Hello guys,

I've run this guy a couple of times now and im getting more and more dissapointed on his skill. As a dedicated bomber squadron his skill seems more focused on screening, and not even doing well at this actually.

We take that his skill only triggers at distance 1 of an enemy squadron, at that distance, by rules, you are engaged with that squadron so that squadron simply cannot move. His skill is useless.

Lets say enemy has grit or intel or something that even engaged would allow enemy fighters to move past Ketsu Onyo, triggering his skill of reduccing his speed by 2. Now I ask, why in the hell would you run past a dedicated bomber that is a potential threat to your ships, with a fleet cost of 22 points and 4 hull. You shoot at it, you want to take that scum down! he wont even counter back!

Are we facing the worst named skill in the game so far, besides E-wing Korran Horn non-existent skill? Are developers lacking creativity? are we facing the start of the end?

She's a girl.

She's your anti-INTEL girl.

Sure, the opponent has intel, but moves so slow he can't get out of engagement or keep up with the ship he's chasing.

The rest is just icing.

12 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

She's a girl.

She's your anti-INTEL girl.

Sure, the opponent has intel, but moves so slow he can't get out of engagement or keep up with the ship he's chasing.

The rest is just icing.

Is this answer supposed to justify its 22 fleet points cost with 4 hull? Would you spend 1/6 of your squad points just in case the enemy brings intel?

And as I said, for that cost and his bombing potential you dont run away with intel, you simply shoot her. Trust me, I flew her.

And right: is her, not him.

Well, her specialist application is Intel-insurance. So I would not take her unless I felt a need for that.

Her secondary application is bombing: she's a 2 blue bomber die, speed 4, grit, rogue, scatter ace. Not so bad.

She's +7 from a plain lancer. I think she provides plenty IF you value her special ability. If not, then she gets too expensive. But then just don't take her if you don't think she'll do good by you.

From a design perspective I think she's (her special ability) priced fairly highly, since it's a soft counter to intel. itel is both powerful and important to many bomber lists, so they can't make it too cheap either.

3 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

Well, her specialist application is Intel-insurance. So I would not take her unless I felt a need for that.

Her secondary application is bombing: she's a 2 blue bomber die, speed 4, grit, rogue, scatter ace. Not so bad.

She's +7 from a plain lancer. I think she provides plenty IF you value her special ability. If not, then she gets too expensive. But then just don't take her if you don't think she'll do good by you.

From a design perspective I think she's (her special ability) priced fairly highly, since it's a soft counter to intel. itel is both powerful and important to many bomber lists, so they can't make it too cheap either.

In my experience, by the time intel comes in handy ships and squadrons are close enough to make that -2 speed less than a "soft counter". Interl comes in play when you try to shoot ships when already engaged. If youre in the position to make use of intel before that point is because your enemy rushed his screen too far from further activation, wich is a bald and usually newbie movement.

In my experience you have to go out to Rhymer and tie him down, or he'll keep re-positioning with intel. Rebel bomber swarms are more what you're describing.

Exactly, rhymer needs to be tied down and movent 2 + medium range + intel is far enough from ketsu onyo to do a thing, specially if the rhymer ball consists in tie def, wich will make "your girl" die in the next fighter activation without any punishment -because she is not a screen dedicated fighter, surely not with that cost- freeing the rest of the bombers to move what they want.

There is no such thing as "rebel bomber swarms" if you intend to keep a cohesive fighter fleet.

8 minutes ago, xerpo said:

There is no such thing as "rebel bomber swarms" if you intend to keep a cohesive fighter fleet.

Are 13 y-wings not enough to be a swarm?

I thought the world champion was near of that.

20 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

Are 13 y-wings not enough to be a swarm?

I thought the world champion was near of that.

How does any of this concerns the main thread?

Wait what? What do you mean theres no such thing as rebel bomber swarms.

Can someone get blail in here? Apparently theres no such thing as rebel bomber swarms. My whole understanding of the rebel game has been predicated on lies. I have built my house on a foundation of falsehoods!

Kidding aside though, please clarify. I think maybe you meant something thats not coming across.

2 minutes ago, xerpo said:

How does any of this concerns the main thread?

As it stands, he's refuting a blatantly false declarative statement which speaks to a lack of understanding of the squadron game and undermines your other points regarding Ketsu's utility.

29 minutes ago, Madaghmire said:

Wait what? What do you mean theres no such thing as rebel bomber swarms.

Can someone get blail in here? Apparently theres no such thing as rebel bomber swarms. My whole understanding of the rebel game has been predicated on lies. I have built my house on a foundation of falsehoods!

Kidding aside though, please clarify. I think maybe you meant something thats not coming across.

Ill just go around all youre uselss sarcasm straight to the point and quote myself for this:

1 hour ago, xerpo said:

if you intend to keep a cohesive fighter fleet.

Of course you can run 13 Y-wing fighter fleet, that may work 1 every 10 times, if the opponet carries a balanced screen/bomber list youre doomed.

23 minutes ago, Madaghmire said:

As it stands, he's refuting a blatantly false declarative statement which speaks to a lack of understanding of the squadron game and undermines your other points regarding Ketsu's utility.

There is no point about this comment since it simply takes out of context a single stance about a discussion with someone else to make a point that is not concerning at all ketsu's capabilites or her overpriced skill, wich is the title and the main thread. This is called trolling.

I will say, Ketsu is kinda sorta useful against Intel. For +7 points (also including her defense tokens) she lets you soft counter the movement part of Intel, though it doesn't address the shooting ships while engaged part of Intel, and arguably that's the more important part. She's a tool in the toolbox. She may win you a game now against a mobile bomber ball, or she may be good in a future meta. Nebulons and VSDs are back, you never know.

1 hour ago, xerpo said:

Exactly, rhymer needs to be tied down and movent 2 + medium range + intel is far enough from ketsu onyo to do a thing, specially if the rhymer ball consists in tie def, wich will make "your girl" die in the next fighter activation without any punishment -because she is not a screen dedicated fighter, surely not with that cost- freeing the rest of the bombers to move what they want.

There is no such thing as "rebel bomber swarms" if you intend to keep a cohesive fighter fleet.

I didn't understand any of that. Really didn't. Please explain.

4 minutes ago, Nostromoid said:

I will say, Ketsu is kinda sorta useful against Intel. For +7 points (also including her defense tokens) she lets you soft counter the movement part of Intel, though it doesn't address the shooting ships while engaged part of Intel, and arguably that's the more important part. She's a tool in the toolbox. She may win you a game now against a mobile bomber ball, or she may be good in a future meta. Nebulons and VSDs are back, you never know.

Guess it will need more testing. I never used against an intel fleet yet.

Dont know why but seems like intel is going down for imperials since the defenders can ram trough your screen and bomb with the remains in late game.

3 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

I didn't understand any of that. Really didn't. Please explain.

You are suggesting that rhymmer should be tied down with ketsu. The opponent can still move at speed two, and hit at medium range, wich is hell of a distance to make ketsu useful in any way.

In the other hand if you send ketsu this way she will have no capabilities (hull points, counter) and will be too expensive to act as screen therefore you are giving away to your opponent 22 fleet points.

Im still asking, where is the point on giving a clearly anti-fighter skill to a clearly dedicated bomber with 4 hull points when you can do better screening with just two A-wings (getting bonus deployment aswell) for the exact same fleet points (22)?

Scatter.

20 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Scatter.

In the best of the cases, in wich your enemy doesent roll a single accuracy, the scatter-brace-4 hull combo allows you to take an average of 5 shots. In one of my games I've seen my Ketsu die in 2 shots from two defenders rolls 3 dmg 1accuracy (and she wasn't even screening), taking in count that the accuracy roll in a defender is 0,5 average. You can afford this combo in fighters like Tycho (16), or all the imps with scatter below that, even Shera is too high for that (17), althought her counter is worth it.

But definitely not worth in a 22 points fighter without any payback.

44 minutes ago, xerpo said:

You are suggesting that rhymmer should be tied down with ketsu. The opponent can still move at speed two, and hit at medium range, wich is hell of a distance to make ketsu useful in any way.

In the other hand if you send ketsu this way she will have no capabilities (hull points, counter) and will be too expensive to act as screen therefore you are giving away to your opponent 22 fleet points.

Im still asking, where is the point on giving a clearly anti-fighter skill to a clearly dedicated bomber with 4 hull points when you can do better screening with just two A-wings (getting bonus deployment aswell) for the exact same fleet points (22)?

The bombing is her secondary skill. Put there to make her sort of useful even if you face an opponent where her primary ability isn't super useful.

Scatter is can be useful for a squadron designed to tie up other squads.

I also wouldn't use her on her own - as you say, 2 a-wings are better for that. But maybe mixed with some A-wings, Tycho and/or Shara? Those 3 could make life very difficult for a bomber force.

Also: Rieekan (edit)

Her ability works on Tycho, too, right?

If so that's... Something at least?

When you build with Ketsu as a method of slowing down an intel ball, she's not the only piece to the puzzle. Congratulations, you've slowed down your enemy ball. You've kept them in a much more confined place then they want to be, but if you are throwing poor Ketsu alone unto the breach, then yes of course she's going to die. Anytime you are dealing intimately with a tricky girl like Ketsu, you need to bring protection. Drop in there with some X-Wings! Rebels have fantastic escort squadrons in X-Wings/the three amigos/yt-1300's, and the delivery systems to get them on point. Ketsu keeps those speed 4-5 bombers (in case of corrupter/defenders) from jumping out too far afield. And of course, as with all rebel aces, Rieekan makes her a pain to get rid of.

That said, I do think she may well be overcosted. But a speed 4 rogue bomber dropping two bomber die with a scatter token and grit also has real value.

I will say that Ketsu is one of my priority targets as a primarily Imperial player.

I've been enjoying using the Chiranau/Vector combo to jump TIE Defenders, IG88, and Mauler out of scrums at speed 3 using Relay.

Ketsu kind of nullifies this strategy a little bit, at least for jumping out and hitting other targets. Mauler just, well, mauls.

1 hour ago, xerpo said:

Guess it will need more testing. I never used against an intel fleet yet.

I mean... if you haven't used her against Intel, what basis do you even have for the efficacy of her skill? Do you face Chiraneau a lot or something?

If you don't see Intel much, there's not going to be much value in bringing a counter to intel.

About Ketsu being overpriced I'll say (and probably a lot of people won't agree) that if we take her without defense tokens and her skill she probably would cost 18 points. She has 2 hull less than a firespray but more speed and grit (which combine greatly with rogue). Add two defense token (around 2 points or more per defense token) and her skill for 4 points. We can see more expensive skills (following the same "logic"):

Holwrunner 4pts

Mithel 3pts

Tycho 1pt

Soontir 3 pts

Dutch 2pts

All after tokens. Maybe ketsu's skill is not the greatest one but I think that rebels are not paying a **** for it.

Ketsu buys you time and in my experience works best in fleets trying to capitalize on wiping carriers/all of the opponents ships. She operates kind of like Wave 1 Tycho. Yeah, she is gonna die but she'll clog up your fighter engines with her corpse.

She's durable to last more than one turn in these fleets and the ships are flying fast enough that speed 2 can't really keep up if they manage to disengage.

You have to capitalize on the maxim: 1. If you win the capital ship game (wipe your opponents ships) you win 2. You don't have to win the fighter game to win the ship game.

Conversely, she's is overpriced if you go for the normal convetional fighter game. She offers you some positioning leverage in this case but if you are trying to just wipe the opposing fighters she doesn't seem worth it.