Question: can you target a 1x1blocking terrain space with flamethrower (choose a space within 2 spaces).

Reasoning for: you could target a figure with an attack if it was standing on that space and you can drop cams on those spaces in the Isb headquarters surveillance mission.

Reasoning against: you can't count spaces through blocking terrain and the rrg says spaces that share only an edge that is blocking terrain are not adjacent, except for attacking.

If you could answer and also explain why dropping cams on those spaces is legal?

Thanks

The rules about figures and objects in blocking terrain spaces are a mess. Unfortunately a rewrite is not easy -- I know because I once tried it... (Maybe now, with some new knowledge and experience it would be easier.)

Rules as written no. You can only draw line of sight into a blocking terrain space for the purposes of attacking a figure or object in that space.

For things to work in a lot of missions, figures and objects in blocking terrain spaces make the space adjacent to a space it shares an edge with for various abilities, such as attacking and interacting. Also empty blocking terrain spaces need to be adjacent to allow movement of Mobile and Massive figures.

Other than that, there is no support from the rules or from previous rulings or how things are obviously intended to work, to allow other abilities to target blocking spaces.

What mission does "cams" refer to? While figures cannot enter blocking or impassible terrain spaces, or move or be pushed through blocking or impassible terrain edges, those restrictions do not apply to tokens / objects. So, if the mission rule does not explicitly disallow it, objects can be moved regardless of terrain, although with blocking terrain you can use the non-adjacent argument - but impassible terrain spaces and terrain edges are fair game. (How objects can be placed or dropped depends on the wording of the mission rules.)

If tokens/objects are placed on blocking terrain at setup, it is assumed you can be adjacent to them for whatever ability the mission rules give them. (Like interact with terminals in blocking terrain spaces in the Battle of Hoth campaign mission.)

The cams is from the mission "reconnaissance" on the Isb headquarters map. At the end of each round you place acam in an adjacent space. It was ruled that you can place cams in 1x1 blocking spaces. It doesn't make any sense given the rules as written though so I wonder if that affects the interpretation for flamethrower.

It's a grey area (or a hole in the rules) though, so rulings may be made and later reversed. As long as both players knowingly play by the same rules from the start of the mission there should not be an issue.

I still don't think it affects how Flamethrower should or will be ruled, because there isn't a figure or object involved.

Maybe I'll need to take on the task of consolidating the knowledge of existing and needed blocking terrain rules some of these days.

That would be very helpful. The blocking terrain section in the rrg is like two sentences long.

For Captain Terro's Flamethrower ability you would reference "Counting Spaces" on page 9. So for Terro's ability, a Grenadier card, Farmboy Luke's re-roll ability, etc. you could not count space through or over blocking terrain. All these effects must count spaces around the blocking terrain square(s).

For the placement of mission tokens, I think the appropriate rule is Place on page 20. In the mission "Reconnaissance" on the ISB map, you are 'placing' mission tokens at the end of the round. Under the Place rule it mentions, "many effects place figures or tokens on specific spaces of the map." All the bullets under this rule go on to restrict how figures are placed such as, "A player cannot choose to place a figure in a space where it cannot end its movement such as...blocking terrain." So according to this rule, you could not place a figure on blocking terrain, but a mission token is not restricted in the same way since all the bullets under Place only reference "figures."

The argument was not being able to place tokens / objects on blocking terrain - that is not forbidden.

The argument was about the blocking space not being adjacent to the figure before the token is placed, so it would not be a valid space to place the token.

ISB headquarters Reconaissance reads: End of each round: each player may place one of his holocams in a space adjacent to his figure. RRG says: "Two spaces that share only an edge that is a wall, blocking terrain, or a door are not adjacent" and "Blocking terrain is represented by a solid red line surrounding a space of the map. Figures cannot enter, be pushed into, count spaces through, or trace line of sight through blocking terrain". However it was ruled that you can place holocams on blocking terrain spaces. So to me there is a difference between blocking terrain that is surrounded by solid red and blocking terrain that is just a line, such as the Cantina tile from twin shadows. My interpretation right now is is: you can't count spaces through blocking terrain but you can count spaces INTO the first square of a surrounded blocking terrain. That would allow you to target 1x1 spaces for things like flamethrower or grenade, allow mobile units sitting on those spaces to reroll with Luke's reroll ability or be targetted by shock lance (choose a figure within 2 spaces, dewback rider).

I would count that as a mission specific ruling rather than a general rule....

brettpkelly said:

you can't count spaces through blocking terrain but you can count spaces INTO the first square of a surrounded blocking terrain

Yes, that is how attacking figures on blocking spaces work.

But the mission rule requires adjacency of an empty blocking terrain space.

Like I said, regardless of the definition of adjacency, blocking spaces that share an edge can/must objects or figures on blocking space can sometimes be adjacent for things to work. So far we don't have a full list or know what else this implies. We know the spaces are adjacent for attacking into and from, for interacting with objects into and from, for mobile and massive figure movement, and now placing objects in this mission .

It is also possible that rulings are reversed if they end up being inconsistent with the rules as written or as intended.

Do you know how far 'above' the ruling came from?

I'm pretty sure they were using the Holocam ruling at worlds so I assume it came from far above. I wasnt thereso someone can correct me if this is incorrect. Pretty sure the finals were on this mission

8 hours ago, a1bert said:

Yes, that is how attacking figures on blocking spaces work.

But the mission rule requires adjacency of an empty blocking terrain space.

Like I said, regardless of the definition of adjacency, blocking spaces that share an edge can/must sometimes be adjacent for things to work. So far we don't have a full list or know what else this implies. We know the spaces are adjacent for attacking into and from, for interacting with objects into and from, for mobile and massive figure movement, and now placing objects in this mission.

It is also possible that rulings are reversed if they end up being inconsistent with the rules as written or as intended.

I agree with this. Blocking terrain is not considered adjacent is the thing we should be focused on

I'm surprised there hasn't been a ruling on this for grenade before. This is how I'd rewrite the rules:

Solid red lines that do not form enclosed spaces are considered blocking walls. You cannot count spaces through or draw line of sight through blocking walls. Massive figures or large figures with mobile can end their movement on top of blocking walls. Massive and mobile units can move through blocking walls. Spaces that share only an edge that is a blocking wall are not adjacent.

Tile spaces that are fully enclosed by either solid red or a combination of solid red and black lines are considered blocking terrain. You cannot count spaces through or draw line of sight through blocking terrain. You can count spaces into and draw line of sight into one square of blocking terrain. Spaces that share an edge with blocking terrain are considered adjacent to the blocking terrain space.

You cannot draw line of sight or count spaces from one regular space to another diagonal regular space which goes through a diagonal that connects any combination of walls, blocking walls and blocking terrain. These spaces are not considered adjacent.

Movement of mobile or massive units, abilities that place figures x spaces away, and abilities that grant "move x spaces" ignore the counting spaces and adjacency rules for blocking walls and blocking terrain.

End rules.

Whew! I didn't think it would be that hard when I started writing it. The section about those diagonals could use some polishing but i thinkyou guys get what I mean. Basically jet troopers on 1x1 spaces should not be immune from being targeted by shock lance.

New FAQ... can't put those holocams on the blocking terrain square no more. Not even mobile figures.

The relevant take from this is:

A space with blocking terrain is not adjacent to any other space . (And a figure or object is not adjacent to a blocking space.)

Also, each space is considered separately. This is said on the last page of the FAQ.

9 hours ago, perthling said:

New FAQ... can't put those holocams on the blocking terrain square no more. Not even mobile figures.

Actually, you never could. The only reason anyone have been doing otherwise is because a referee mistakenly allowed it at Worlds - a decision later reversed.