11 hours ago, Mediocrevan said:

B: replaces the turret slot, but turns their primary weapon into a turret.

Oooooooohhhhhh. I love this idea!

Very, very good!

Keep astromech, add crew, drop turret but make primary weapon a turret. Awesome!

38 minutes ago, pickirk01 said:

It would be easy enough to still add turret gunner minded crew to the game within the themes of the titles.

BTL-S3

Title, Y-Wing only - If you equip a turret secondary weapon, you MUST also equip a 'Y-Wing Only' crew upgrade, paying its squad point cost.

Then you make 2-3 'Y-Wing Only' crew that have abilities specific to turret usage (priced appropriately of course).

*Unique Crew 1 - When performing an attack with a Turret secondary weapon treat the attack as if it were in your primary firing arc (anti auto-thruster)

*Unique Crew 2 - After performing an attack with an Ion Cannon Turret, assign the defender one Ion token (so if you miss, it still ions and if its a large ship, you can get 2 ions with 1 hit)

*Unique Crew 3 - When performing a Turret Secondary Weapon attack at range 1, you may roll one additional die. (Sorry TLT's but this one is for the little guys)

With an implementation like that you'd just add three titles instead.

3 hours ago, Blue Five said:

Crew slots tend to go to ships with crew members that aren't doing something else. The TIE/sf has no crew slot because its second crew member is a rear gunner. The TIE phantom does because the co-pilot doesn't do anything else. The ARC has one crew slot because of its three crew one is a pilot and one is a tail gunner.

The BTL-S3 is a two-seater Y-wing where the second crew member operates the turret. It's actually represented perfectly within the game's conventions by the the untitled Y-wing, hence me constantly calling the turreted variant by that name.

This is always the argument.

To my mind, the lack of a specific "better than average" crew card could mean the gunner is represented.

However, consider the Falcon. No upgrade cards = primary weapon turret. Presumably someone is manning the guns. Two somebodies, in fact.

Add the Luke Skywalker crew upgrade card: his art shows him manning the Falcon's guns, and his ability makes him a better than average Falcon gunner. To my mind, you've swapped out "stock footage gunner" with "better gunner with some extra skillz".

I realize art doesn't dictate rules; I am merely saying that Y-wings can have two seats and sometimes somebody cool rides in there. We assume the adding of Luke to the Falcon causes the replacement of one of the uninteresting gunners. Someone was there before you add the crew upgrade card (and, indeed, that someone stays there if you choose not to add the crew card).

One canon source shows Luke flying a Y-wing with R2-D2 in the droid socket and C-3PO in the back seat. Or Hobbie and Wes. Or Horton and Kin Kian. Or Telsij and Karie Neth.

There should be two types of Y-wing, because...there are two types of Y-wing.

The TIE/sf is a funny case, too. It should also have a crew slot and the ability to carry a "better than average" gunner.

In fact, going by canon, the only people we've ever seen flying it were Poe as the pilot card and Finn as the optional crew upgrade. That's an argument for a different thread.

There was a cool rebels episode where Ezra and crew liberated some y wings from a storage yard. Chopper is seen remotely piloting several y wings, I remember thinking how cool would that be in the x wing game. Imagine something kinda like 1g88 but instead it's chopper and y wings.

Chopper has so much personality in the show, id love for him to have a better role in x wing.

Rex piloting an y wing with his suppressive fire condition would be sick I think. Suppressive fire, tlt, stress bot; I needs it!

Quote

There should be two types of Y-wing, because...there are two types of Y-wing.

There are. There's an S3 with a crewed turret and an A4 with a locked linked turret.

FFG tends to not represent lone gunners as crew slots and I'm fairly sure Frank Brooks has said this. The Falcon gets two slots because it's full of extra seats. The TIE/sf and Y-wing have a single gunner who's occupied operating the gun.

48 minutes ago, Blue Five said:

There are. There's an S3 with a crewed turret and an A4 with a locked linked turret.

FFG tends to not represent lone gunners as crew slots and I'm fairly sure Frank Brooks has said this. The Falcon gets two slots because it's full of extra seats. The TIE/sf and Y-wing have a single gunner who's occupied operating the gun.

Understand but disagree.

A thought experiment concerning the Falcon and it's crew slots.

I can imagine extra chairs in the Falcon's cockpit. Some crew upgrade cards (Lando, C-3PO, Chewie, maybe) probably sit there to begin with. When Chewie "does his thing", he probably runs to the back to bury himself up to his armpits in fixing the Falcon.

What about Luke, the upgrade card? Or the upgrade called "Gunner"? I would suggest that they aren't in the co-pilot seat; but rather they are manning one of the quads, in the gunwell.

However, not having them aboard doesn't mean the quads are unmanned.

The ship has a primary weapon turret, so somone is presumably firing it.

For the Y-wing, I would think that using just a Y-wing pilot card (no upgrades) is indeterminate as to which model we're talking about. It may be a two-seater with just the pilot. It doesn't matter, really.

Add a turret upgrade and now we're presumably talking about a BTL-S3 with a generic backseat gunner.

Add the BTL-A4 title and we're obviously talking about the single seater, wherein the pilot has to fix the turret in place.

Why not allow for the back seater to be someone specific? Someone fun? Someone who performs slightly better than the stock footage guy, for a price? Even someone who does something else, besides just manning the gun?

I actually think the turret choice (or lack thereof) should be separate from the choice of whether to include a second seat.

BTL-S3 Title (x points) Y-wing only. Add a crew slot to the Y-wing.

Also add the modification card "Y-wing Longprobe" to add a system upgrade slot.

This would allow you to make:

BTL-S3 (2 seats, turret, astromech)

BTL-A4 (1 seat, fixed forward turret, astromech)

BTL-A4 LP (1seat, fixed forward turret, astromech, system upgrade)

Honestly, I like that the Y-Wing has no EPT. It makes it feel unique, while also showing that it's a little outdated. There's an astromech for EPT, if you really want it.

Also, I'm in the 'no crew slot' camp. If not for the Gunner card, there would be little debate as to the passive/extraneous role most crew represent.

I do, however, fully support a new paint job (I don't need an armored sculpt or anything like that) and more pilots.

Are there any turret-slot ships that shouldn't have gunner options?

Perhaps the answer is:

Wes Jansen: *This crew may be assigned to any ship with a turret slot, and does not occupy a crew slot.*

i like the idea of the btl-3, my idea is to balance it by taking the astromech slot, like bomb loadout. as the gunner is effectively doing the astromech's job in combat

I also love the btl3 idea, and I don't think it needs the turret limited or to lose the astromech it just needs to be costed appropriately

I miss my old Kenner Y-Wing.

7 minutes ago, Verlaine said:

I miss my old Kenner Y-Wing.

I have one still, but it's missing one engine spar.

A great analogy is the TIE Phantom. It lists the same thing as the BTL-S3 Y-wing for it's "Crew" entry in Wookieepedia (and elsewhere):

1 pilot

1 copilot/gunner

How does the reported developer's logic work in this case?

Both have 2 crew members, one of which is a "gunner". In the Phantom, that seat can apparently be occupied by someone else. Same should be able to hold for Y-wing.

1 hour ago, mad mandolorian said:

i like the idea of the btl-3, my idea is to balance it by taking the astromech slot, like bomb loadout. as the gunner is effectively doing the astromech's job in combat

No version of Y-wing does this, however.

36 minutes ago, evanger said:

A great analogy is the TIE Phantom. It lists the same thing as the BTL-S3 Y-wing for it's "Crew" entry in Wookieepedia (and elsewhere):

1 pilot

1 copilot/gunner

How does the reported developer's logic work in this case?

Both have 2 crew members, one of which is a "gunner". In the Phantom, that seat can apparently be occupied by someone else. Same should be able to hold for Y-wing.

The Phantom has only fixed forward facing cannons so the question is what does the gunner actually do on that ship.

Gunner/copilot in this case will be more copilot than gunner I think.

Unfortunately as much as I would love to see more pilots for both the rebel and scum versions of the Y-wing, I don't see it happening. They have already said the Y-wing has received the aces treatment form The Most Wanted pack. At the time the Y-wing was seeing a lot of play with the TLT turret. Even though this is the only ship out of the first two waves that only has 4 pilots in a faction, it has seen enough play that I doubt they would consider it for a boost in game. I hope I'm wrong because it was this ship not the X-wing that captured me when I first saw the films. But only time will tell.

6 minutes ago, eMeM said:

The Phantom has only fixed forward facing cannons so the question is what does the gunner actually do on that ship.

Gunner/copilot in this case will be more copilot than gunner I think.

Same thing gunners do in modern attack helicopters - operate the weapons systems while the pilot is busy flying. The Phantom might be very difficult to fly and require all the pilots attention to get where it needs to be, so the gunner is the one tracking targets and pulling the triggers.

Ships with crew slots are more analogous to two-seater jets like F-14s and A-6s IMO, where the second seat is for a RIO or electronics operator.

5 hours ago, Vineheart01 said:

NEVER underestimate the power of a barrelrolling TLT. Horton with Expertise, TLT, and VTs would be dangerous.

I'm running this in my X-Wing league at the moment with an Expertise Rey and it's been a blast to fly. He almost always gets 3 hits for each TLT attack and can barrel roll either out of arcs or into range 2-3 to use the TLT against opponents. You lose the astromech slot for R2-D6, but so far its been worth it.

6 hours ago, kris40k said:

1.) What EPT would you use with Horton to make him usable instead of using him as a stressbot?

2.) Why don't you do that with R2-D6 (since we're not using him as a stressbot)?

Expertise + TLT

Now what's he going to do with his action, right? Add vectored thrusters to roll around.

But what's he going to do with his free astromech slot?

Maybe give him R2 to add many greens in case you get stressed because that's Expertise's weak spot.
Maybe give him R5P9 and he can regen shield on the focus action that he's otherwise going to use defensively.
Maybe give him BB8 to roll around before he moves to open up the - sh*tty - dial.
Maybe a combination with R3 would be interesting. You roll 6 dice after all, maybe you can afford to cancel one focus because 2 hits are enough to deal damage.
Maybe go with R7. You can use your TL defensively because you have Horton's ability and Expertise.
Maybe use Targeting Astromech and now you can afford to go for a red movement. That stops Expertise, but you'll get a TL to reroll the focus. The blanks can be rerolled anyway!
Maybe you go with M9G8 and assist your wingman or modify enemy dice.
And finally there's always R2D2 to regen on green moves.

Interesting to me is that several Astromechs are suddenly usable on a TLTHorton+Expertise. I personally like the ideas with R3 and R7 because you already have offensive power. But yeah, being able to use the Astromech slot for any of these 8 options would vastly improve Horton, making him an interesting choice next to Dash, Miranda, Corran, Kanan or Norra.

As others have mentioned, Horton with TLT and VT is very effective, even more so that Expertise is available. The point I was getting to is that I am just wondering why you don't just try that with R2-D6? While having the EPT and an available Astro slot is nice, my belief is that Horton is already playable.

PS: Don't put BB-8 or R2-D2 on a Y-Wing, they only have a green 1 and 2 Forward, which makes those droids garbage on a Y-wing. Also don't put R3 on anything, it only activates off primary attacks, so it would not work with a TLT Y-Wing

1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

Expertise + TLT

Now what's he going to do with his action, right? Add vectored thrusters to roll around.

But what's he going to do with his free astromech slot?

...
Maybe a combination with R3 would be interesting. You roll 6 dice after all, maybe you can afford to cancel one focus because 2 hits are enough to deal damage.
...
Interesting to me is that several Astromechs are suddenly usable on a TLTHorton+Expertise. I personally like the ideas with R3 and R7 because you already have offensive power. But yeah, being able to use the Astromech slot for any of these 8 options would vastly improve Horton, making him an interesting choice next to Dash, Miranda, Corran, Kanan or Norra.

R3 is primary weapon only.

And don't forget R7-T1 to Boost and Target Lock, though TL mostly redundant on him so this is more of an arc dodging trick.

3 hours ago, Kharnvor said:

Same thing gunners do in modern attack helicopters - operate the weapons systems while the pilot is busy flying. The Phantom might be very difficult to fly and require all the pilots attention to get where it needs to be, so the gunner is the one tracking targets and pulling the triggers.

Ships with crew slots are more analogous to two-seater jets like F-14s and A-6s IMO, where the second seat is for a RIO or electronics operator.

Gunners on modern attack helicopters operate guided missiles and swivel mounted guns.

Fixed armament, like gunpods and unguided rockets (and guns on some helicopters, like Ka-52, Mi-24 variants with P in the name) is operated by the pilot, it makes sense, really, when the aiming is done by pointing the whole craft the person who does the aiming, ie pilot, is in a better position to pull the trigger.

7 hours ago, pickirk01 said:

R3 is primary weapon only.

And don't forget R7-T1 to Boost and Target Lock, though TL mostly redundant on him so this is more of an arc dodging trick.

Thanks, last time I looked at the card was back in September, because it's so bad... ;_;

10 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

.Interesting to me is that several Astromechs are suddenly usable on a TLTHorton+Expertise. I personally like the ideas with R3 and R7 because you already have offensive power. But yeah, being able to use the Astromech slot for any of these 8 options would vastly improve Horton, making him an interesting choice next to Dash, Miranda, Corran, Kanan or Norra.

Does Horton have another way of gaining Expertise, other than R2-D6?

10 minutes ago, Verlaine said:

Does Horton have another way of gaining Expertise, other than R2-D6?

Not that I'm aware of, no.

I mean technically Expertise is the same as 2 focus that can be used offensively and that does not take an action, so you can still use them on both TLTshots when bumped or on any other condition that prevents an action with the exception of stress.

So it is the same as recieving 2 focus from Jyn, or somehow a combination of Garven Dreis, Kyle Katarn and Esege Tuketu, IIRC. Of course all of those have their own problems.