The current hot topic on the rules forum is about CC and upgrading/replacing ships, squadrons and upgrades. As many of you have noticed, many players can find themselves stuck with ships and squadrons that cannot be replaced without intentionally committing suicide mid-battle. This can be especially frustrating when trying new or unusual equipment in the interest of a fun, friendly and thematic game.

I am known for openly questioning suggestions. That is because I want to explain my reasoning and want a counter-agrument that can take that into account. I am very interested in your suggestions, even if my responses may sometimes feel defensive.

These following house rules are something I've whipped off after a few days on thinking about this issue. I wanted to create a set of rules that would allow players to readjust their fleets without enabling fleets to be custom-tailored to the next fight every single round. I also wanted to preserve the feel of important, unique characters remaining a part of a specific fleet for the duration of a campaign. Finally, I wanted the ability to hold back rare and valuable ships and squadrons when they were in danger of being destroyed and players don't have the resources to refit them. This is balanced by the fact that these will not be available until they can be reintroduced at a fleet cost. Instead of valuable major ships and squadrons being gone at the end, instead you're more likely to see them disappear for a few games which will have an even greater impact on your campaign.

I want to say that these suggestions are entirely separate and not influenced in any official capacity from FFG or anyone else. These are just based on my observations of how my own and several other CC games are going.

1: Resetting a fleet: Players must declare they are resetting a fleet before refitting ships, or purchasing, transferring, equipping or un-equipping any upgrades.

2: Refit Costs: Ships may periodically go into dock to repair damage and get critical system upgrades. Any time a ship would pay to become unscarred, it may un-equip upgrades. Ship titles cannot be transferred or un-equipped for any reason. A ship may pay a refit cost to become unscarred even if it is not currently scarred.

3: Un-equipped upgrades: Each un-equipped upgrade must be either assigned to a fleet or discarded before the next mission can be declared. If assigned to a fleet, they count toward the fleet point total of that fleet. If discarded, they are no longer available to any fleets and no longer count towards any fleet costs, but may be repurchased at full price.

4: Unique upgrades: Commanders and other unique upgrades may be equipped or un-equipped like any other upgrade. However, Titles cannot be un-equipped from a ship for any reason and may not be transferred to other ships for any reason. A unique upgrade that is either discarded or lost through combat cannot be repurchased by any fleet.

5: Ships: Ships may be placed in dock for no cost. A docked ship may either be held in reserve for a future battle, or discarded. A docked ship must pay the refit cost before it can be fielded again, even if it has not been scarred. A docked flagship must reassign the Commander to another ship in the fleet.

6: Squadrons: Squadrons may be placed in dock at no cost, as though they were ships. Squadrons may be docked at no cost, but must pay the refit cost to be returned to the fleet, even if they have not been scarred. Unique squadrons which are discarded may not be repurchased by any fleet.

Nicely laid out, and pretty much how we do it.

We play a slightly harder line where any non unique squad or non unique upgrade unequipped is simply removed and would need to be repurchased if they want it later.

Uniques discarded are lost forever.

I'll double check in a few hours, but this should be the effect.

Unique anything should be gone permanently. I've completely removed the ability to share non-unique upgrades, so you can either keep them against point cap or get rid of them.

Are docks fleet specific, or faction-wide? (I.e. I dock an VSD that I no longer want. can you pay the refit cost & undock it?) Given your follow-on comment about removing the ability to share non-uniques, I assume that docks are fleet specific.

Does rule 2 mean that the only time you can un-equip upgrades is when you send a ship into dock? So, if you wanted to move APTs from unnamed Glad #457 to Demolisher after round 1, you would have to dock GSD457, pay the refit cost to undock GSD457, and then equip the APT to Demo. As I understand it, the current rules are "move upgrade from ship #1 to ship #2 for free" Can you equip upgrades onto a ship without docking it?

Does rule 3 mean that upgrades on docked ships must be moved to active ships prior to battle? What if I have no ships that can take that upgrade (I docked my MC80 with leading shots, but only have Nebs left in my fleet)

Does rule 5 mean that squadrons may not dock? (treated like upgrades, rule 3 says upgrades must be assigned or discarded. probably not, since 5 states that you can re-equip squadrons by paying the upgrade price. Since you can't unequip squads without docking them, then you must be able to dock them.)

It would seem reasonable to me that docked ships could retain upgrades while docked. Docks should also be able to hold squadrons. However, that raises the option of piling all sorts of unwanted equipment on your docked hangar queen, and stripping it off to refit your fleet in later rounds. Or having enough starfighters that you can shift from a space-superiority wing to a heavy bomber wing to a no-squad list. (dock all squadrons, undock Devastator)

goals of these rules:

enabling fleet adjustments without intentional suicides. - OK, achieved by allowing discards/docking during management phase.

allowing damaged uniques to rest until you can afford to repair them. - sure, seems reasonable. But, if you can't afford to refit the unique, it seems like you would be unable to build enough of a fleet to challenge your opponent, leading to more damage next round?

Maintain flavor of unique upgrades: I don't see any changes from the rules as written, other than clarifying that discarded uniques are gone as if they had been killed while scarred.

preventing tailoring fleets to future fights: I'm not understanding what your goal is, and how these rules achieve it. The only change to fleet-tailoring is that I must spend a ships refit cost to remove upgrades from that ship. But is trading upgrades between ships in the same fleet going to help anyone tailor to their next opponent? It seems to me that fleet tailoring is done during by picking matchups in the strategy phase, and you're not making any changes there.

I'd like to see a houserule to allow ships to convert between variants by paying the refit cost. CR90 A to CR90 B, sure we'll just bring it into dry dock and replace some gun turrets. GR-75 Medium Transports to Combat Refits, sure it's right there in the name. ISD I to ISD II, well think of it as less literal and more of a weapons upgrade that puts it on par with the later design.

Re ships, i think it's simpler if either:

you don't use it, it should be discarded too

or

you simply can't change your ships once bought

I have wondered about suggesting a rule that allows you to retire a ship or squadron and gain a certain amount of points back for doing so. Say half the cost for an undamaged ship, a quarter of the cost if it's scarred. I say this because I think some people in our group feel that they should have chosen a different combination of ships, and now they're stuck with them unless they get destroyed, which doesn't really solve their problem. It'd also be a way to gain some resource points if you were really struggling for them, and doesn't seem unreasonable in terms of theme, nor game breaking. I imagine there's a black market for selling and buying ships, and you're going to be making some sacrifice, simply in term of your fleet's strength. But there might be a point where it makes sense to sell on a raider to upgrade your Demolisher, or to get rid of a Corvette to increase your fighter stock.

Unreasonable in terms of theme? I feel it is

We're just going to gloss over the fact that Admiral Motti probably had to beg Grand Moff Tarkin to get an ISD as part of his fleet, and then he scratches it, and then sells it off to the Corporate Sector Authority at Personal Profit......... Or, y'know, to the Hutts, because they have a portion of the Black Market.

I wish I had played CC before so I could make specific to the CC comments...

But that hasn't happened.

But easier reshuffle rules like you have have been part of most campaigns and are popular. However, one could make an argument that it does make things a bit too easy to actually get optimal things.

Sometimes I wish for Campaigns to make us play with suboptimal things. Like being awarded cluster bombs to use, even though you'd never in real life touch them with a 10 foot pole.
(I also think it would be nice to be able to upgrade to the next variant of the ship.)

4 hours ago, Baltanok said:

Are docks fleet specific, or faction-wide? (I.e. I dock an VSD that I no longer want. can you pay the refit cost & undock it?) Given your follow-on comment about removing the ability to share non-uniques, I assume that docks are fleet specific.

Does rule 2 mean that the only time you can un-equip upgrades is when you send a ship into dock? So, if you wanted to move APTs from unnamed Glad #457 to Demolisher after round 1, you would have to dock GSD457, pay the refit cost to undock GSD457, and then equip the APT to Demo. As I understand it, the current rules are "move upgrade from ship #1 to ship #2 for free" Can you equip upgrades onto a ship without docking it?

Good questions!

You can equip items for free, so you can for example buy new equipment. Only removing equipment from the slot requires a refit. You don't need to be placed in dock, but if you do you'll need to pay the cost to get back out. Docking is generally only viable for saving or discarding a ship.

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Does rule 3 mean that upgrades on docked ships must be moved to active ships prior to battle? What if I have no ships that can take that upgrade (I docked my MC80 with leading shots, but only have Nebs left in my fleet)

Just as per the current rules, they don't have to be assigned to ships, just a fleet. If you un-equip gear you want to keep such as a unique officer, you'll need to hang on to it at cost. When you have a new so that can equip it, you can re-equip it for free.

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Does rule 5 mean that squadrons may not dock? (treated like upgrades, rule 3 says upgrades must be assigned or discarded. probably not, since 5 states that you can re-equip squadrons by paying the upgrade price. Since you can't unequip squads without docking them, then you must be able to dock them.)

You are right. Squadrons should use the same terminology as ships here. They are put into dock free but must be either discarded or refitted to return.

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It would seem reasonable to me that docked ships could retain upgrades while docked. Docks should also be able to hold squadrons. However, that raises the option of piling all sorts of unwanted equipment on your docked hangar queen, and stripping it off to refit your fleet in later rounds. Or having enough starfighters that you can shift from a space-superiority wing to a heavy bomber wing to a no-squad list. (dock all squadrons, undock Devastator)

Again, you pay to un-equip only. If you want to let Devastator go, you'll place an ISD with the title into dock. If you pay the refit cost, you may un-equip gear to move elsewhere. Your commander is immediately reassigned. You may not remove the title. Then you declare the ISD is being discarded from your fleet. Any upgrades still on it go with it.

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goals of these rules:

enabling fleet adjustments without intentional suicides. - OK, achieved by allowing discards/docking during management phase.

allowing damaged uniques to rest until you can afford to repair them. - sure, seems reasonable. But, if you can't afford to refit the unique, it seems like you would be unable to build enough of a fleet to challenge your opponent, leading to more damage next round?

The goal here is to let fleets save valuable ships and squadrons for later rounds so they don't have to worry about a turn 2 alpha strike next game if they don't have points to refit. If the early games are relatively pain free, this won't be necessary. But with the ability to now refit multiple ships to open upgrade slots, you may need to decide between repairing a scarred ship or improving a ship that is non-viable.

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Maintain flavor of unique upgrades: I don't see any changes from the rules as written, other than clarifying that discarded uniques are gone as if they had been killed while scarred.

As I said, maintain. The current campaign makes unique items unique. The only change I've made is the inability to trade titles around to keep players from buying them without a plan to keep them. If you want Demolisher, you'll need to decide if you want it on a GSD1 or 2, then invest in maintaining that. You can't just transfer it to another GSD, Demolisher is a unique ship and should stay unique throughout the campaign.

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preventing tailoring fleets to future fights: I'm not understanding what your goal is, and how these rules achieve it. The only change to fleet-tailoring is that I must spend a ships refit cost to remove upgrades from that ship. But is trading upgrades between ships in the same fleet going to help anyone tailor to their next opponent? It seems to me that fleet tailoring is done during by picking matchups in the strategy phase, and you're not making any changes there.

The existing campaign rules let you trade un-equipped upgrades around your entire team. By removing this rule, you can't for example shift a bunch of unique officers to a fleet where you'll be declaring a Special Assault this upcoming turn.

I'll reply to this like I do anything about house rules.

if everyone in your group is cool with it, go for it and have fun.

As for myself, I will never use house rules. I will actually drop out of a group rather than do so. Over more than twenty years gaming a variety of games, all I've seen house rules do is create confusion and angst among players. Nope.

But like I said, as long as everyone in your group is cool with it, go for it!

1 hour ago, Blail Blerg said:

I wish I had played CC before so I could make specific to the CC comments...

But that hasn't happened.

But easier reshuffle rules like you have have been part of most campaigns and are popular. However, one could make an argument that it does make things a bit too easy to actually get optimal things.

Sometimes I wish for Campaigns to make us play with suboptimal things. Like being awarded cluster bombs to use, even though you'd never in real life touch them with a 10 foot pole.
(I also think it would be nice to be able to upgrade to the next variant of the ship.)

The issue is that when you have 1-2 players with "optimal" upgrades it leaves the other players unable to really compete. And not just the opposing team, but also their own team members.

I just reset a fleet where I took several generic upgrades planning to grow into a fully upgraded powerhouse. My teammates took tons of unique upgrades and squadrons.

Now, not only were my ships woefully underpowered when I choose some new ships and upgrades to try, I also had a bare smattering of unique upgrades and squadrons left to choose from. And with two of my three ships scarred for almost 90 points just in repairs, it was literally more cost efficient to restart than repair anything because I was stuck with ships that couldn't fight effectively at full strength.

This is an anecdotal story, sure. But it was really brought into stark relief when FFG had the campaign designer give an interview. He said that he expected the early turns to be a "land grab" for unoccupied territory and that players wouldn't start really losing ships until a few turns in.

First turn result inor campaign was two base assaults and every large ship (7!) in the campaign was scarred. Second turn? Another base assault and multiple scarred ships were destroyed on both sides. My fleet has been reset because there's no way to buy back up to previous strength.

It feels like there were no aggressive teams when testing. Nobody asked what the result would be if one team just blitzed the other for immediate campaign advancement, or if both teams blitzed simultaneously. You can't "hyperspace retreat" when it results in immediately losing your bases before the game really starts.

7 hours ago, thecactusman17 said:

The issue is that when you have 1-2 players with "optimal" upgrades it leaves the other players unable to really compete. And not just the opposing team, but also their own team members.

I just reset a fleet where I took several generic upgrades planning to grow into a fully upgraded powerhouse. My teammates took tons of unique upgrades and squadrons.

Now, not only were my ships woefully underpowered when I choose some new ships and upgrades to try, I also had a bare smattering of unique upgrades and squadrons left to choose from. And with two of my three ships scarred for almost 90 points just in repairs, it was literally more cost efficient to restart than repair anything because I was stuck with ships that couldn't fight effectively at full strength.

This is an anecdotal story, sure. But it was really brought into stark relief when FFG had the campaign designer give an interview. He said that he expected the early turns to be a "land grab" for unoccupied territory and that players wouldn't start really losing ships until a few turns in.

First turn result inor campaign was two base assaults and every large ship (7!) in the campaign was scarred. Second turn? Another base assault and multiple scarred ships were destroyed on both sides. My fleet has been reset because there's no way to buy back up to previous strength.

It feels like there were no aggressive teams when testing. Nobody asked what the result would be if one team just blitzed the other for immediate campaign advancement, or if both teams blitzed simultaneously. You can't "hyperspace retreat" when it results in immediately losing your bases before the game really starts.

I wonder how much they actually tested these things. Just like that objective you were talking about, targeting beacons.

... Also, squadrons. ...

9 hours ago, thecactusman17 said:

The existing campaign rules let you trade un-equipped upgrades around your entire team. By removing this rule, you can't for example shift a bunch of unique officers to a fleet where you'll be declaring a Special Assault this upcoming turn.

Huh. I interpreted the rules differently on that.

P11: "A player may re-equip upgrade cards to different ships within his own fleet..."

P11: "However, a player cannot re-equip or un-equip title upgrade cards."

So, my interpretation of that is that nothing can be traded between players, and you cannot move demolisher from a GSD1 to a GSD2. (Screed can move things between the ships in his fleet, but not give them to another admiral's fleet)

But if your group is calling that differently, then I can totally see where you are coming from.

7 minutes ago, Baltanok said:

Huh. I interpreted the rules differently on that.

P11: "A player may re-equip upgrade cards to different ships within his own fleet..."

P11: "However, a player cannot re-equip or un-equip title upgrade cards."

So, my interpretation of that is that nothing can be traded between players, and you cannot move demolisher from a GSD1 to a GSD2. (Screed can move things between the ships in his fleet, but not give them to another admiral's fleet)

But if your group is calling that differently, then I can totally see where you are coming from.

An un-equipped card can be sent to other fleets per the original rules, but there was no capability of un-equipping them to make room for other upgrades. In this version, I had to eliminate the ability to trade upgrades between fleets because you have the ability to un-equip them independently.

Example, per the original rules:

You have an Assault Frigate Mk2B and an MC80 Assault Cruiser. The Assault Frigate has X17 Turbolasers and Flight Controllers. The MC80 Assault Cruiser has Enhanced Armaments and Engine Techs. Another player in your group purchased SW7 Ion Batteries, but hasn't equipped them to their ship.

Per the fleet building rules, the following options are legal:

You can equip the un-equipped Ion Batteries to the MC80, because there's no restriction on which ship they can be attached to. They just can't be then re-equipped to another ship in a different fleet.

Per the fleet building rules, the following options are NOT legal:

Re-Equipping the Turbolasers from either ship to its counterpart, because the slots they could be transferred to are already occupied. And this is not permitted per the fleet building rules.
Re-equipping the Flight Controllers, because there is no other location to move them to.
Re-equipping the Engine Techs, because there is no other location to move them to.

So in order to re-equip upgrades, you need to have an open space to place them elsewhere. Further, you can't discard upgrades, so those re-equipped cards continue counting against you for the remainder of the campaign or until the ship they are attached to dies permanently, which will take at least two campaign turns.

12 hours ago, thecactusman17 said:

The issue is that when you have 1-2 players with "optimal" upgrades it leaves the other players unable to really compete. And not just the opposing team, but also their own team members.

I just reset a fleet where I took several generic upgrades planning to grow into a fully upgraded powerhouse. My teammates took tons of unique upgrades and squadrons.

Now, not only were my ships woefully underpowered when I choose some new ships and upgrades to try, I also had a bare smattering of unique upgrades and squadrons left to choose from. And with two of my three ships scarred for almost 90 points just in repairs, it was literally more cost efficient to restart than repair anything because I was stuck with ships that couldn't fight effectively at full strength.

This is an anecdotal story, sure. But it was really brought into stark relief when FFG had the campaign designer give an interview. He said that he expected the early turns to be a "land grab" for unoccupied territory and that players wouldn't start really losing ships until a few turns in.

First turn result inor campaign was two base assaults and every large ship (7!) in the campaign was scarred. Second turn? Another base assault and multiple scarred ships were destroyed on both sides. My fleet has been reset because there's no way to buy back up to previous strength.

It feels like there were no aggressive teams when testing. Nobody asked what the result would be if one team just blitzed the other for immediate campaign advancement, or if both teams blitzed simultaneously. You can't "hyperspace retreat" when it results in immediately losing your bases before the game really starts.

Certainly in our campaign, the extra tough base assault objectives made us go the land grabbing route. We're turn 3 and I'm just attacking my first rebel presence planet, which turned out to be an outpost. I am somewhat surprised you guys went base assaults straight off the bat. Brave.

Not brave. Rebels in particular excel with few upgrades per ship and massed squadrons for several ships. When Imperials are just starting and their heavy hitter ships are under-equipped is absolutely the very best moment to attack Imperial bases. If you as Imperials detect that Rebels are under-powered with squadrons, it may be your best time to attack a suspected base.

How would you suspect or detect anything on turn 1 anyway. Surely it's just a lottery. I guess the one upside to following this strat is even if you lose, they can't build a base or outpost there.

No. You cannot trade upgrades between fleets or purchase upgrades for other fleets.

When i read your houserules i was confused. Only thr dry dock seems markedly different to the actual rules

Agree, you can only trade upgrades within your fleet, not across fleets. The rules are clear on that at the very least.

1 hour ago, Jambo75 said:

How would you suspect or detect anything on turn 1 anyway. Surely it's just a lottery. I guess the one upside to following this strat is even if you lose, they can't build a base or outpost there.

If they've followed a particular strategy in which choices they make in initial setup, it should be pretty easy by choosing their most influential pick. If it's a base, you can guess that their next base is also set on a high value target. If it's not, you can safely go after their second highest because it doesn't have Base Defense objectives to protect it. Or you can just go after the next Base and try knocking them out quick.

8 hours ago, thecactusman17 said:

An un-equipped card can be sent to other fleets per the original rules, but there was no capability of un-equipping them to make room for other upgrades. In this version, I had to eliminate the ability to trade upgrades between fleets because you have the ability to un-equip them independently.

Example, per the original rules:

You have an Assault Frigate Mk2B and an MC80 Assault Cruiser. The Assault Frigate has X17 Turbolasers and Flight Controllers. The MC80 Assault Cruiser has Enhanced Armaments and Engine Techs. Another player in your group purchased SW7 Ion Batteries, but hasn't equipped them to their ship.

Per the fleet building rules, the following options are legal:

You can equip the un-equipped Ion Batteries to the MC80, because there's no restriction on which ship they can be attached to. They just can't be then re-equipped to another ship in a different fleet.

Per the fleet building rules, the following options are NOT legal:

Re-Equipping the Turbolasers from either ship to its counterpart, because the slots they could be transferred to are already occupied. And this is not permitted per the fleet building rules.
Re-equipping the Flight Controllers, because there is no other location to move them to.
Re-equipping the Engine Techs, because there is no other location to move them to.

So in order to re-equip upgrades, you need to have an open space to place them elsewhere. Further, you can't discard upgrades, so those re-equipped cards continue counting against you for the remainder of the campaign or until the ship they are attached to dies permanently, which will take at least two campaign turns.

I still don't see how player 1 (say, ackbar) can equip the ion batteries that player 2 (rieekan) bought. P11: "A player may spent resource points (not refit points) to add new ships, squadrons, and upgrade cards to his fleet." (emphasis added)

You can re-equip one of the turbolasers by unequipping the Enhanced Armament, and then re-equipping the X17's to the MC80. What isn't entirely clear to me is whether you must wait until a later campaign turn to re-equip the Enhanced Armament, or if it's permissible to re-equip the Enhanced Armament within the same refit phase. My personal interpretation is that un-equipping & re-equipping upgrades may be done in any order & as many times as you like during the refit phase. So, you may un-equip the X17 from AFM, re-equip the EA from MC80 to AFM, then re-equip the un-equipped X17 to MC80.

On the subject of attacks, I would totally go for their bases right off the bat. If you manage to knock out a couple of their bases in turn one, you just about won it already. It's a risk to be sure, but fortune favors the bold......

As former Army, I have to say that transfers from one unit to another are just a part of military life. Both the Empire and the Rebellion are military organizations. While the decision to prevent units, (especially unique units), from being traded back and forth is obviously made from a game balance perspective, to prevent metagaming. It is both thematicly & realistically inaccurate to assume any units would be immune from transfer orders. Or that the overall sector commander wouldn't have the ability to make transfers he feels are for the good of the service.

In short I get why that decision was made, but is it really unbalanced if both sides can do it?

For #1), you are already allowed to set aside upgrades for later, why the need to announce it?

The campaign is missing a good few things in my eyes, a rather weak framework overall, at least the new objectives and squads more than make up for that. A few ideas I've been playing with

1) Each faction doesn't have individual fleets, but a grand fleet, save 1300 odd points to start (to allow some flexibility). Use normal campaign building rules. This is used to get around the relative monotony of knowing what is attacking where and when, which is a bit silly. Players declare their attacks, divvy up their fleet to what they think they will need, and still be surprised by the opponent( or surprise them) when they arrive at their destination. It makes next to no sense to know the compliment you are fighting in advance. Further to that in the tournament player scene, you tend to end up with fleets specifically designed to combat other fleets, which leads us to a stagnation with respect to match ups, this helps deal with that.

2) If holding on to set fleets, I'd like to see movement and proximity come into play, this would involve a lot more fleshing out than the above to make it viable, but defender would be in part determined by proximity, after a hidden movement phase (maybe spynets could alternatively affect knowledge here). Effectively trying to tack on some game instead of having a very thin backdrop to Armada battles.

3) Resources are far too easy to accumulate. Having your fleet topped up round 2-3 depending how well you played is a bit silly, and belies any ideas of progression. Maybe cut resource growth in 1/3rd, to make it that much more punishing. Refit can stay the same, for now, but even that seems a bit too easy overall. I'd like to see more tough decisions come into play, which the abundance of points really removes from the game. What we are left with is just a framework that 'enables' us to play continuous set fleet 500 pt battles, we could already do that.

4) Hyperlane Raid - really needs a bit of a fix, something like 'Rebels get 20 resource and score per imperial ship not in the rebel deployment zone at game end'. This puts on the impetus for the imperials to actually move and not turtle, and would help put the rebels on a bit more even ground. As it stands the rebels need to hit bases and knock down imperial resource production overall to compensate for how easy show of force is when compared with the rebel equivalent. Yes, it makes sense for the imperials to have more cash flow, but it doesn't make for a good gaming atmosphere, especially with set initiative.