My issue with Kylo is how limiting he will be to list choices. Yes there are builds that make him pretty ineffective but there are far more ships that are boned hard by him. If Kylo becomes a thing at high level events(I think he will) then everyone will have to bring ships that have a chance to dodge RACs attacks. That limits each faction to just a few ships or auto including Determination. Rebels are hurt the worst because many of their popular ships at the moment have no EPT slot. Scum also suffers just from the fact they have to take an EPT that is not mindlink.

Rebel also hurt in most of their ships have high shields low hull.

Corran will be scared witless of Kylo. Or Awings for that matter. And Corran is one of those ships that cant sacrifice his EPT for Determination (plus on a 2hull ship LOL bad idea)

31 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

Rebel also hurt in most of their ships have high shields low hull.

Corran will be scared witless of Kylo. Or Awings for that matter. And Corran is one of those ships that cant sacrifice his EPT for Determination (plus on a 2hull ship LOL bad idea)

An a-wing test pilot (other than Arvel and gemmer) could take determination without a huge loss

I think Kylo rac is legit enough to impact the meta, look at all the two to three ship lists nowadays, they will hate losing two attacks. Combine rac with juke vader and it's going to suck. Who needs to arc dodge when you can just shut them off for two turns.

Rac at ps 10 shoots a ship, strip focus with hot shot, misses, changes target, shoots, strip focus, if that shot doesn't hit, then juke vader shoots, lands crit, they are out for the turn. Once you do that twice, go back to boosting and save Kylo only for when you don't need to boost, unless one two more crits will end them. But it sounds legit to me, it will be a dead card against quad tlt or large squads, but vader crew usually is too and that doesn't limit how killer of an option it is

Do that twice and you've dedicated your whole list to taking a single ship out of the fight for two turns.

If you dedicate your whole list to taking a ship out of the fight it shouldn't be THERE by the time the second shot connects.

Vader crew isn't remotely dead against any list. He ALWAYS offers you the option to drop 2HP to land a crit. Kylo only gives you that if you actually hit.

Rebels probably face the biggest impact from Kylo crew - they have the largest number of ships that rely on HP rather than green dice to not die.

(As regards Dash/Miranda, depends on whom the Kylo player focuses, but my answer largely boils down to 'conner nets stop RAC doing anything with Kylo, and possibly anything at all in the hands of a savvy player who brought big rocks'. And whoever you don't focus on blats you with a big turret attack, either a TLT or an HLC, or possibly a 4 die primary at R1, which will probably be reasonably accurate).

ISYTDS is one of those things that I think will see lots of play initially due to per-release excitement, but in the long run I'm not certain it will be top tier.

It's odd because in some match ups, it's REALLY good (2 hull ships are gonna be hard to take if he gets really popular), and in others, its not even clear if you want to take the action.

Worst case, it will be cool to see things like BBBBZ make a comeback, and other 4+ ship lists.

So it may change the meta, but it wont ruin everything.

3 minutes ago, Kdubb said:

It's odd because in some match ups, it's REALLY good (2 hull ships are gonna be hard to take if he gets really popular), and in others, its not even clear if you want to take the action

I doubt this. 2 hull ships have a much easier time dodging a single vitally important attack than basically anything else in the meta, because they usually have focus/evade and possibly autothrusters and palp to throw at it.

3 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

I doubt this. 2 hull ships have a much easier time dodging a single vitally important attack than basically anything else in the meta, because they usually have focus/evade and possibly autothrusters and palp to throw at it.

RAC's going to have Hotshot and Gunner. And Rebels don't have Palp.

RAC's gonna be at least 60 points.

He'd BETTER be good.

2 hours ago, MenaceNsobriety said:

My issue with Kylo is how limiting he will be to list choices. Yes there are builds that make him pretty ineffective but there are far more ships that are boned hard by him. If Kylo becomes a thing at high level events(I think he will) then everyone will have to bring ships that have a chance to dodge RACs attacks. That limits each faction to just a few ships or auto including Determination. Rebels are hurt the worst because many of their popular ships at the moment have no EPT slot. Scum also suffers just from the fact they have to take an EPT that is not mindlink.

Given that Scum's top lists atm are Dengaroo and Parattani, I wouldn't be completely worried.

With Paratattani you can either target Fenn (4 greens+Focus+Evade or 4 Greens+Focus+AT unless you somehow manage to outplay him and shoot him at range 2) or Assaj (2 greens+Focus+Evade+Latts). Putting a pilot crit on Manaroo is pretty useless (and shooting at Manaroo is probably what the Parattani player wants you to do anyway). Also, Assaj can make it hard for RAC to consistently get actions (blocking without Dauntless, double stress with Dauntless)

Dengaroo is somehwat more susceptible (even at range 3 RAC will probably still sneak crits too) but Dengar still deals so much damage in a short span of time that I have trouble imagining it won't prevail. Perfect opening of Dengar vs. RAC (and not incredibly hard to pull off against RAC without VI): RAC moves, can't Kylo because Dengar is not in range. Dengar moves in range, TL, Plasma Torp (usually either 4 damage, or 3 damage+1 extra shield). RAC shoots, Dengar shoots back, scoring 2-3 damage most likely. RAC is down 6-7 HP (possible even some crits) before first Kylo use. Next round Dengar pops CM and hopes for the best (and in any case, he gets another shot before first crit, and can usually get rid of Blinded Pilot on the revenge shot)

The thing I do think Kylo might bring to prominence is Draw Their Fire

In particular, for Rebels. Biggs with two regenners each of whom has DTF is annoyingly hard to kill, and very tough to land ISYTDS on.

8 hours ago, Stay On The Leader said:

I believe consensus is that Chiraneau can't really risk taking actions for Kylo instead of boosting out of arcs. Kylo will see play but it's probably not the top Chiraneau build.

Who needs to boost out of arc if you can shoot first and blind the person that would be shooting you?

1 minute ago, VanderLegion said:

Who needs to boost out of arc if you can shoot first and blind the person that would be shooting you?

If.

Fenn CAN'T shoot you if he's out of arc. Fenn MIGHT NOT shoot you if you Kylo him.

4 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

If.

Fenn CAN'T shoot you if he's out of arc. Fenn MIGHT NOT shoot you if you Kylo him.

However, unless you put VI on RAC you won't be able to make an informed decision about arc, since Fenn hasn't moved yet.

And if you don't put VI on RAC, Fenn's already unloaded 5 hits to your face, stripped all your shields and probably critted you for good measure before you can do anything to him.

Kinda reading between the "Kylo will destroy everything" and "kylo is useless" lines here, practically, I think it's likely to be a powerful card (as intended), but not necessarily going to destroy everyone all the time. If Kylo really does go on a rip tear and become the new hotness netlist, then almost immediately people can start running some "Kylo hunting" lists. Multiple generics, especially with EPTs for instance. Soft counters like the original Chewie or Zeb. PS race to outpace RAC. This will then probably propagate natural suppression and rise-n-fall of the tactics and eventually balance out. This isn't like a U-Boats situation where the only counterplay was "get tough and pray". Mechanical counters exist in the game already. Obviously yeah, some people might have to adjust strategies. This is natural. You can't run the same tactics forever.

Just a clarification: integrated astromech stops the crit from Kylo, doesn't it?

Kylo killer, qu'est-ce que c'est?

BBBBZ, Crack Swarm, Swarm Leader, Rebellion (Lies) Chewbacca, Zeb Orrelios (pilot)...

2 minutes ago, LouisCypher said:

Just a clarification: integrated astromech stops the crit from Kylo, doesn't it?

I should think so! This all makes Luke (pilot) more interesting. He can regen shields, is less afraid of HSCP, and even has IA should the worst come to pass.

5 minutes ago, Verlaine said:

Kylo killer, qu'est-ce que c'est?

BBBBZ, Crack Swarm, Swarm Leader, Rebellion (Lies) Chewbacca, Zeb Orrelios (pilot)...

Talking Heads are always a good choice.

I've seen a few people suggest that choosing Determination over ot&er Elites just to counter I'll Show You the Dark Side means Kylo Ren has already done his job. In that case, I suggest making a list that wants torun Determination anyway. For example, Bossk with Determination + Greedo. You deal massive damage with Bossk's ability and deal a faceup damage on top of that. You'll take crits, too, but Determination gives you the chance kf discarding that damage. AND you're Kylo-proof.

I'm notsayingthis us the best build, but it's an example of countering Kylo while doing what you already want to do.

3 minutes ago, Budgernaut said:

I've seen a few people suggest that choosing Determination over ot&er Elites just to counter I'll Show You the Dark Side means Kylo Ren has already done his job. In that case, I suggest making a list that wants torun Determination anyway. For example, Bossk with Determination + Greedo. You deal massive damage with Bossk's ability and deal a faceup damage on top of that. You'll take crits, too, but Determination gives you the chance kf discarding that damage. AND you're Kylo-proof.

I'm notsayingthis us the best build, but it's an example of countering Kylo while doing what you already want to do.

The combo that works best is Determination Tel w/ Greedo and Salvaged Astromech. Pretty nifty get up.

3 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

Do that twice and you've dedicated your whole list to taking a single ship out of the fight for two turns.

If you dedicate your whole list to taking a ship out of the fight it shouldn't be THERE by the time the second shot connects.

Vader crew isn't remotely dead against any list. He ALWAYS offers you the option to drop 2HP to land a crit. Kylo only gives you that if you actually hit.

Rebels probably face the biggest impact from Kylo crew - they have the largest number of ships that rely on HP rather than green dice to not die.

(As regards Dash/Miranda, depends on whom the Kylo player focuses, but my answer largely boils down to 'conner nets stop RAC doing anything with Kylo, and possibly anything at all in the hands of a savvy player who brought big rocks'. And whoever you don't focus on blats you with a big turret attack, either a TLT or an HLC, or possibly a 4 die primary at R1, which will probably be reasonably accurate).

Well not all ships die in two turns even with vader crew, i know because I fly that variation all the time, sometimes dice suck or ships just have high hp, and rac is a lot harder to block then you think, because at least when I fly him, i take his position on the board as more important then just trying to sit at range 1-2. And I also use him with bringing big rocks so maybe your opponents just aren't that good with him. And if your blocking him, your not shooting him, so that's actually pretty good for him, and your unfocused, so juke vader is getting his hits in anyway. Plus RAC's title can help negate that whole plan, or I use the same points and just have ion bomb on him and ruin your blocking scheme all together.

Against rey falcon lists, ketsu bossk, vcx lists, even degaroo, , turn off dengar for two turns so you can shoot him without him shooting you twice, can be really helpful. There are plenty of good ships that you can't kill in two turns with rac, even defenders are tough to kill in two turns.

I'm not saying this is going to be the most op thing out there, but in the hands of a good player it can be competitive

To all the people who are so keen to slap Determination on their ships: no offense guys, Determination would certainly be a great choice to counter Kylo IF you were sure you're gonna face Kylos all day long. As it happens, whenever you go to a tournament you can't be sure what you're gonna face. And since currently Determination doesn't seem to be used much at all, I think it's safe to say it's not exactly the best use of your EPT slot against anything that doesn't include Kylo.

TLDR; it's easy enough to tailor your list to counter any specific threat. The problem is being able to counter ANYTHING - or at least, most of the top lists out there.

5 hours ago, Vineheart01 said:

Rebel also hurt in most of their ships have high shields low hull.

Corran will be scared witless of Kylo. Or Awings for that matter. And Corran is one of those ships that cant sacrifice his EPT for Determination (plus on a 2hull ship LOL bad idea)

A-Wings actually are one of the stronkest ships against this build. Take 4 Green Squadron, AT, CR, Opportunist, SS, and AWTP. Spam evades and HSCP is useless. Take minimal effort to stay out of arc and you're almost always negating one hit automatically. No eyeball or crits that roll? Heck, I might just either Evade or AT just enough to soak one damage onto shields. Gunner just sits there and checks his Twitter. Get the crit or the eyeball? OK, I'll play your game Trebek. I'll do my best to Evade them all and gamble that the next round of dice rolls go in my favor.

So my FGD fail me and I take a crit? That's one ship out of 4 that's out of commission for 1 round of firing (which I haven't taken yet). Or you could take my PS from 3 to 0 (lol), keep me from flying straight maneuvers for 1 turn (hello Boost), or lower my Ag by 1 until I roll to correct it (arguably a better crit for this build than BP). What am I not getting? Destroyed this turn as there's no DH or any other Ship crits being drawn. In return I have a chance to use Opportunist against you because if you used ISYTDS against me you didn't Focus. Get ready for a lot of red dice with little to no chance to evade them. Your Decimator can't withstand firepower of that magnitude for more than a couple of turns. And if you manage to destroy one of my A-Wings with your one other ace or couple of generics? Oh no... you took out one fighter right before I turn the game into 3:1 or 3:2... And yeah, it isn't strong against every build on the table like Palpaces. Almost like when the game is working well builds have opponents that they are very strong against and some that they are very weak against. Gotta hate that about this game right?

Playing Vassal, I've yet to lose against a Kylo build with this build. But but but this build has never made the cut befow you say! Yeah, that's another thing I really hate about this game. The meta NEVER changes.