The Bantha strongly depends on luck. If you don't roll well on your Tramples and don't draw the right command cards, the Bantha can be a sitting duck. Therefore, many good tournament players don't use the Bantha for it's inconsistancy.

But chances are higher, that you draw at least some of the right cards, and roll an average of 2 1/6 damage.

My last game against a Bantha was a mess.

My opponent had Dev. Schemes, HKs, Beast Tamer, Bantha, Gideon and all that other good stuff ...

It was on Constant Motion (Obi-Wan / Anchorhead is not released in Germany by now). I had to go for the droids, or else I would have lost anyways. 2 HKs hiding behind their deployment zone's corner made that hard anyways. The HKs scored 4 points, while I managed to keep out of range of the Bantha. Or at least I thought so. Gideon moved the Bantha for 2 spaces and used Planing. Last activation on turn 1 the Bantha moved 17 spaces (Beast Tamer, Urgency, move) and stampeded 3 of my figures. Then he had Jundland Terror, stampeded 3 figures again and then trampled them for 2 damage each. Then he had Ferocity. Then start of turn 2 (I didn't draw Take Initiative) the Bantha moved with Beast Tamer to stampede 4 figures (the Bantha had pushed them together with his other Stampedes), Crush one and then used Single Purpose to trample twice (3 and 2 damage on 3 figures each).

First Stampede = 3 damage, Jundland Stampede = 3 damage, Jundland Trample = 6 damage, Ferocity = 3 damage, last Stampede = 4 damage, Crush = 4 damage, Single Purpose Trample = 9 + 6 damage.

The Bantha moved 21 spaces on turn 1. He caused 38 damage to score lots of points 'til the first activation of turn 2. Because of the Bantha, my opponent was able to score 2 droids, which is another 8 points. (I was able to score 1).

I quit with 28:4 points. Fun, strategy, tactics = 0. We just set up, the Bantha moved in, game over.

Passing fixed some problems with the 4x4 and made 9Act obsolete. Nerfing Officers and Royal Guards made 4x4 obsolete. The new Tournament Rules fixed the Trooper-Spam / Reinforcements problem. IG-88 will be fixed soon, too.

Now, FFG, please fix the Bantha/Beast Tamer. 4x4, 9Act and Trooper-Spam combined were not as stupid as this Bantha. Have you seen the Banthas in the movies? Do you think, they seem to be faster than a Speeder and hit harder than Vader?

I'm not sure how the new rules change anything? Your opponent drew a god hand and there's not much to be done with that. How many times have you faced bantha and they rolled average and did about nine points worth of damage. How many times have they not drawn Jundland or any other good cards and done bupkis? That's how I bombed out at top 16 at Worlds: all of my power cards were at the bottom of the deck.

One NPE does not a broken card make.

QThe Bantha has been Tier 1 since it's release, there's no doubt. But previously, it could be wrecked by troopers without gaining any points for the ones that it squashed. Now, it STILL gets wrecked by troopers, but it gets points for the ones it takes with it. Seems fair to me. Unfortunately, we all sometimes get stuck on the other side of strong draws. I, too, have been squashed into pulp by the Bantha. And the Rancor. And been blasted to bits by HKs.

One day you'll be on the other end, and it'll feel great.

I forgot to mention, that he would have scored a lot less points using the old rules, because he didn't finish any group. Under the old rules, the Bantha at least had to try to finish some groups. Now you just throw him onto the opponent's figures and can be sure that it pays of.

Have you ever seen the Bantha score less than 10 points under the new rules? Even if everything goes wrong (no cards, 1 damage rolls only), Dev. Schemes and enough activations give you the last activation turn 1 and the first activation turn 2. Opponent has Take Initiative, 2nd activation turn 2. You're still dealing at least 12 damage, which equals around 8 points or more. The opponent still has to use at least 18 points worth of figures to kill the Bantha before the end of turn 2. That is, if he still has that many figures.

And actually you could just position yourself and wait for the end of turn 2 to start the Bantha after drawing these cards.
With Black Market, Planning, Jabba or R2, at least one Terminal controlled, 2 Jundland Terrors, Single Purpose, Crush, Ferocity, Urgency, Opportunistic, Fleet Footed, ... it's very rare, that you don't draw any of these cards.

But in the end, it comes down to luck either way. Either you draw some good cards and roll at least 2 damage or you don't. How can that be good for a strategy game.

The rules have been changed before, because 4x4, 9Act, Vader's Finest and Trooper-Spam gave people a bad gaming experience. Actually, none of these lists ever gave me a bad gaming experience like the Bantha does every game. It has nothing to do with strategy, it's just drawing at least average cards and rolling at least average results and then you win.

Well, can you spread out more in anticipation of the double move at the end of round 1? Jundland terror first turn is rough for sure, though.

-ryanjamal

I mentioned the scoring in my post above. Defense against the Bantha is paramount. You have to spread. Remember that if he stops on top of a figure, he can't move again that activation. So don't give him an opportunity to do that. Make him use that terrible ranged attack instead of trampling 3-4 guys at once.

And as I said above, Troopers still wreck the Bantha. Lots of medium damage attacks clear it rather quickly. A Stormtrooper can do 4-5 damage without rerolls or a defense die. Even after the rules change, troopers are still the best counter to it, because they come in groups and have decent range. You just can't bunch them up.

I see where you're coming from - I've had a game like that. You can spread out, the spy cards can negate a lot of what they're doing and the maps do make a bit of difference. I do think the new figures with 12-15 health also combat this. Maybe you get some serious licks in with the bantha, but Jedi Luke and Obiwan can almost take down a bantha together in one turn. Most of the remaining figures after a bantha are dead are not going to be able to handle a half strength Jedi Luke because he can kill 2 of their guys every activation. I'm surprised you're mentioning this now though, as The Bantha list has not really changed with the new characters

1 hour ago, buckero0 said:

I'm surprised you're mentioning this now though, as The Bantha list has not really changed with the new characters

I always thought, that the Bantha is a little bit too strong. To be more correctly, that the Beast Tamer is waaay overpowered (in my opinion). I wrote that several times before. With everything else being nerfed (high activation lists by passing, 4x4 by a direct nerf, Troopers by Points-per-kill), I think it's about time to nerf the Bantha, or at least the Beast Tamer. Troopers were an answer to the Bantha, but they are not as strong as they used to be.

I'm always careful using the term "overpowered". But would you still use the Beast Tamer, if it was two points? Or even three? I think so. And in my book, this is the definition of a single piece being overpowered.

Maybe I need to spread my figures out a little bit more. Maybe it was a lot of bad luck in a single game (perfect mission, dice and cards for the Bantha). But in any game with the Bantha, everything is about the Bantha. There are 71 other points on the table, that just react to the Bantha. This is too much. And above all, this isn't fun.

Well, everything is about the Bantha, but just for the first two turns. It should go down by then, and so the game is really about what's left after the wreckage. The Bantha is powerful if you draw your command cards in time, but if you don't you're going to draw a lot of useless cards, instead of otehr lists where every card might give you an advantage.

It's powerful, but it isn't broken, IMO. But it definitely is swingy. I've played against experienced players and destroyed them because the Bantha couldn't do enough and the rest of my list was stronger than his. I've also experienced the opposite. I get that that's frustrating, but over time I think it balances out.

-ryanjamal

Bantha's and beast are not OP at all - you just have to know how to play against them. You are playing against one of the best possible moves/card combos that you could ever see with the Bantha and doing so without taking the neccessary precautions.

1) Always assume at Bantha + BT can get into your deployment zone - 15 movement without command cards is nothing to sneeze at.

2) Always assume the bantha will go last and that will have Jundland terror and/or Take initiative (or negation if they will gain initiative).

3) You've got to spread out some, black walled corners are your friends.

4) Realize the bantha is going to do a lot of damage, but its a one trick pony - it will typically die the very next round. It cannot hide and it is typically in the heart of your deployment with 0 defense. The bantha players 1 hope is to either have earned its point value already or to have broken you enough that it lives.

5) I've seen the same sort of combo with Son of Skywalker, take initiative, and urgency with Jedi Luke in round 1 - this is just a result of poor anticipation and a whole lot of luck. If you don't have the cards/abilities to counter these things, then you have to play defensively to them (not open that door, spread out, play a bit timidly).

6) Once it does its run into your lines, hit with everything you've got - drop it as fast as you can.

Yeah, Banthas aren't overpowered. Now they just actually earn points for the junk that they kill, whereas before you could easily be at 0-9 when your bantha dies because one trooper is left and reinforcements are on the way.

Also, and very popular in the meta now, Jedi Luke and Obi-Wan attacking a Bantha is a dead Bantha. Jedi Luke can kill a Bantha BY HIMSELF with Son of Skywalker.

Also have to take into account the map you were playing on. That specific mission plays right into the bantha. The hallway is supposed to a magnet and blood bath. But in this matchup it probably would have been better to send some units through middle of map to split his attention. Leaving less value for the bantha near the hall. Less clogging of your guys. Less mass destruction.

What's that your bantha can only hit one of my guys? Sucks to be a bantha. Then you have the option to come back and slaughter it or move forward into the back line of the opponent. Kite it.

We also don't know what your list was that could help.

I know you're a really good player but I think the bantha is just getting in your head. Practice against someone and let them have the perfect hand every time so you're ready.

If you haven't seen it, I believe the top 8 game from worlds was the same map but pick up the droids mission and Kenny beat Jesse's bantha with a twins/Obi team. With spy cards - which I think are insane, but that's just because they get in my head (and Blaise is stupid). But you can watch that video and get some more ideas. Just ignore the commentary though. It's pretty bad

With the new rules the Bantha did get a little bit better. One of the advantages fighting against one before was that even if you suffered damage you could go ahead in victory points as long as you didn't lose an activation, and unfortunately that is gone now. A committed Bantha was always going to kill of 2-4 figures, or maim a large portion of your army, now they just get the points trade off when it dies. With the new release and the rules change it is going to take some time to get used to the changes, eventually things will settle down. Like what Mastercheifspliff was saying, don't let it get too much into your head. The new Jedi luke is slaughtering my attempts to counter him as rebels, but im going to figure out something without bringing a Luke of my own.

Remember that Massive figures hurt Banthas quite a bit by blocking them, and now we have 4 of them to use(poor rebels, you are still my favorite faction). Stunning Banthas is great as it can prevent Beast Tamer from giving double movement with a Trample, or it can stop the movement of a Jundland Terror. Don't open doors for Banthas, only open them when you will have an attacking advantage over them. Spies can frustrate Bantha players immensely, as they keep losing the cards that they need to be effective. The command cards: Dirty Trick, Disable, Provoke, Slippery Target, and Parting Blow are all great cards to use against Bantha players if you can get them into your lists.

And sometimes Bantha players do just draw everything that they need to cause you pain, but most of the time they are just getting by with just a little bit.

Hi DerBaer,

It is my understanding that you are a very good player, I'll not pretend to try to offer advice on how to play against various figures.

Instead, I would merely echo what ThatJakeGuy said:

5 hours ago, ThatJakeGuy said:

Your opponent drew a god hand and there's not much to be done with that.

The situation that you described, your opponent drew Planning, Jundland, and Urgency, used Planning to draw Ferocity and Single Purpose, then drew Crush. (Or whatever order he did it in). That is the ridiculous hand, and if my friend was telling me about this match and said he drew that, I'd question if it were true or not. Nobody's that lucky.

Same thing could happen with any good figure..., what if he was running Jedi Luke, and managed to draw some combination of Son of Skywalker, Pummel, Force Rush, Force Surge, Urgency, and Take Initiative? He would run in and wreck your squad.

Could be running Vader and pull Urgency, Force Rush, Dark Lord of the Sith, Lure of the Dark Side, Force Lightning, blah blah blah, etc.

If your opponent pulls the gorgeous dream hand on a map that forces you into a narrow corridor, then that sucks, but it doesn't necessarily mean that the unit is broken.

You were probably just venting.

I have to add, that it was one of the best players I know. He already beat me with this list in the semi-finals in the german national championships and on various other tournaments. Especially his Bantha is in my head and in my worst nightmares ...

... and yeah, maybe I was just venting ... at least a little bit.

Edit: My 1000th post!

31 minutes ago, DerBaer said:

... and yeah, maybe I was just venting ... at least a little bit.

Edit: My 1000th post!

Congrats on 1000!

I've been to a Regional (14 Players) yesterday. I played double Bantha. It was ridiculous. My first game was won after my first activation on round two. I lost in the final game against a very, very good player just because of some bad luck.

On ‎31‎.‎01‎.‎2017 at 0:25 PM, DerBaer said:

Now, FFG, please fix the Bantha/Beast Tamer. 4x4, 9Act and Trooper-Spam combined were not as stupid as this Bantha.

But to correct myself, it's not the Bantha. The real problem is the Beast Tamer.

I'd love to read a write up of your games if you get the notion. I know you told me once you lived and played in a pretty competitive environment, and would be interested in the lists you played, how you played them and the the ones you played against

I've honestly yet to have trouble in the new meta killing a Bantha. Jedi Luke, Gammos, Onar, Greedo can absolutely slaughter the buggers. Add in a stun and their threat is even further reduced.

On 13.02.2017 at 7:18 PM, mellowthello said:

I've honestly yet to have trouble in the new meta killing a Bantha. Jedi Luke, Gammos, Onar, Greedo can absolutely slaughter the buggers. Add in a stun and their threat is even further reduced.

I think the issue might be that from what I understand DerBaer operates in the 'German skirmish meta', which most of the time is a wave (or two?) behind what is available to play in 'mainstream' US/rest of EU skirmish play. Hence pretty much everything you are listing above isn't there to counter the Bantha.

With the new scoring rules in place but with a different map rotation and without the impact Kenobi and the Jabba wave had on skirmish play elsewhere, the German-speaking world is quite literally playing a completely different game at this point.

59 minutes ago, player1750031 said:

I think the issue might be that from what I understand DerBaer operates in the 'German skirmish meta', which most of the time is a wave (or two?) behind what is available to play in 'mainstream' US/rest of EU skirmish play. Hence pretty much everything you are listing above isn't there to counter the Bantha.

With the new scoring rules in place but with a different map rotation and without the impact of Kenobi and the Jabba wave had on on skirmish play elsewhere, the German-speaking world is quite literally playing a completely different game at this point.

That's not confusing at all when lots of people get on here and aren't aware of it

Reminds me of someone I saw posting on facebook a couple days ago about Jedi Luke OP and it wasn't until about 10-15 replies by people that it came out they were playing random maps and the same map like 5 times in a row, which totally changed the discussion.

We are two waves behind, that's right. No Kenobi, no Jabba, no Luke, ... and Nelvaania is still in.

I had double Bantha, HKs, double Ugnaught, Gideon, 3PO, Dev. Sch. and Beast Tamer.

I played against croos-trained Troopers, other Banthas, lost in Swiss against Rebels (eSabs and eEchoes) because of a mistake on my side, and lost against double HKs/double eTusken in the final game...