Bear in mind I've limited experience with CC: I've only done 2 Shows of Force and observed my team defend vs 2 Raids.

That said, isn't Show of Force MUCH easier to do than Hyperlane Raid?

I mean, those stations DIE EASY. 10 dmg vs something wo shields or def tokens is NOTHING. I'm running Vader OE Demo, which is insanely effective, but there are plenty of other stuff than can deliver reliable damage.

Even if I don't destroy my opponent, I can take down 1-2 stations, scoring us a bucket of resources

Hyperlane Raid, on the other hand, requires you to kill a ship to get a token. Four kills for the full four tokens. Practically a tabling.

Not to mention the Imp player can castle in a corner or spread out or a combination to limit the possibility to losing all 4 ships.

I think the belief was that the imp players would do the meta thing and bring a couple flotillas and raiders/arqs. Which isn't happening too much from what i can tell.

Try using a bomber fleet as the rebels. Even if the Imps don't come out in a hurry you can quickly kill a small ship with a round of dedicated bombing. Or kill the fighter wing escorting the Imps.

We house ruled this mission so that this mission, and only this mission, the rebels always win if it's a tie.

Oops, double post.

I think the Show of Force can be much tougher depending on fleet matchups. If the rebel player is able to place the stations well, you could have to basically fly into the teeth of a well played Sato force (like my partner did) to score any points. Hyperlane Raid could turn into a casting situation, but the Rebels do have several speed hitters that can likely pick off one ship or a couple of Ties to score 40 points in the win

Agreed. Both missions put the onus on the 1st player to drive into the teeth of the enemy.

Show of Force further asks that the Imperials fire on stations instead of the enemy which is sitting right in their face and shooting back.

Hyperlane Raid only requires that the Rebels shoot at enemy ships/squadrons.

The enemy I have faced during my last Show of Force was a squadron-heavy list that destroyed all my ships as I destroyed the station. I got 80 resources and lost an ISD, Demolisher, and a flotilla. My opponent got 40 resources, the ability to construct a base, and lost a flotilla.

Again, limited experience, but thus far:

1st round vs Rieekan BC+TRC hell. It cost me a pretty penny in destroyed ships, but it cost him more. I got 120 resources, he got nothing. I got a bloodied fleet, but had more resources to rebuild AND got a nice base built. MVP was Demo, who after destroying/chasing stuff away used the last rounds to kill the station, while a raide sped over to the other one and blew it to bits. Black dice w/rerolls = dead stations. But really, anything with rerolls or TRC picks down stations FAST.

3rd round. More of the same, only Mothma. This time too I was able to use "spare arcs" that wouldn't contribute much to the overall battle to take out the stations. It felt just too easy.

I'm left with the feeling that any Imperial assault can easily blow up those stations.

So keep posting experiences to the contrary!

I seen imperial players turtle up on hyperlane assault. They stay in on corner change speed to zero, and sit there for 4 turns. Then speed up to 1. Thus you have two round of shooting.

While a ISD, VSD can almost one shot a station.

If your the rebel players and running hyperspace assault with ship going at speed 2 and no engine tech you wont reach the imperial if he turtles.

While placement of the two stations you can spread them across the board in the two corners of the rebel players and turtle on one. But your hoping the imperial player comes rushing in and fly off the board.

I have been thinking about this in our game. I tend to agree with you. The problem, to me, comes down to the imp players ability to mitigate through repairs, running away, etc. the rebel player really has only one choice.

Yes, the reb knows that the imp will have to "waste" shots, but those can be side arcs and last turn raiders for the kill.

EDIT:
For Thraug (and others) sake...
I have played as rebel player in one hyperlane and one show of force.

Hyperlane my opponent (tarkin) castled in the back and I got two rounds of shooting at him at best.
Show of Force my opponent (Vader with ISD and Demo...it was Green Knight) had ample opportunities to shoot the stations and didn't really ever feel like he wasn't going to get them.

5 minutes ago, mobow213 said:

I seen imperial players turtle up on hyperlane assault. They stay in on corner change speed to zero, and sit there for 4 turns. Then speed up to 1. Thus you have two round of shooting.

While a ISD, VSD can almost one shot a station.

If your the rebel players and running hyperspace assault with ship going at speed 2 and no engine tech you wont reach the imperial if he turtles.

While placement of the two stations you can spread them across the board in the two corners of the rebel players and turtle on one. But your hoping the imperial player comes rushing in and fly off the board.

Actually, as GK proved in our last game, imp can make the reb keep the station on one side of the board using obstacles.

When posting, can you tell us which objective you are playing? Most of these posts are meaningless without knowing if you are playing the Empire or Rebel special assault.

We've played both the Show of Force and the Hyperlane Assault missions, and yes, judging by the fact the Imps won both, I'd agree the Imperial mission is much easier to get resources on and secure a win.

I was the Imps and I didn't do anything heinous like turtle in the bottom corner. I actually did try to win the mission and get my ships to the other side. I lost one ship and won the mission.

IMHO, this one is hard on the first player. Not only because the second player places all obstacles and so can funnel routes through making it very difficult, but I also used a Spynet to redeploy my decoy ship to make this even more challenging. This forced my opponent who was playing Neb Bs and a Liberty based Sato list to come through a raft of asteroids to meet my ISD and Arquittens. It's fairly hard to table an ISD, let alone a whole Imperial fleet - the fast moving Arqs made a sprint, the ISD can also fly fast when it needs to, and the flotilla is well, a flotilla and already tough to kill.

I think if I was building a Rebel fleet for CC, the one doing Hyperlane Assault would have to be a fast and high damage one - MC30s and / or a bomber fleet most likely. Slow ships like Home One or the Pelta probably just don't cut it as you have to be able to react to whatever the Imps try to do and that could be sprinting through or turtling.

Horrible Dice Rolling cost me my Hyperlane Raid as Rebels.

Imp 2
TRCArq
TRCArq
Flotilla
Fighter Ball conisting of
- Maarek
- Defender
- Jendon
- Tempest
- IG88

Vs my Sato List
MC80
- RBD
MC30
- ACM
MC30
- ACM
Flotilla
- EHB
Lancer x2
VCX
X
Z x 2

And things were alright, until I had one Arq on 2 damage cards, 0 shields, and rolled "Single Hit, Blank Blank" on my 3 black dice at short range, to not kill it... To take Double-Double-Acc-Confire-TRC-to-Double Back and lose my MC30.

Throwing 6 blacks at the ISD at close range and not scoring a single Hit/Crit the next turn. Lousy.

Three Blues Three Blacks at a Flotilla and it still gets to scatter ... Blargh!

Killed 2 Ships, Lost the Game. Even Stevens. 40 points Each.

'Cept of course, my whole fleet is basically scarred, and because the Imps took their Station Assault for the full 120, they're not only refit, they're at almost 500 going into Round 2.

Pertinent to topic. In your cc games, give the refit points gained.

For vassal cc #2-

3 hyperlanes- imps 120 & Rebs 60-100 (don't have final up to date)

2 show of force- imps 240 & Rebs 0

Our group has only just finished up the first round of CC, but when I looked over the objectives for Show of Force and Hyperlane Raid, they do seem really in favor of the Imperials. Especially with what the Imperial players have brought to the game.

I'm almost too afraid to even consider attempting a Hyperlane Raid unless we get desperate for resources. One of our Imperial players has two ISD-IIs with two flotillas. Both ISDs have Reinforced Blast Doors and he has Motti commanding his fleet. He's a smart player and would easily see the value in sitting and turtling on his side of the board because trying to chew through that much hull is difficult. And a major risk for the Rebels who would have to fly right towards the front arcs of the ISDs. Maybe we'd take down a flotilla or two if we play it right, but it'd be a big risk with the ISDs defending them.

The other player has an ISD and two Victory Star Destroyers. Again, that's a lot of hull to get through for resource points and valuable ships could be lost in the attempt.

With Show of Force, it still seems very Imperial-friendly. ISDs can whittle that station down to nothing in the blink of an eye. There's fair argument to be made that if they shoot the station, they're not shooting the Rebel ships. But I feel like the loss of the station would equalize the shots not taken at Rebel ships.

Hyperlane Raid is awful for both sides. As an Imperial, you must get your ships into the opponents deployment zone and survive there until game end. That isn't very likely considering at speed 3, you need 4 turns (in a straight line) to do that whilst always under fire and then your ships will have their rears showing to the Rebels.

Heaven forbid that you have tokens on squadrons in a 2 or 3 ship build, as they can't even score for the Imps.

Thus, Imp commanders sit on the back line at speed zero for 4 turns whilst the poor old Rebel player tries to get into range and has little hope of killing much.

The objective might actually work if the set up was normal side to side, not end to end.

Haven't played Show of Force yet, but it looks equally unbalanced.

Just now, Englishpete said:

Hyperlane Raid is awful for both sides. As an Imperial, you must get your ships into the opponents deployment zone and survive there until game end. That isn't very likely considering at speed 3, you need 4 turns (in a straight line) to do that whilst always under fire and then your ships will have their rears showing to the Rebels.

Heaven forbid that you have tokens on squadrons in a 2 or 3 ship build, as they can't even score for the Imps.

Thus, Imp commanders sit on the back line at speed zero for 4 turns whilst the poor old Rebel player tries to get into range and has little hope of killing much.

The objective might actually work if the set up was normal side to side, not end to end.

Haven't played Show of Force yet, but it looks equally unbalanced.

Thing is... Its End to End.

And its 2 Range Rulers, not One.

There are 2' separating the Deployment Zones.


That's... Basically the same as going across th eboard with Regular Deployment Zones.

About 2' of space....

3 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Thing is... Its End to End.

And its 2 Range Rulers, not One.

There are 2' separating the Deployment Zones.


That's... Basically the same as going across th eboard with Regular Deployment Zones.

About 2' of space....

That, of course, is IF the imperial player wants to try to get points for getting his ships through. Instead, he can simply force the rebel player to go into the teeth of whichever ship he chooses. It makes for a boring, but lopsided toward the imperial, game.

Understood Dras on the spacing issue, but there are options with more room to maneuverer than just driving into the teeth of the enemy, for both sides. Basically, it's a shockingly bad objective :-(

If you are 'raiding' ships for resources, surely the Imps should score for keeping ships alive, the Rebels for killing them and 40 points to the winner.

Hell, the rebels should be able to Hyperspace in all ships in a similar manner to the original Hyperspace Assault.

Something to consider...

Perhaps it is intentional that the special battle types are unbalanced. There is an asymmetry in the basing limitations, after all, and that translates into different ways of getting resources.

11 minutes ago, RobertK said:

Something to consider...

Perhaps it is intentional that the special battle types are unbalanced. There is an asymmetry in the basing limitations, after all, and that translates into different ways of getting resources.

I would hope that's the case, but with the sloppy rules in CC I do not give the developer that much credit. Too much is missing from the CC rulebook for me to blindly give them credit for perfect asymmetrical balance. The problems with the Targeting Beacons objective are pretty egregious.

We hare at the end of the second turn and both of my Hyperlane Raid just bring a total of 40 points. It cost me one of my fleet (too many scarred ship and squadron with Sato). My foe got around 140 points in two turns. And I'm not counting the point generate by my base our is base. The way we analyse all this, both of us think that those two mission are easier on the Imp side. Maybe it was on purpose but we don't see why? Not sure as a Rebel in this campaign that I will try this mission again.

I tought it was to bring the choice between easy income (Hyperlane Raid) or campaingn victory point (other missions). Those income are not that easy for Reb's.

29 minutes ago, Thraug said:

I would hope that's the case, but with the sloppy rules in CC I do not give the developer that much credit. Too much is missing from the CC rulebook for me to blindly give them credit for perfect asymmetrical balance. The problems with the Targeting Beacons objective are pretty egregious.

there are very few rules holes in this in fact I can only think of one and its not a hole it just needs a clarification. And that is unequipped upgrades. What issues are you referring to? Also what do you consider egregious about that objective it's fine.

Hyperlane Raid also hurts the Imperials, forcing them to un-scar those destroyed ships. So, the Rebels gain and the Imps lose. The Rebels lose nothing for a station being destroyed in Show of Force.

I think the only real issue is the imps can turtle at no cost to them. But its not that bad.

1 hour ago, Derpzilla88 said:

With Show of Force, it still seems very Imperial-friendly. ISDs can whittle that station down to nothing in the blink of an eye. There's fair argument to be made that if they shoot the station, they're not shooting the Rebel ships. But I feel like the loss of the station would equalize the shots not taken at Rebel ships.

Each Rebel base is only worth 20 victory pts, though.

So the Imperial force has to pass through the entire Rebel fleet to GET to the base...and said fleet they are NOT firing on in order to hit the bases. So your fleet is hitting the Imperial ships, almost unanswered, and all you have to do is kill 20 pts of ships or squadrons per base the Empire takes down, and you can still win. (IE., they take down both bases, and nothing else - but you manage to take out a single Victory...and you win)

Granted, the Imperial still gets the resources for killing the stations - but preventing them from getting the bonus 40 for winning the battle is pretty trivial to do.