1 hour ago, Lightrock said:

To all the people who are so keen to slap Determination on their ships: no offense guys, Determination would certainly be a great choice to counter Kylo IF you were sure you're gonna face Kylos all day long. As it happens, whenever you go to a tournament you can't be sure what you're gonna face. And since currently Determination doesn't seem to be used much at all, I think it's safe to say it's not exactly the best use of your EPT slot against anything that doesn't include Kylo.

TLDR; it's easy enough to tailor your list to counter any specific threat. The problem is being able to counter ANYTHING - or at least, most of the top lists out there.

I think that's kind of the thing though. IF Kylo is such a break out that he's really awesome and wins everything, then you break out your Determination list, or whatever other counterplay you want. Determination is mentioned a lot because it is a hard counter. ISYTDS literally does nothing if a ship has it.

It's a bit early for that kind of conclusions isn't it? I mean, a list would literally have to completely upset the meta for people to start building lists specifically to counter it. So far there's little to no evidence of that.

10 minutes ago, Lightrock said:

It's a bit early for that kind of conclusions isn't it? I mean, a list would literally have to completely upset the meta for people to start building lists specifically to counter it. So far there's little to no evidence of that.

Welcome to the X-Wing community, here is your free helmet to protect your head for when the sky falls.

Swarms of generics also arent terribly in vogue

Fly bomber ks instead. Competitive AND dont even attack!

Doubt it is a good idea to fly stuff like bbbbZ just in case of kylo though

Honestly kylo isnt that bad. The real problem is the stupid avoidable pwt

2 hours ago, Lightrock said:

It's a bit early for that kind of conclusions isn't it? I mean, a list would literally have to completely upset the meta for people to start building lists specifically to counter it. So far there's little to no evidence of that.

Ships get declared DOA within 30 minutes of their preview articles being posted, so yeah... that's the forums for ya.

3 hours ago, Lightrock said:

It's a bit early for that kind of conclusions isn't it? I mean, a list would literally have to completely upset the meta for people to start building lists specifically to counter it. So far there's little to no evidence of that.

At the same time, there are players who have already tested it out and have been (both online and on the table) since it was spoiled.

I flew RAC + VI + Gunner/Hotshot/Kylo backed up with a Brath + VI + X7 + Stealth (98 points) and it was nicely brutal against two / three ship lists.

Dengar + Manaroo

First crit was damaged cockpit, Dengar disappeared to PS0 which then allowed both RAC and Brath to pour on the damage. The second and third was blinded pilot. Would of been worse had the other player used the original damage deck because I would have chosen Injured Pilot and done away with his ability. Regardless, with Dengar unable to fire on two occasions, then unable to perform straight moves for two more turns, it was over quickly.

Fenn + Palob + Manaroo

Fenn was stripped of both focus tokens and dealt a lovely blinded pilot crit. Brath hit him for another hit for zero return. next turn, RAC had Fenn in arc and finished him off at PS10, Blinded Pilot crit was dealt to Palob which allowed Brath a nice range 1 shot at him without any return fire the following round. With Palob dead the subsequent round due to RAC, Manaroo was dealt the second blinded pilot and the stunned pilot crits before RAC died. Brath cleaned up due to a combination of having Manaroo bump for a damage and then the 4 K-turn for the kill shot.

Inquisitor + Omega Leader + Vess

Inquisitor died with zero hull and two shields due to two Shaken Pilot critical hits sneaking their way through.

Omega Leader was a massive pain (as always) but combination fire between both Brath and RAC saw her removed (RAC had 1 hull left at this point). A Blinded Pilot crit saved the Rear Admiral.

Now this is somewhat up for debate but, I assigned the Shaken Pilot Crit to Vess, he then revealed a K turn which is essentially a straight move with a spin at the end, Shaken Pilot says you cannot perform straight moves. We debated that as the K turn is called a K turn and not a "straight" he was allowed to do it, was that right?

Regardless, Vess suffered the second Blinded Pilot, which saved RAC again, however Brath wasn't able to put any damage through and the next turn Vess took out the Rear Admiral but not before he was assigned the Dark Side condition which was the Damaged Cockpit Critical.

What then proceeded was a boring joust fest between Brath and Vess. Despite Vess having one hull and three shields, it almost went to time. I eventually scrapped the win when a single crit was left un-cancelled, the condition card dealt the face-up damage card underneath the shields and that was game.

Corran / Miranda

Corran got caught and suffered a Shaken Pilot critical which meant that he had to bank or turn, neither was optimal due to rock placement and he ended up at range 1 of RAC. Four red dice later, a gunner use plus Hotshot saw a Damaged Cockpit crit slide through and Corran was gone, with four shield tokens remaining.

Miranda proved problematic, RAC was bleeding TLT and Connor Net/Sabine damage constantly but due to the low agility value of a K wing, she took two Blinded Pilots and a Stunned Pilot through the shields. RAC died but again, not before having a Damaged Cockpit waiting on the condition card. Brath engaged and for the second time in my life actually used his ability for the win.

My verdict:

The critical effects are OK but its the ability to put damage through shields which is the most disgusting benefit.

"When you suffer critical damage during an attack, you are instead dealt the chosen face-up Damage Card."

Unless of course I just played a day of X wing and interpreted the card completely wrong, in which case, I owe a few people a rematch and an apology.

K turn is a different bearing from Straight, yes.

The damage does go through shields, yes. He'd be basically useless if he plinked off shields each time.

How did you deal with Dengar's vengeance fire, in particular? It seems likely that he would have still been getting shots even with the Blinded Pilot crits.

You also described putting 5 crits on Dengar and implied that he was still alive which seems unlikely...

Corran had a Shield Upgrade?

I'd be interested to find out the detail of the lists you were facing here.

1 hour ago, thespaceinvader said:

K turn is a different bearing from Straight, yes.

The damage does go through shields, yes. He'd be basically useless if he plinked off shields each time.

How did you deal with Dengar's vengeance fire, in particular? It seems likely that he would have still been getting shots even with the Blinded Pilot crits.

You also described putting 5 crits on Dengar and implied that he was still alive which seems unlikely...

Corran had a Shield Upgrade?

I'd be interested to find out the detail of the lists you were facing here.

Well spotted! I may have remembered that incorrectly. I didn't take notes during the games as it was just a casual night of pew pew so this is coming from memory and i have slept since then.

The payback shot was what missed and flipped the Blinded Pilot card over on the two occasions it was in play. So the first instance, when he was hit with the damaged cockpit, he got his return shot on RAC, then Brath fired and then Dengar done his normal shot. The next turn however, when he was dealt the first Blinded Pilot, RAC was out of arc but Brath was caught so once the attack concluded, the Payback shot missed due to blinded pilot and Dengar fired at RAC at PS0. Was very handy as it effectively neuters the damage output of the list.

Corran had PtL, R2-D2, FCS and shield Upgrade as opposed to engine if i remember correctly. I asked what the reason behind that decision was as it drastically changes the dynamics of the list and apparently:

"if you spend your PTL action to boost and change your direction constantly, thus leaving you with only a single focus or evade token, why are you using PtL? Just dial in the turn instead and deal with it"

That may not be 100% accurate but you get the jist. Also, i have seen that build out tank the normal Corran list, that extra shield regeneration can be a life saver/point of annoyance depending on what side of the table you are standing.

I don't think Kylo is going to break the meta and be the top list going forward but he certainly has his uses, also, people didn't want to shoot at Brath (focus/evade and four agility will do that) but they couldn't roll dice at RAC most of the time either. During the first engagements, this is crucial.

19 minutes ago, Viktus106 said:

"if you spend your PTL action to boost and change your direction constantly, thus leaving you with only a single focus or evade token, why are you using PtL? Just dial in the turn instead and deal with it"

That's a weird opinion because you can also boost off a turn and get even more turning. The big one is being able to do a green 2 bank to regen and then boosting, or doing a 3 straight and boosting, also getting to regen.

1 minute ago, Panzeh said:

That's a weird opinion because you can also boost off a turn and get even more turning. The big one is being able to do a green 2 bank to regen and then boosting, or doing a 3 straight and boosting, also getting to regen.

Each to their own I guess, I can see the case from both sides. I mean, you bank, focus and boost. He turns, focus and evades. Doesn't need to regen if the focus/evade stops the damage in the first place.

However, boost is quite strong at denying shots out right sometimes.

Just now, Viktus106 said:

Each to their own I guess, I can see the case from both sides. I mean, you bank, focus and boost. He turns, focus and evades. Doesn't need to regen if the focus/evade stops the damage in the first place.

However, boost is quite strong at denying shots out right sometimes.

You still need to do your greens after you PTL. Shield does do something useful, though, just, IMO not as much as engine here.

Shield also means you're limiting your ability to turn once you've PTLed, meaning it's even easier to get behind you and stay there.

10 hours ago, AlexW said:

At the same time, there are players who have already tested it out and have been (both online and on the table) since it was spoiled.

Or sooner. The playtest crowd has been aware of the next wave's meta since at least last summer.

7 minutes ago, Engine25 said:

Or sooner. The playtest crowd has been aware of the next wave's meta since at least last summer.

Sort of. They test various iterations and not all playtesters test everything (and even then it might see changes at the last minute). Once it's spoiled, a significantly larger pool of players sees it and I'd guess it gets more testing in that first month after spoiling than it did in playtesting.

If my experience on an FFG playtesting group for other games is anything to go by there is VASTLY more work done with a card between spoiler & release than there ever was during playtesting. Farming playtesting out to enthusiastic members of the community is a poor way to run a railroad.

44 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

If my experience on an FFG playtesting group for other games is anything to go by there is VASTLY more work done with a card between spoiler & release than there ever was during playtesting. Farming playtesting out to enthusiastic members of the community is a poor way to run a railroad. don't think we've seen many actual changes (though there are a couple) between spoiler and release and thus not what I would call "work."

As for play time on a card, yeah, There's no way to get a playtest group to be as large as that group with a game this popular unless you open playtesting up to the public. I don't think that's realistic with the direction of this game though considering the IP, even if FFG were willing.

If you're talking about work/changes between spoiler and release, I don't think we've really seen many changes to cards in that time frame, though there are some but almost every card stays the same in that time in X-Wing because at that point, it's probably printing.

The fact is, no one knows how many RAC kylos will be flown. We do know that HSCP, gunner is effective on RAC and it is popular in many metas. Adding Kylo into the fray only makes it better. This isnt a new build, its adding onto an existing build

For at least two regionals (Chicago and Denver), it will be two days after release (and legal). What this means is that if the list you are taking cannot handle that build, you are potentially guaranteeing a loss if you wind up facing it. If that is the ONLY bad matchup you expect to face, determination might not be a bad option.

22 minutes ago, AlexW said:

As for play time on a card, yeah, There's no way to get a playtest group to be as large as that group with a game this popular unless you open playtesting up to the public. I don't think that's realistic with the direction of this game though considering the IP, even if FFG were willing.

If you're talking about work/changes between spoiler and release, I don't think we've really seen many changes to cards in that time frame, though there are some but almost every card stays the same in that time in X-Wing because at that point, it's probably printing.

Yeah I meant work as in 'work on how to use it/maximise it/break it' rather than changes.

Magic largely manages to get it right, but they've got VASTLY more infrastructure to make it happen. Their R&D department and future league catches most of the main problems way in advance because they're testing in a very systematic and structured way.