1 hour ago, WWHSD said:

You should see the other three or four multiple page threads that have come up since the card was released. This thread is basically rehashing everything that we got bored of arguing about but with some new voices throwing in their two cents.

You go on about how everything is clearly handled by "Do what the card says" but the example you give has you making up all sorts of **** that isn't on the card or in the rules.

What the rules and cards do say:

- Accuracy Corrector very clearly prevents you from spending a focus token to modify results after if is used.

- Accuracy Corrector and the default effect of focus tokens have the same timing window.

- When two events have the same timing and are controlled by the same player the player is allowed to resolve them in any order that they choose.

If all of those things are true and HSCP isn't doing anything to change any of them, then there isn't really any reason that Accuracy Corrector shouldn't be allowed to be triggered before HSCP.

If there is something about HSCP that needs to be used before Accuracy Corrector, does it also need to be used before spending a Target Lock to reroll? Can Finn add a blank green die and have Rey reroll it before having to spend the focus?

If a new pilot is released with an ability like:

"When you are hit by an attack and suffer critical damage, you may spend a focus token to deal all damage cards face down"

How does HSCP pilot interact with that? That focus token would still be getting spent during the attack but you wouldn't know until after the modify defense dice ( and maybe not even until the compare results step in the case of things like Crack Shot ) if you are even going to have an opportunity to spend a token.

Your Accuracy Corrector point is valid. Definitely seems as though you could block with AC due to the timing overlap. That seems to really be the only edge case, and would probably be fixed if necessary by a FAQ correction to AC, and not HSCP, along the lines of "Accuracy Corrector can only be used at the end of the attacker's Modify Attack Dice step."

All of the Palp arguments are ridiculous, though. Palp doesn't block a dice pool being modified, only a specific die. Focus, stress, etc. can be spent to modify a dice pool whether a modifiable die exists or not.

With regards to your last question, the ability would open up an additional timing window in which a focus token can be spent for the defender, forcing the defender to spend it during that step if not spent during the Modify Defense Dice step, regardless of whether there any face-up cards to flip (just like with dice modifications). But if it's worded like Brath's ability, it would be an "after the attack" ability anyway.

4 minutes ago, RampancyTW said:

All of the Palp arguments are ridiculous, though. Palp doesn't block a dice pool being modified, only a specific die. Focus, stress, etc. can be spend to modify a dice pool whether a modifiable die exists or not.

Are they...?

You roll one dice > modify it with palp > your pool consists of 1 dice with blocked mods. Sooo can you spend a focus to mod it? Well someone may argue that yes you spend a focus to mod 0 dice....but when you mod 0 dice your pool consists of 0 UNBLOCKED dice. In this case your whole pool consists of 1 BLOCKED dice so what are you supposed to spend that focus on..?

Its not the case of rolling a result - its the case of this dice being locked and it being your whole dice pool - your pool is locked.

4 minutes ago, Vitalis said:

Are they...?

You roll one dice > modify it with palp > your pool consists of 1 dice with blocked mods. Sooo can you spend a focus to mod it? Well someone may argue that yes you spend a focus to mod 0 dice....but when you mod 0 dice your pool consists of 0 UNBLOCKED dice. In this case your whole pool consists of 1 BLOCKED dice so what are you supposed to spend that focus on..?

Its not the case of rolling a result - its the case of this dice being locked and it being your whole dice pool - your pool is locked.

Yes, they are.

You can spend a focus to modify zero dice if there are no dice than can be modified, just like with Keyan's stress. Your whole dice pool consists of one blocked die plus zero unblocked dice that can be modified per usual.

Unless your DICE can no longer be modified (i.e. Accuracy Corrector), your focus can be spent. Whether it's to change zero modifiable dice, one modifiable die, or 8 modifiable dice, it can be spent.

Even better, Palp doesn't even say the die can't be modified, only its result. So yeah. Spend the focus, modify the die, don't modify the result. So even without the ability to modify zero dice (which is EXPLICITLY something the player can do), Palp wouldn't block it.

6 minutes ago, RampancyTW said:

Even better, Palp doesn't even say the die can't be modified, only its result. So yeah. Spend the focus, modify the die, don't modify the result. So even without the ability to modify zero dice (which is EXPLICITLY something the player can do), Palp wouldn't block it.

Oh....your one of those guys that split dice from their results....

Just now, Vitalis said:

Oh....your one of those guys that split dice from their results....

Bruh. We're literally arguing semantics. It's the entire basis of this forum.

Semantics aside, the rest of the post stands. If you're going to reply to it, address it.

14 minutes ago, RampancyTW said:

You can spend a focus to modify zero dice if there are no dice than can be modified, just like with Keyan's stress. Your whole dice pool consists of one blocked die plus zero unblocked dice that can be modified per usual.

No your pool consist of one 1 dice. And its blocked.

Moding zero dice is another case and does not occur here cause:

-you mod zero dice if your dice pool consists of zero dice.

or

-you mod zero dice if your pool consists of some modable dice but while using the mod you choose not to mod any of them.

Just now, RampancyTW said:

Bruh. We're literally arguing semantics. It's the entire basis of this forum.

Thats not semantics if your think you can mod a result without modding a dice. Semantics are when you call dice a result and vice versa.

You mod zero [eye] results with a Focus token if you have a pool with ninety seven dice, none of which happen to be showing an [eye].

2 minutes ago, Vitalis said:

No your pool consist of one 1 dice. And its blocked.

Moding zero dice is another case and does not occur here cause:

-you mod zero dice if your dice pool consists of zero dice.

or

-you mod zero dice if your pool consists of some modable dice but while using the mod you choose not to mod any of them.

Thats not semantics if your think you can mod a result without modding a dice. Semantics are when you call dice a result and vice versa.

It consists of 1 + 0 dice that can be modified. Why would modding zero dice if your dice pool consists of zero dice be okay, but not modifying your dice pool of zero modifiable dice? Can you point to any example in the rules or FAQ that would make one okay but not the other?

Similarly, for example two, can you point to any example in the rules that would allow you to use a modifier to mod zero dice if it's voluntarily, but not be able to spend it to mod zero dice involuntarily?

The attacker's or defender's dice pool is pretty explicitly distinct from any individual dice results within that pool within the rules.

If a new pilot is released with an ability like:

"When you are hit by an attack and suffer critical damage, you may spend a focus token to deal all damage cards face down"

How does HSCP pilot interact with that? That focus token would still be getting spent during the attack but you wouldn't know until after the modify defense dice ( and maybe not even until the compare results step in the case of things like Crack Shot ) if you are even going to have an opportunity to spend a token.

44 minutes ago, RampancyTW said:

With regards to your last question, the ability would open up an additional timing window in which a focus token can be spent for the defender, forcing the defender to spend it during that step if not spent during the Modify Defense Dice step, regardless of whether there any face-up cards to flip (just like with dice modifications). But if it's worded like Brath's ability, it would be an "after the attack" ability anyway.

With that hypothetical pilot ability, if you aren't hit by the attack or if you don't suffer critical damage you don't have a way to spend a focus token at that point in the attack. Until you get to the the deal damage step of the attack the possibility of being able to spend a focus token exists. If you get to that step and find that the ability does not trigger, it's too late to spend the token on anything else.

13 minutes ago, RampancyTW said:

It consists of 1 + 0 dice that can be modified.

Aaaaaaaaaaa! No it does not consist of 1+0. It consists of 1. Why you keep adding those 0 dice if they are not there. You have 1 dice in a pool. Not 0, not 1+0, just 1.

13 minutes ago, RampancyTW said:

Why would modding zero dice if your dice pool consists of zero dice be okay, but not modifying your dice pool of zero modifiable dice?

Cause you are making up those 0 moddable dice out of the blue... You pool consists of 1 dice. 1. Dont add things (even if they are abstract) when they should not be there. If your pool consists of 0 it consists of 0. End of story.

13 minutes ago, RampancyTW said:

Similarly, for example two, can you point to any example in the rules that would allow you to use a modifier to mod zero dice if it's voluntarily, but not be able to spend it to mod zero dice involuntarily?

No but i can point you to plenty of places where is stands that you cant mod a dice that cannot be modded. And thats the case here not that the mod is voluntary or not.

13 minutes ago, RampancyTW said:

The attacker's or defender's dice pool is pretty explicitly distinct from any individual dice results within that pool within the rules.

I would ask for the source but this discussion wanna make me scream already....

5 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

With that hypothetical pilot ability, if you aren't hit by the attack or if you don't suffer critical damage you don't have a way to spend a focus token at that point in the attack. Until you get to the the deal damage step of the attack the possibility of being able to spend a focus token exists. If you get to that step and find that the ability does not trigger, it's too late to spend the token on anything else.

Ah. I see what you're getting at. The wording would just have to be particularthen, and be worded like Brath's ability to take place after the attack.

2 minutes ago, Vitalis said:

Aaaaaaaaaaa! No it does not consist of 1+0. It consists of 1. Why you keep adding those 0 dice if they are not there. You have 1 dice i a pool. Not 0, not 1+0, just 1.

Cause you are making up those 0 moddable dice out of the blue... You pool consists of 1 dice. 1. Dont add things (even they are abstract) when they should not be there. If your pool consists of 0 it consists of 0. End of story.

No but i can point you to plenty of places where is stands that you cant mod a dice that cannot be modded. Thats the case here not that the mod is voluntary or not.

I would ask for the source but this discussion wanna make me scream already....

Except they ARE there. If they weren't there, you wouldn't be able to modify a pool of 0 dice!

When you spend a focus token, you spend it to change all focus results to hits or evades, whether there's zero focuses that can be modified or twenty. Why would a locked die change that?

2 minutes ago, RampancyTW said:

Ah. I see what you're getting at. The wording would just have to be particularthen, and be worded like Brath's ability to take place after the attack.

The wording was particular. It was worded the way that it was specifically to take place during the attack. From my point of view any ruling on HSCP is going to need to do one of two things. It will either dictate a specific timing for spending the focus token or it will need to accept that there are other game effects than may create situations where no token gets spent even though there was a point in time that the token could have been spent.

6 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

The wording was particular. It was worded the way that it was specifically to take place during the attack. From my point of view any ruling on HSCP is going to need to do one of two things. It will either dictate a specific timing for spending the focus token or it will need to accept that there are other game effects than may create situations where no token gets spent even though there was a point in time that the token could have been spent.

But again, if they're careful with wording, they can avoid any timing conflicts beyond the current AC issue. They don't necessarily need a HSCP FAQ on timing if there aren't any further conflicts. We'll just have to see how it pans out.

1 hour ago, Vitalis said:

I would ask for the source but this discussion wanna make me scream already....

To try to make this a little less scream-inducing:

So, adding dice results (blank, hit, focus, evade, whatever). is modifying the attack dice. It's not a "special" modification, it's simply a modification, subject to all of the normal modification rules. Right?

So say, for example, there's a Imperial version of Finn. You roll 1 defense die on an ImpFinn-equipped ship, and then palp that result to a focus. So now you have 1 locked die, and 0 remaining dice. Would that in any way bar you from modifying the dice to add a blank result? I reckon you'd say no, right?

So why would one modification be treated differently from the other ones? If the dice pool as a whole can be modified in one way (adding dice), why wouldn't they be able to be modified in another way (spending a focus token to change all focus results to hit results)?

When you modify the dice pool, you're not applying it to the individual dice. You use a modifier on your dice pool as a whole, that THEN, as part of using it, allows you to add dice results, change eyeballs to hits or evades, or to reroll from between zero and whatever number of dice. Say Hobbie Klivian, for example, was Weapon Failured twice and had his remaining die locked from re-rolls via Elusiveness, or R7 astromech. Would he no longer be able to spend a TL to clear stress? Or would he be able to spend the TL, re-roll zero dice with the TL, and clear a stress? I think most people would say it's the latter, and the rules regarding modifying attack and defense dice seem to support this. The focus case should be play out in exactly the same fashion.

4 hours ago, RampancyTW said:

To try to make this a little less scream-inducing:

So, adding dice results (blank, hit, focus, evade, whatever). is modifying the attack dice. It's not a "special" modification, it's simply a modification, subject to all of the normal modification rules. Right?

So say, for example, there's a Imperial version of Finn. You roll 1 defense die on an ImpFinn-equipped ship, and then palp that result to a focus. So now you have 1 locked die, and 0 remaining dice. Would that in any way bar you from modifying the dice to add a blank result? I reckon you'd say no, right?

So why would one modification be treated differently from the other ones? If the dice pool as a whole can be modified in one way (adding dice), why wouldn't they be able to be modified in another way (spending a focus token to change all focus results to hit results)?

When you modify the dice pool, you're not applying it to the individual dice. You use a modifier on your dice pool as a whole, that THEN, as part of using it, allows you to add dice results, change eyeballs to hits or evades, or to reroll from between zero and whatever number of dice. Say Hobbie Klivian, for example, was Weapon Failured twice and had his remaining die locked from re-rolls via Elusiveness, or R7 astromech. Would he no longer be able to spend a TL to clear stress? Or would he be able to spend the TL, re-roll zero dice with the TL, and clear a stress? I think most people would say it's the latter, and the rules regarding modifying attack and defense dice seem to support this. The focus case should be play out in exactly the same fashion.

The thing is, when a die or the whole dice pool is locked, you don't just add 0 results to it so that you can spend a token or reroll to modify those 0 results, for the sole benefit of spending the token. The dice pool is what was rolled or added to via modifications. Not an additional 0 results.

When a card like Accuracy Corrector says "your dice cannot be modified again", that means absolutely no modifications at all. You can't spend focus tokens to change 0 results, you can't add results, and you can't spend a target lock to reroll 0 results. Why not? Because they are modifications to the dice pool and the card has just prohibited that.

Now you can spend tokens to modify 0 results if you are allowed to modify results (0 or otherwise). But when an ability says you cannot, then that's the end of any modifications.

Omega Leader locks out modifications entirely, so you can't add 0 results and then spend a token to modify those 0 results. And this one is in the FAQ.

Quote

If “Omega Leader” has an enemy ship locked, when that ship attacks or defends against “Omega Leader,” that ship cannot resolve abilities that would modify dice, even 0 dice, such as Keyan Farlander’s ability.

When modifications are locked out like this, then there's no more modifications or token spending to modify results, even 0 results.

1 hour ago, Parravon said:

The thing is, when a die or the whole dice pool is locked, you don't just add 0 results to it so that you can spend a token or reroll to modify those 0 results, for the sole benefit of spending the token. The dice pool is what was rolled or added to via modifications. Not an additional 0 results.

When a card like Accuracy Corrector says "your dice cannot be modified again", that means absolutely no modifications at all. You can't spend focus tokens to change 0 results, you can't add results, and you can't spend a target lock to reroll 0 results. Why not? Because they are modifications to the dice pool and the card has just prohibited that.

Now you can spend tokens to modify 0 results if you are allowed to modify results (0 or otherwise). But when an ability says you cannot, then that's the end of any modifications.

Omega Leader locks out modifications entirely, so you can't add 0 results and then spend a token to modify those 0 results. And this one is in the FAQ.

When modifications are locked out like this, then there's no more modifications or token spending to modify results, even 0 results.

Correct, which is the point I was making, to distinguish between Accuracy Corrector/Omega Leader locking out the pool and Palp locking out an individual die. You can modify a pool that doesn't contain any modifiable dice, provided that the total pool can still be modified.

This is also exactly what I meant about individual dice and the attacker or defender's dice pools being explicitly separate entities according to the rules/FAQ.

People also keep talking about Palping a result to a focus, except that it would never matter WHAT Palp's result is changed to, since the die is treated exactly the same no matter what.

Edit: When you apply a focus token, you're not applying it to the dice with eyeball results. You're applying it to the dice pool as a whole, at which point you then change any eyeball results to the appropriate result. If you roll no eyeball results, it isn't possible to modify any dice with a focus token or Keyan's stress, but you can still apply the modification to the dice pool and then change zero dice. There's no logic within the game rules or FAQ that would prevent you from applying a modification to your dice pool provided the dice pool isn't locked, even if results contained within can't be changed. If a die result can be added, a focus token can be spent (barring Carnor etc.).

9 hours ago, RampancyTW said:

Yes, they are.

You can spend a focus to modify zero dice if there are no dice than can be modified, just like with Keyan's stress. Your whole dice pool consists of one blocked die plus zero unblocked dice that can be modified per usual.

Unless your DICE can no longer be modified (i.e. Accuracy Corrector), your focus can be spent. Whether it's to change zero modifiable dice, one modifiable die, or 8 modifiable dice, it can be spent.

Even better, Palp doesn't even say the die can't be modified, only its result. So yeah. Spend the focus, modify the die, don't modify the result. So even without the ability to modify zero dice (which is EXPLICITLY something the player can do), Palp wouldn't block it.

This is a specious argument. Modifying a die is modifying its result.

The sequence goes: roll. It doesn't actually batter how many. Get, say, blank eye hit. Modify the hit into an eye (say, you're running Gunner) in order to miss, with Palp. You then have blank, eye, unmodifiable eye.

You can't spend your focus token, because spending it modifies ALL your eyeballs, and you can't modify one of them, because Palp prevents it.

Just now, thespaceinvader said:

This is a specious argument. Modifying a die is modifying its result.

The sequence goes: roll. It doesn't actually batter how many. Get, say, blank eye hit. Modify the hit into an eye (say, you're running Gunner) in order to miss, with Palp. You then have blank, eye, unmodifiable eye.

You can't spend your focus token, because spending it modifies ALL your eyeballs, and you can't modify one of them, because Palp prevents it.

That's ridiculous, though. There's nothing about the wording that implies that a Palp eyeball means you can't spend a focus on your dice and change any other eyeball results. Palp specifies that THAT DIE RESULT can no longer be modified. There's nothing about a single die being unable to be modified that would prevent you from spending modifiers on your dice pool if possible.

You would spend focus as normal, change any focus results to hits, EXCEPT Palp die because it can no longer be modified. Nothing about Palp's effect on a single die should affect any other applications of modifiers.

That's exactly what Palp could mean in this context. I say 'could' because this card still hasn't had an FAQ entry despite having been out for nearly 4 months, so it's really not clear.

The FAQ is definitely explicit that a token cannot be spent if dice modification is blocked, per the interaction between Garven/Keyan and Omega Leader.

The FAQ doesn't mention whether blocking the modification of ONE eyeball of several, or of the only eyeball in the pool, would similarly block spending the focus token, but the implication is pretty clear that it would - attempting to spend a focus when there's only 1 eyeball visible and palp has blocked modifying it would be equivalent to attempting to spend one when Omega Leader has you locked and HE's blocked modifying it. And we know for certain that that doesn't work.

You not liking the rules doesn't change them.

24 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

That's exactly what Palp could mean in this context. I say 'could' because this card still hasn't had an FAQ entry despite having been out for nearly 4 months, so it's really not clear.

The FAQ is definitely explicit that a token cannot be spent if dice modification is blocked, per the interaction between Garven/Keyan and Omega Leader.

The FAQ doesn't mention whether blocking the modification of ONE eyeball of several, or of the only eyeball in the pool, would similarly block spending the focus token, but the implication is pretty clear that it would - attempting to spend a focus when there's only 1 eyeball visible and palp has blocked modifying it would be equivalent to attempting to spend one when Omega Leader has you locked and HE's blocked modifying it. And we know for certain that that doesn't work.

You not liking the rules doesn't change them.

Cut the snark.

The FAQ is explicit that when modification of the attacker's or defender's dice as a whole are blocked, yes. But the rules instruct you to spend the token and then change all eyeball results to the appropriate result. Tokens and stress can also be spent to change zero results. Which is a pretty clear implication that, just like with all other modifications, the modification is applied to the dice pool (like with zero dice rolled) and not individual dice. Would you disagree with that?

Like I listed above, in a situation where you can apply one modifier to the dice (add die result), why would you not be able to apply another modifier to the dice pool, even if it doesn't affect any changes? All the rules precedents indicate that you should be able to, why would focus tokens be any different?

Additionally, card texts override the basic rules-- but Palp card doesn't mention any effect other than on that specific die result. So why would the dice pool outside of the Palp die be affected? The Palp card doesn't mention any clauses that should override the basic rules for anything other than that one die.

I used Hobbie Klivian above as an example. Say R7 had rerolled all of his dice already-- would he not be able to spend a TL and reroll zero dice to shed a stress?

22 minutes ago, RampancyTW said:

Cut the snark.

The FAQ is explicit that when modification of the attacker's or defender's dice as a whole are blocked, yes. But the rules instruct you to spend the token and then change all eyeball results to the appropriate result. Tokens and stress can also be spent to change zero results. Which is a pretty clear implication that, just like with all other modifications, the modification is applied to the dice pool (like with zero dice rolled) and not individual dice. Would you disagree with that?

No. But importantly, spending focus on eyeballs MUST be applied to ALL the visible eyeballs, you can't pick and choose.

Like I listed above, in a situation where you can apply one modifier to the dice (add die result), why would you not be able to apply another modifier to the dice pool, even if it doesn't affect any changes? All the rules precedents indicate that you should be able to, why would focus tokens be any different?

Because the modification might be blocked for some reason - like Palp. Whether you can do one thing has no impact at all on whether you can do any of the other things. For instance, a putative upgrade that said 'die results may not be added' would prevent you from using an evade token, but wouldn't prevent you from spending a focus token. Sensor Jammer stops you rerolling, but doesn't stop you spending focus on that die, Dark Curse prevents you from rerolling and spending focus, but not using Poe's ability, or Backdraft's, or... etc. There are a wide range of ways one modification can be blocked, but not others.

Additionally, card texts override the basic rules-- but Palp card doesn't mention any effect other than on that specific die result. So why would the dice pool outside of the Palp die be affected? The Palp card doesn't mention any clauses that should override the basic rules for anything other than that one die.

Because all means ALL. If you have eyeballs visible, you MUST modify them when you spend a focus token to modify eyeballs. We don't know what happens when you CANNOT modify one of them, but CAN modify all the others. But you definitely can't spend a focus token and choose to modify only one of your two visible eyeballs, or indeed none of your one visible eyeballs. The implication would then be that you can't spend the token to modify any of them, because it would fail to work on one of them.

I used Hobbie Klivian above as an example. Say R7 had rerolled all of his dice already-- would he not be able to spend a TL and reroll zero dice to shed a stress?

This isn't an analogous situation, because Hobbie CAN spend a TL to choose and reroll 0 dice as long as he can modify dice at all. It's not legal to spend a focus to modify eyeballs, and choose to ignore one of them. But against Dark Curse, for instance, he WOULD be blocked from doing this, because rerolling 0 dice, is still rerolling dice, per the ruling on Omega Leader.

Answers in bold.

All of those ways that some modifications can be blocked but not others are explicit exceptions to the rules, though, and are spelled out as such.

I guess I do see the basis of the argument, but it feels like a pretty big stretch to apply Palp's die's rules to the dice pool as opposed to not modifying the unmodifiable die when modifiers are applied. It changes the modification process from Spend Token --> perform token effects to Check for any unmodifiable focus results --> Spend Token --> perform token affects, which would expand the scope of the card beyond the printed abilities of the card.

Spend Token --> Change all eyeballs to evades (ignore Palp die-- can't be modified) appears much more consistent than Spend Token --> Can't change Palp eyeball --> Unspend Token when effects that block token spending are explicitly laid out in any other instance. Blocking a spend involves inventing a rule that isn't written as opposed to following the basic rules as written except for (rule explicitly overridden for one die by card text) like in every other instance of upgrade cards.

It's not that it's adding Palp's die's rules to the pool.

It's that spending focus is all or nothing, and the rules are silent about what happens when you can't do all in this context.

Thinking about it though, the analogy might be Han's ability - which does allow you to reroll all the dice except for the one you already predatorred.

So I guess you're right on Palp.

HSCP still needs FAQing a bunch though, and it would be good to cover this situation as well.

3 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

It's not that it's adding Palp's die's rules to the pool.

It's that spending focus is all or nothing, and the rules are silent about what happens when you can't do all in this context.

Thinking about it though, the analogy might be Han's ability - which does allow you to reroll all the dice except for the one you already predatorred.

So I guess you're right on Palp.

HSCP still needs FAQing a bunch though, and it would be good to cover this situation as well.

Yeah. Definitely a huge syntax error when it comes to focus token effects, but fortunately we're not trying to compile a computer program here. Absolutely seeing the need for a FAQ now though at least.

IMO there are just too many examples of how to handle contradicting rules that would point to being able to spend the token but not affect the die in question, since treating it the other way would be such a huge departure from other in-game effects affecting modification.