend continue.

Caveat: perhaps FFG intended for HL to be hard(er)? I haven't played the campaign multiple times vs different opponents, so there could be checks and balances in here that I can't account for. I don't think that's the case, but I can't be 1005 sure.

I have given thoughts on this as my own local campaign comes up and these are my two conclusions:

-Hyperlane Raid is balanced. turtling seems unfun to some-not all. the rebel gets to be first player, which is Huge. the imperial gets to turtle up and place all obstacles. thats ok. all the rebel has to do is use first player to WIN and he gets 40 resource points vs 0, and possibly some more.

when i lost against brobafett for example, i didnt lose because "hyperlane is unfair for the rebel player"; i lost because 1) it was a 400 pts vs 486 pts battle, come on now! and 2) in a crucial moment i bombed the wrong target.

SHOW OF FORCE, however, is very imbalanced in favour of imperials and i say that as a player that has changed to imperials-main. it deserves a post of its own to examine what possibilities a show of force has.

ok, show of force. lets say we try to defend against it with an equal force. scenarios:

scenario #1: space stations are put together and defended.

conclusion of scenario #1: EZ win for imperial player; he charges in, using his first player to win, nowhere for the rebel to hide. 40 resource points. bonuses for the rebel: none. obstacles placed as normal. deployment as normal. nothing. zero. imp has first player, rebel has nothing to compensate. now, if the imperial also destroys even one station, great.

scenario #2: stations are put far from each other. rebels pick one station and defend it.

conclusion of scenario #2: imperials charge on that one station full-speed-ahead, using first player to help them win. ceteris paribus, they win. rebels get like 20 victory points for the one surviving station, IF it survives post turn 6. again w see rebels getting nothing. no turtling capabilities, no placement of REAL obstacles that can help them TRADE BLOWS WITH THE FIRST PLAYER.

scenario #3: stations are put far from each other. rebels defend both.

conclusion of #3: suicidal. imperial charges one of the stations, wipes the rebs out and that sattion, claiming 80 resource points.

we see NO second player advantage across these scenarios. STOP thinking about the campaign, the issue isnt the resource points (i'll get to that) the problem is that it makes it hard for the rebel to WIN. NO SECOND PLAYER ADVANTAGES. none. basicaly, Show of Force is the WORST SECOND PLAYER OBJECTIVE IN THE GAME, barring maybe fleet ambush. even Station Assault gives more victory points per station iirc, so at least theres THAT (and even that seems to be on the weak side of objectives)

resource-wise: a losing imperial player can just forfeit the game, destroy stations and give resources to his team. a losing rebel cant do anything to save something from the battle.

attrition-wise: it is a very unforgiving objective. if the rebel player is behind, he cannot deploy in such a way as to stop taking damage and escape to hyperspace. it doesnt give any deployment advantage like solar corona/superior positions/etc.

the second player NEEDS an advantage, merely for being a second player. show of Force gives NONE unless the rebel defends one of the stations and the imperial chooses to be DUMB and split forces for no apparent reason.

Conversely, I do think the problem is with Hyperlane Raid, and that Show of Force is relatively ok. They're supposed to be resource gathering missions for their respective sides and if the Imps are regularly getting 80-120 resources from SoF and the rebels are having hard time even stopping the Imps from getting a 40-0 in HR, then there's a problem.

Killing all 4 Imp ships is extremely difficult, and I think the better option is if Rebels gained tokens for each Imp ship that's not made it to the end zone. Thematically, it can make sense as getting to end zone and surviving till round 6 can represent getting to safety and surviving the ambush.

6 minutes ago, Jambo75 said:

Conversely, I do think the problem is with Hyperlane Raid, and that Show of Force is relatively balanced. They're supposed to be resource gathering missions for their respective sides and if the Imps are regularly getting 80-120 resources from SoF and the rebels are having hard time even stopping the Imps from getting a 40-0 in HR, then there's a problem.

Killing all 4 Imp ships is extremely difficult, and I think the better option is if Rebels gained tokens for each Imp ship that's not made it to the end zone. Thematically, it can make sense as getting to end zone and surviving till round 6 can represent getting to safety and surviving the ambush.

but rebels can just NEVER GET FULL 120 POINTS from the hypelrane raid, focus on WINNING THE BATTLE as a game should be, and gain 40-80 points from it (as is BALANCED. special assault being always equal to 100-120 points is NOT balanced.) just play it as a normal battle and see what extra resources they gain. in that scenario, rebs get first player(huge) and imps get obstacle placement/turtling(not always huge, but very, very important). thats fair.

in show of force, Imps get first player (HUGE), rebels get... ok please someone explain to me what they get. if the imperials focus on winning the battle and only destroy stations as an afterhtought/using nonactive arcs, it sems second player gets NOTHING in this scenario. please explain to me what they get.

14 minutes ago, Jambo75 said:

Killing all 4 Imp ships is extremely difficult, and I think the better option is if Rebels gained tokens for each Imp ship that's not made it to the end zone. Thematically, it can make sense as getting to end zone and surviving till round 6 can represent getting to safety and surviving the ambush.

This ^^

I'd originally thought that this was sort of the case anyway and that is still pretty hard for the Rebels - two ISDs and two Raiders or Kittens will be hard for the Rebels to kill one let alone all four.

Add to the fact the Imperial can turtle and it's no wonder we haven't tried to run this objective in our campaign yet!