I'm looking at results from more than this one event.

Ok so look at the top from all the events from this weekend. All with good variety and only one/two of these lists in each cut.

3 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

I'm looking at results from more than this one event.

There will *always* be a best list in the meta.

Parattani isn't a problem, it's a baseline. The trick is to figure out how to beat it without losing to everything else, and if the worst comes to the worst and there genuinely are no alternatives... as soon as the next wave comes out in like... 3 days... there'll be a whole new meta shakeup anyway.

Top cut seems to be usually somewhat diversified, but Paratanni is also the list which is making more results worldwide. No other archetype seems to match the same winnings, but I didn't actually checked it throughtfully so mine could just be confirmation bias

1 minute ago, Sunitsa said:

Top cut seems to be usually somewhat diversified, but Paratanni is also the list which is making more results worldwide. No other archetype seems to match the same winnings, but I didn't actually checked it throughtfully so mine could just be confirmation bias

You're right. I track Parattanni results for obvious reasons :). Now its 9 Regionals won, 1 SoS won. And easier to count events in which Parattanni didn't made a cut, that it did.

Not to knock your research, I have noticed it's success too, but are you saying we need to change Attanni Mindlink? I would wait to see the meta after we have the new wave for a month and then draw your conclusions. Plus I think people just aren't planning for it like they do other power lists, everyone is trying to beat defenders and dangaroo and now a meta of bombs, tlt, and mindlink have popped up. But with new cards and ships to occupy us, I think both counters and new power lists can be found. I also think it's kinda silly to ban a list just because it's winning a lot, when I don't think it carries and negative play experience, especially when it isn't auto fly, it takes skill

Plus fixing for ffg always comes with negative play experience. The Phantom and dead eye had that and it limited what could go to a tournament but a large portion.

Right, but this was the same for Palp aces, Defenders, Rebel Toolbox, jump masters, Fat han, Dengaroo, brobots and the list goes on. There are always super powerful lists that take the meta by storm, then the meta fights back to establish a new balance. That is just how Metas work.

Edit: plus what that guy said^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

It's that it's just the same story again, but with a different face. We act like it's different lists at the top but underlying it's largely the same thing. Different pilots, different ships, different factions, but basically the same thing. Paratanni is Palp Aces on crack.

26 minutes ago, Oldpara said:

You're right. I track Parattanni results for obvious reasons :). Now its 9 Regionals won, 1 SoS won. And easier to count events in which Parattanni didn't made a cut, that it did.

On the other hand, do you also track the results of other lists ? How much Parattani wins is not very helpful in this discussion without comparing it to how much other lists win IMO (9 regional wins out of 10 is completely different to 9 regional wins out of 500 for example).

Just from a cursory glance on the regional thread the same 'easier to count events in which it didn't made a cut, that it did' can also be said about Defenders.

2 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

It's that it's just the same story again, but with a different face. We act like it's different lists at the top but underlying it's largely the same thing. Different pilots, different ships, different factions, but basically the same thing. Paratanni is Palp Aces on crack.

There will always be a perceived best list, it's just how the meta works.

9 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

It's that it's just the same story again, but with a different face. We act like it's different lists at the top but underlying it's largely the same thing. Different pilots, different ships, different factions, but basically the same thing. Paratanni is Palp Aces on crack.

So, the problem is that there's always a best list, not that any specific list is currently best?

That's not a problem FFG can fix. Whenever your release new content or nerf old content, the meta will adjust as players experiment to find out what works best, and find counters to what works best that don't get killed by everything else, and get used to flying against what works best so it doesn't work so well anymore - and something will ALWAYS work best.

Or to put it another way: how do you propose FIXING this problem?

Just now, thespaceinvader said:

So, the problem is that there's always a best list, not that any specific list is currently best?

That's not a problem FFG can fix. Whenever your release new content or nerf old content, the meta will adjust as players experiment to find out what works best, and find counters to what works best that don't get killed by everything else, and get used to flying against what works best so it doesn't work so well anymore - and something will ALWAYS work best.

Or to put it another way: how do you propose FIXING this problem?

There are just some people who likes to complain about anything.

I am perfectly fine with the fact that in a given meta there will always be "the best" list. It is unavoidable. Especially given the fact that there are hundreds, if not thousands of X-Wing players who actively try to optimize and find out the perfect combination of ships and upgrade cards.

Also I dont think you can label "Parattani" as the best list - as last regional in Poland shows; at the final table were two Rebel lists.

11 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

It's that it's just the same story again, but with a different face. We act like it's different lists at the top but underlying it's largely the same thing. Different pilots, different ships, different factions, but basically the same thing. Paratanni is Palp Aces on crack.

Ok but what are you suggesting by taking notice of that, we didn't ban palp or the aces, new stuff came out and it fell out of favor, like I said before are you suggesting they change Attanni Mindlink? Or say your not allowed to fly manaroo with asajj and fenn lol. Change manaroo? I mean like I said I see no negative play experience. Whisper use to be able to solo low ps lists and jump masters pointed all their guns at something and killed it on the first engagement with no need to set up. Both excluded a large portion of ships from being good any more. I don't see manaroo or mindlink being that type of a thing. They are still playing a dice game no matter how much focus they stack, they do nothing for blank results

18 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

It's that it's just the same story again, but with a different face. We act like it's different lists at the top but underlying it's largely the same thing. Different pilots, different ships, different factions, but basically the same thing. Paratanni is Palp Aces on crack.

I believe the game you are looking for is Chess.

Just now, Embir82 said:

There are just some people who likes to complain about anything.

I am perfectly fine with the fact that in a given meta there will always be "the best" list. It is unavoidable. Especially given the fact that there are hundreds, if not thousands of X-Wing players who actively try to optimize and find out the perfect combination of ships and upgrade cards.

Also I dont think you can label "Parattani" as the best list - as last regional in Poland shows; at the final table were two Rebel lists.

Somethign can be the current best list and still lose - because someone playing a still-very-good list better will still beat him, mistakes can still happen, especially in long tournaments, and in the end, dice can still rain merry destruction on the best laid plans of mice and men.

Just now, TheOz said:

Ok but what are you suggesting by taking notice of that, we didn't ban palp or the aces, new stuff came out and it fell out of favor, like I said before are you suggesting they change Attanni Mindlink? Or say your not allowed to fly manaroo with asajj and fenn lol. Change manaroo? I mean like I said I see no negative play experience. Whisper use to be able to solo low ps lists and jump masters pointed all their guns at something and killed it on the first engagement with no need to set up. Both excluded a large portion of ships from being good any more. I don't see manaroo or mindlink being that type of a thing. They are still playing a dice game no matter how much focus they stack, they do nothing for blank results

I'd genuinely thing Manaroo would be better with a range limit. So would Palp. Make them both only work within range 1-3, and suddenly those lists become a lot more difficult to fly well.

While I'm not a big fan of any list getting to "net list" status, I will say Parattani, much like Dengaroo, shows that there is still things to create that can compete at the top level. Parattani is absurdly simple list building wise, and didn't really catch on until Wave 9 was in hand for a healthy amount of time. Same with Dengaroo and Wave 8 (although Dengaroo is much more complex in comparison).

As much as these meta lists are examples of problems in the game, they are just as much examples that the best list builders are still able to crack the code.

Well in case of Paratanni, receipt for success was pretty easy to figure out - in Wave 9 Scum get Protectorate Fighters and Pursuit crafts - both ships with great dials, thus easily overcomig Attani drawback of sharing stress.

Thus Attani mindlik seemed like the best option from the get go.

I'm not interested in whether "there will always be a best list or not" (although I'd argue that a game with a 'best list' is a pretty good example of a poorly balanced game).

My problem is that the 'best list' (should it exist) is too often the same list, just with different cards/ships/pilots. Just a new brand of lipstick on the same pig thats being treated like a wondrous new pig.

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

And thus the point that's really exercising me right now: how to figure out what the NEXT big thing is, and/or how to counter Parattani.

I know what I think I'd do for the latter (RAC/Defender, basically, with Vader/Gunner/HotCoP should be able to kill Fenn before he can fire, force damage through on Assaj, and chase down Mana, and a Juke defender at high PS likes rolling with a HotCoP) but I think there's too much punishing that (particularly the Defender half) in the meta right now to make it a top tier choice.

As for the former, there's enough fear of Kylo that I think we'll see him a lot for a few months. But I don't think he'll shake out to be tip top tier. I'm looking at low green variance high HP high red dice modding being strong going forward, and thinking about RAC with Kylo pilot...

Can anyone point me to a thread where the Parattani list was first proposed? Oldpara?

9 minutes ago, Timathius said:

I believe the game you are looking for is Chess.

The game that never changes? Yeah, that's precisely the opposite of the game I'm looking for.

Just now, Stay On The Leader said:

I'm not interested in whether "there will always be a best list or not" (although I'd argue that a game with a 'best list' is a pretty good example of a poorly balanced game).

My problem is that the 'best list' (should it exist) is too often the same list, just with different cards/ships/pilots. Just a new brand of lipstick on the same pig thats being treated like a wondrous new pig.

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

Please elaborate on how Parattani is the same as Palp/aces, triple defenders, and jumpmasters.

1 minute ago, PaulTiberius said:

Can anyone point me to a thread where the Parattani list was first proposed? Oldpara?

I first saw it mentioned by Maciej in the comments section of my blog on Mindlink: http://stayontheleader.blogspot.com/2016/10/attani-mindlink-next-big-thing.html

I'm not sure if it had gone public before then.

1 minute ago, PaulTiberius said:

Can anyone point me to a thread where the Parattani list was first proposed? Oldpara?

I don't think it was a thread, I'm pretty sure OldPara played it first at a tournament, at least, in the broad scale public eye anyway.

Just now, thespaceinvader said:

Please elaborate on how Parattani is the same as Palp/aces, triple defenders, and jumpmasters.

Because it's a good list? Apparently he doesn't want any good lists in the game. Every list must be mediocre.