42 minutes ago, shmitty said:

Hyperlane Raid also hurts the Imperials, forcing them to un-scar those destroyed ships. So, the Rebels gain and the Imps lose. The Rebels lose nothing for a station being destroyed in Show of Force.

This *might* help balance out the imbalance, as it were, I just loath objectives that incentivize turtling, which is the case for the Imperial side of Hyperlane Raid. There is, quite literally, no reason why any Imperial would ever want to try to rush to the other board edge. They are the defender, so they auto-win if no fighting happens, and they score 40 resources for that win.

It's just a poorly threshed out objective. Even with just the SMALL tweak that the imperials could only score resources for the win if at least two objective ships ended within in 2 range rulers of the Rebel board edge would be enough. It would mean you could take the win by turtling, preventing the Rebels from scoring big resources, but then there would be no benefit for you either. It would mean, especially in the early turns where these assaults are likely to be declared, that it would be very very rare to see an Imperial fleet turtle on the objective.

Rebels have to work HARD to keep those stations alive to score resources. They can do it, and they can force the Empire to take losses and maybe score the 40 for the win. But they have to work, and they have to fight, and I think overall this is a pretty balanced objective.

Hyperlane Raid on the other hand, the less the Empire works, the better. Imperials have to drop to speed 0 and dare the rebels to charge full speed in a single file line into the front arc of an ISD to desperately try and sink it on turn 5 or 6, all to often resulting in horrific casualties in the process.

If they turtle.. the rebs have a good chance of wining a small point exchange due to first player and likely activation advantage. With MC30s or a good squadron attack they could blow up a flotitlla right at the end.. win the match, get the 40 (maybe even an extra 20 for whatever they killed). It's not amazing, but I think turtleing is not the OP move the imps can do. The OP move is just play the match as usual. The rebs have to kill ships to get tokens, the imps just have to cross the line 2 rulers away.

6 minutes ago, homedrone said:

If they turtle.. the rebs have a good chance of wining a small point exchange due to first player and likely activation advantage. With MC30s or a good squadron attack they could blow up a flotitlla right at the end.. win the match, get the 40 (maybe even an extra 20 for whatever they killed). It's not amazing, but I think turtleing is not the OP move the imps can do. The OP move is just play the match as usual. The rebs have to kill ships to get tokens, the imps just have to cross the line 2 rulers away.

and the Imps have to be alive end turn 6.....

Much depends on fleet composition. The Imps would be well advised to create an "Anti-Hyperlane-Raid" fleet which does very well on the defense.

Motti commanding 2 ISD with RLB with 8 squadrons. Each ISD gets a token. And two of the squadrons placed in the hangars get a token.

To score any points at all, the Rebels must kill one ISD.

and the Imps have to be alive end turn 6.....

Rebs do as well.. it comes down to who can play best. Turtle, and I feel you are leaving it open for you opponent to find that one weak spot and grab the points.

Homedrone, have you playtested this mission? Because I think it is easy to have rose glasses when looking at the cardboard.

I have played the defensive fleet for this objective twice, and while not a huge sample size, I can say that I turtled both times. I apologize to both my opponents for boring lopsided games. Just know that I agree with you, and am not a fan myself.

First time was against a Mon Mothma TRC90 and double MC30 fleet, which I inflicted heavy losses on and beat sitting at speed 0 till turn 5, and even literally taking one round of fire at speed 0 before creeping forward. Net gain was 40 resources for both of us, but they had much much heavier losses overall. I could unscar my entire fleet, they lost some ships in the next fight because they couldn't unscar.

Second time was against a Dodonna bomber fleet that ended in a tabling without a single ship loss. 40 resources to the empire, 0 to rebels.

And I respect both my opponents as players, and know that it is not that I am some fantastically magically skilled player that is unbeatable, because against one of those same players on my assault I got tabled.

I simply realized that by hating myself deeply and deploying with my butt sitting on the back edge of the play area and dropping to speed 0 I could let their slow ships fall behind and fast ships overextend making their fleet easy pickings for my clump of ships at speed 0 or 1 in the bottom corner of the map.

My son and I just finished our first Hyperlane Raid. I was playing as the Imps and never thought about turtleing my list as a viable tactic, playing for the draw. I just can't play the game that way. I put that right up there with trusting that the Rebel forces aren't going to cheat in any way as stated in the rules. The object of the game is to have fun and experience Star Wars in a more thematic way than playing one off games or a tourney. I am attempting to fly the Imperial fleet through a hyperlane from one side to the other and we are bound to be ambushed by the Rebels. Why would ANY Imperial fleet be afraid of the Rebel scum anyways?

49 minutes ago, BrobaFett said:

Homedrone, have you playtested this mission? Because I think it is easy to have rose glasses when looking at the cardboard.

I have played the defensive fleet for this objective twice, and while not a huge sample size, I can say that I turtled both times. I apologize to both my opponents for boring lopsided games. Just know that I agree with you, and am not a fan myself.

First time was against a Mon Mothma TRC90 and double MC30 fleet, which I inflicted heavy losses on and beat sitting at speed 0 till turn 5, and even literally taking one round of fire at speed 0 before creeping forward. Net gain was 40 resources for both of us, but they had much much heavier losses overall. I could unscar my entire fleet, they lost some ships in the next fight because they couldn't unscar.

Second time was against a Dodonna bomber fleet that ended in a tabling without a single ship loss. 40 resources to the empire, 0 to rebels.

And I respect both my opponents as players, and know that it is not that I am some fantastically magically skilled player that is unbeatable, because against one of those same players on my assault I got tabled.

I simply realized that by hating myself deeply and deploying with my butt sitting on the back edge of the play area and dropping to speed 0 I could let their slow ships fall behind and fast ships overextend making their fleet easy pickings for my clump of ships at speed 0 or 1 in the bottom corner of the map.

Played it on the weekend. My opponent did not turtle, but it was still hard to win. If my opponent HAD turtled, I'd have have been ok with it for the campaign, though maybe a bit dull, at least quick turn game. I can see a plan that would have allowed me to do just as I'm saying.. get an MC30 on last activation to target something juicy at first activation on turn 6. I'm not saying it's a guarantee.. I just think the odds of it working are good enough that I would not call turtling an OP move or even the best move.

EDIT:
Though.. I can see a list tailored to making it easier to pull off. IE: don't have any one shotable ships like flotillas or Raiders, use RLB so your fighters aren't on the board. But then you'd be disadvantaged in a regular defense with a low activation list?

If you didn't bring Gunnery Teams, them show can be difficult when you factor the opportunity cost if not shooting enemies.

How to win Hyperlane Raid as rebels:

Bring Norra, Biggs X-Wingball, Yavaris, at least 2 VCX.

Laugh if they turtle.

*Still waiting on everyone giving advice to post the stats of their own CC games*

14 minutes ago, Teh HOBO said:

How to win Hyperlane Raid as rebels:

Bring Norra, Biggs X-Wingball, Yavaris, at least 2 VCX.

Laugh if they turtle.

aa bud aa

Little curious how a BiggsBall is going to bring down a Motti ISD with RBD in the 2 turns of attack it will have.

1 minute ago, Tirion said:

aa bud aa

From what? The raider that'll die in one turn? The ISD that will die in 2-3, especially if they are speed 0? Remember they can choose who they attack as you're all stationary and speed 0.

2 minutes ago, Democratus said:

Little curious how a BiggsBall is going to bring down a Motti ISD with RBD in the 2 turns of attack it will have.

All Fighters Follow Me! gives them speed 4, they'll get to you turn 3 and a Bright Hope BCC is almost impossible to kill long range. Also he had gold squadron. So two double tapping Y-Wings with BCC rerolls and a couple of X-Wings will put a major dent in a speed 0 ISD, or kill the small ships you brought. Remember relay means his ships only have to come in the end to finish you off.

Again this isn't theory-crafting. This is what I faced in my turn one matchup(minus bright hope on the BCC). Biggs shuffles around the damage nicely and two blue AA is realistically an average of 1 dmg on a 5-6 hull fighter and biggs can shuffle dmg around to keep them alive longer.

27 minutes ago, Teh HOBO said:

How to win Hyperlane Raid as rebels:

Bring Norra, Biggs X-Wingball, Yavaris, at least 2 VCX.

Laugh if they turtle.

This was literally the fleet that I faught against in my second game of Hyperlane and tabled. By turtling.

I know it doesn't fit the theme. I know it isn't Imperial. But what I am saying is that it is the game developers responsibility to make sure, by correct placement of objective incentive, that gameplay flows how they want it to flow. You can't make something tactically preferential, and then sit there and say, "you shouldn't do that because it isn't thematically correct."

I agree with you. It makes 0 sense in the world that for an objective that is supposed to portray a convoy attack that huddling in a corner at speed 0 is the best course of action. But by making it an auto win for the defender in a tie, and resources only tied to the win and not ANYTHING to do with the objective itself, there is no reason to do anything else.

FFG needed to incentivise moving ships.

From now on, I am playing this objective in such a way that resources are only scored for the Imperials if I get ships to the deployment. But I shouldn't have to house rule such an important objective as the primary resource gathering avenue for rebel players in CC.

2 minutes ago, Teh HOBO said:

From what? The raider that'll die in one turn? The ISD that will die in 2-3, especially if they are speed 0? Remember they can choose who they attack as you're all stationary and speed 0.

All Fighters Follow Me! gives them speed 4, they'll get to you turn 3 and a Bright Hope BCC is almost impossible to kill long range. Also he had gold squadron. So two double tapping Y-Wings with BCC rerolls and a couple of X-Wings will put a major dent in a speed 0 ISD, or kill the small ships you brought. Remember relay means his ships only have to come in the end to finish you off.

Again this isn't theory-crafting. This is what I faced in my turn one matchup(minus bright hope on the BCC). Biggs shuffles around the damage nicely and two blue AA is realistically an average of 1 dmg on a 5-6 hull fighter and biggs can shuffle dmg around to keep them alive longer.

2 of them will get there

I'm not sure I'd ever waste precious gaming time of mine on a boring turtle fest and I'd be disappointed if my opponent opted for this strategy. So for me, the spirit of the game is important.

Having said that, Empire wins victory tokens for getting their ships across and in my experience I found it relatively easy to do this. I won the battle gaining 40 resources, he won 40 for killing a ship. He lost more ships than me, so I'm not sure why people might risk the turtle from a pure must win point of view.

Maybe the deployment zone shouldn't be so deep?

Regardless, it's a tough one for the rebels...

7 minutes ago, Jambo75 said:

I'm not sure I'd ever waste precious gaming time of mine on a boring turtle fest and I'd be disappointed if my opponent opted for this strategy. So for me, the spirit of the game is important.

I agree. But I also think that no one should be more conscious of the spirit of the game than the developers. They need to make sure the objectives capture the spirit of what they are trying to simulate.

Targeting beacons fails to capture the potential spirit of the objective as it could be.

Blockade run and Hyperlane raid (both) I feel fail to capture the spirit of the objective they are trying to depict.

All in all I am ecstatic about the campaign. I just hate that such a pivotal part of it can be abused by the Imperial side to gain undue advantage. And again, this is coming from someone that has done it, and hates it, and won't do it any more.

Did this last weekend. First round, so un-improved MC30 swarm vs GSD/RDR/ARQ group. I won, but only killed 1 objective ship, and a non-objective ship. I almost had another, but diverted my last E-wing to tie up enemy bombers instead of attacking the wounded ship. Saved Mon mothma, but let a juicy ship get away.

1 hour ago, ryanabt said:

*Still waiting on everyone giving advice to post the stats of their own CC games*

My team is up 5 games to one.

1 minute ago, BrobaFett said:

I agree. But I also think that no one should be more conscious of the spirit of the game than the developers. They need to make sure the objectives capture the spirit of what they are trying to simulate.

Targeting beacons fails to capture the potential spirit of the objective as it could be.

Blockade run and Hyperlane raid (both) I feel fail to capture the spirit of the objective they are trying to depict.

All in all I am ecstatic about the campaign. I just hate that such a pivotal part of it can be abused by the Imperial side to gain undue advantage. And again, this is coming from someone that has done it, and hates it, and won't do it any more.

But they did. The Imperials get victory points for getting their ships into the end zone. That is the carrot, that's how it's intended to be played. I'll give you that they probably didn't playtest it enough, and alas, it's a simple fact that gamers always find ways to game a system if one exists.

Targeting beacons bothers me more because it's just plain stupid. It's probably had some last minute tweak before print and as a result hasn't translated across properly. I'd like to see that one and hyperlane raid revisited asap, but FFG are clearly slow with solving some of their more obvious issues...

It's a carrot without a purpose, because you win in a tie. So you don't need victory points from the objective when the onus is on the ATTACKER to ensure that he can kill enough that you don't automatically win. If the objective tokens were a condition of victory, IE you cannot win unless you have an objective ship in their deployment, if you don't end the game with a ship there by turn 6 the Rebels win. My problem is, why even hand the Rebel player the POTENTIAL for a win when you can all but guarantee victory by turtling?

With the distance required to travel to reach a defensively deployed fleet with the play area on it's edge being extra long, it means it will be impractical, if not impossible (as is the case for speed 2 ships like the Pelta) to get in range to do anything meaningful in 6 turns. Additionally, because the Rebels are having to charge, and have no ships that can shoot after moving, it gives the Imperial player one whole extra round of shooting at them before you can strike back.

The objective is given a reward that is supposed to motivate Imperials to move accross the map. Unfortunately it fails to do that splendidly, and the spirit of the mission, and the playability it was designed around, is lost.

As an Empire player, I should not have to choose between using the best strategy to win, or playing a halfway fun game. It should be the first priority to make sure that the game rewards strategy and thought with good games, not crappy ones.

43 minutes ago, FourDogsInaHorseSuit said:

My team is up 5 games to one.

Perhaps you could give stats pertaining to the discussion as I previously did.

As in...

How many hyperspace lane games has your group played? What were the results in refit points for each of them?
How many Show of Force games has your group played? What were the results in refit points for each of them?

We are on round 4 of a 6 player campaign.
It's 6:3 for the Imperials. (6VPs to 2VPs)

Hyperlane was played once on round 1, Rebs won for 80 resource points. Imps got two tokens for 40.
No Show of Force yet. Imps haven't needed it.

16 minutes ago, homedrone said:

We are on round 4 of a 6 player campaign.
It's 6:3 for the Imperials. (6VPs to 2VPs)

Hyperlane was played once on round 1, Rebs won for 80 resource points. Imps got two tokens for 40.
No Show of Force yet. Imps haven't needed it.

The Imperials don't get resource points for tokens, only points for winning the battle.