I'm really scared by that condition, especially when provided by a Kylo crew on a predator+gunner Chiraneu.
Has someone played it? The concrete chance of placing blinded pilot twice in a row seems very strong and could single handedly be the nail in coffin of many ships and builds, low agility high cost ones in particular.
Can someone reassure me that's not one of the most broken thing added to the game please?
I believe consensus is that Chiraneau can't really risk taking actions for Kylo instead of boosting out of arcs. Kylo will see play but it's probably not the top Chiraneau build.
Edited by Stay On The LeaderI played it, my list was:
RAC + VI,Emperor,Kylo,EI,Dauntless
Vader + Juke/Pred, ATC, EU
Very very scary list. Not broken by any means cause the threat falls of the later you are in a game as the pilot crits start to run out. But early you got 2-3 turns of free critting. Predator is not nessesary - i took EI to be able to perform Kylo+TL to maximize the damage.
Kylo Ren on Chiraneau will keep himself in check. It's a Decimator with nothing to avoid the BP crit, so it will handicap itself.
On top of that, it's an action competing with target lock, focus, or (most importantly) boost.
Its getting the same reaction as Boba Fett did, so I'm not too worried.
I tried RAC/Kylo pilot last night. WIll take some getting used to flying Kylo, and the build (particularly the Kylo side of it, the ONLY thing I'm sure of is Pattern Analyser...) is still in flux, but it seems like a solid core for a good list.
The important element is Rebel Captive on RAC to screw up targetting priority. RAC is still probably the primary target, but Kylo punches HARD. Doing RAC with kylo crew and a non-Kylo Upsilon is an interesting option, to allow RAC to use Kylo and still boost.
I tested it (played against it about 5 games) and it is brutal card - I am sure it will significiantly change the meta.
But in my opinion General Hux crew card will be as much, if not more, important in shaping state of X-Wing.
Can Confirm. I had Hux and Kylo, and Hux had much bigger impacts - and TBH I really wasn't playing him very effectively, kept forgetting how the list was supposed to work (Co-Ordinate Hux, clear stress, take second action).
Hux is mean to Defenders and that's great.
43 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:I believe consensus is that Chiraneau can't really risk taking actions for Kylo instead of boosting out of arcs. Kylo will see play but it's probably not the top Chiraneau build.
It depends on what are you facing: against BBBBZ or 4 tlt you would still us boost, but against a falcon, a dash rendar or 2 lancer? You show them the dark side and they won't shot back this turn or the next.
RAC doesn't really need action to land a crit on most non 3 green dice ships when he's r1-2 and this can really make some ships obsolete.
48 minutes ago, ThalanirIII said:Kylo Ren on Chiraneau will keep himself in check. It's a Decimator with nothing to avoid the BP crit, so it will handicap itself.
On top of that, it's an action competing with target lock, focus, or (most importantly) boost.
Its getting the same reaction as Boba Fett did, so I'm not too worried.
Predator-Kylo RAC counter itself and that might be a relief, but it's still a huge meta call. If I'm the only one bringing it to a tournament or I have enough luck to not get paired against the mirror, I'm still ruining the day to many other lists.
I'm not saying ISYTDS is overpowered, it doesn't look enough versatile to be op, but it can kick out 2 ships lists out the meta all alone. How am I supposed to play a non-determination non-chewbe Falcon? Dash Rendar? Ketsu? Bossk?
Boba needed to land a crit after the enemy ship has ended it's shields. That makes it way more slower and counterplayable. And he couldn't go on a faction with lots of built in way to land crits (RAC and adv. targeting computer Vader, just to name the most obvious culprits)
I really hope to being overreacting, that's why I made this topic. I would like to hear opinions of who played it, because it really scares me
One of the best player locally is toying with the idea of putting Kylo on his fearsome RAC. It certainly affects how I build my lists. Seeing Bossk neutered for 2 rounds with blinded pilot is unpleasant enough, realizing that to a RAC/Kylo, Bossk becomes at most a 6 hull ship is not any better. Stapling Determination to Bossk alleviates this, but then that's your EPT being forced upon you just in case you face the RAC/Kylo at any point. Stunned pilot would also be horrible on Bossk, IMHO.
The mirror match becomes a crazy initiative bid situation, since the first one to shoot will negate the other's turn for 2 rounds.
I'm not sure it'll shape the meta all that much long term, but with the regionals on the 18th, I'm sure there'll be plenty of them there and I'm planning for it!
I could also worry about PS0 on Fenn, but that seems to be the first hit he always gets anyways, so it's par for the course...
Thing is though, there's enough lists where even with only two ships shooting, they'll chew down RAC in two rounds anyway, and enough lists where even with Kylo and HotCoP and Gunner, RAC still won't hit, and there's enough stress control, and RAC is easy enough to block... that I don't think Kylo crew will have the huge effect people are worried about.
Hux, OTOH... Autodamage is still autodamage.
Determination.
Making some old cards valuable again.
Kylo Ren: FFG's way of getting people to use Determination since the new damage deck doesnt have that insanely dreadful "Lose your EPT/Pilot ability!" crit.
Given that Determination makes you lose your EPT to do it...
Yeah if youre using determination Kylo already got his value.
Not true.
If you use Determination you dont take any damage from Pilot trait crits. You dont flip them down, you discard them. Kylo is useless and any stray pilot crits also go away.
Paying 1pt to counter a 3pt card is totally worth it. Except on the few that kinda have to have a specific EPT to even be viable (interceptors)
11 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:Not true.
If you use Determination you dont take any damage from Pilot trait crits. You dont flip them down, you discard them. Kylo is useless and any stray pilot crits also go away.
Paying 1pt to counter a 3pt card is totally worth it. Except on the few that kinda have to have a specific EPT to even be viable (interceptors)
If you are giving up much better choices just to be safe from Kylo, he is already doing damage. You can always be doing much better than determination. Most ships with EPTs are losing value taking determination.
11 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:Not true.
If you use Determination you dont take any damage from Pilot trait crits. You dont flip them down, you discard them. Kylo is useless and any stray pilot crits also go away.
Paying 1pt to counter a 3pt card is totally worth it. Except on the few that kinda have to have a specific EPT to even be viable (interceptors)
Paying one point *and your EPT* to counter a 3 point card however, is not.
The EPT is probably the most important slot in the game after titles for those ships that use them.
I mean, for instance, with RAC you're giving up the ability to arc dodge every single PS9 pilot, and many PS8 pilots. With others, you're giving up Juke, Mindlink, Lone Wolf, PTL, Expertise, etc etc etc etc etc.
Just eat the horrible crits. Or block RAC.
Dauntless. Cant block the RAC to stop Kylo.
And i'd rather perform less optimal than not perform at all thanks to double blind or im dead with shields still on me.
10 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:Paying one point *and your EPT* to counter a 3 point card however, is not.
The EPT is probably the most important slot in the game after titles for those ships that use them.
I mean, for instance, with RAC you're giving up the ability to arc dodge every single PS9 pilot, and many PS8 pilots. With others, you're giving up Juke, Mindlink, Lone Wolf, PTL, Expertise, etc etc etc etc etc.
Just eat the horrible crits. Or block RAC.
Any decimator is vulnerable to crits. They tend to pile up. I understand the rationale for Predator, PtL, etc., but Determination was already a pretty tempting choice for them. Now Kylo is going to make that choice even more tempting.
It is also a good idea to think of context. As a 1 pt. EPT, Determination does not always compete with PtL. You may not be able to spare the points, or it could cost you Autothrusters on a wingman.
Now you're paying 5 points for him?
Grand, my other 3 ships will kill RAC. Have fun with that. Or, you know, you just miss anyway, because you've not taken a dice mod action, and I'm flying palp defenders or Fenn and he's at range 1 in your arc because you're only PS8 because you're rocking Determination, or Assaj and I've got focus/evade and Latts. Or you don't roll any eyeballs/crits. Or you get one blinded pilot off and then remain double stressed for the rest of the game because Assaj or Tactician or Stressbot hits you on top of your stress from Dauntless. Or are you bringing Inspiring Recruit too, in which case Kylo's costing you 6 points and 2 crew slots. And your EPT and title. Which is the flip side of the thing: for 3 points and a crew slot, he'd BETTER be good. That's a big cost. Consider that instead you could have Rebel Captive or Vader, or pay 2 more points and get Gunner or one more point and get HotCoP, etc etc.
I think Kylo might bring a resurgence of otherwise good lists that will counter him by dint of their existence (in particular, young Chewie could well make a comeback) but mostly... You're paying 3+ points for a card that doesn't make your attack better and doesn't make your defence better.
In the high level competitive meta, such cards commonly get ignored in favour of cards which DO do one or both of those things, because that's how you win.
That's why I'd be a lot more scared to see Hux. Even the tankiest token tank can't live through autodamage effects. The tankiest token tanks can just ignore Kylo because you can't hit them, and tanky token tanks are the meta right now with Fenn and Assaj and Defenders still in the ascendant.
Kylo crew's going to be an annoyance, but I don't think he's this big bugbear you're making him out to be. I'm a lot more concerned about the pilot version to be honest. Big Rey is making it really clear just how intensely painful reliably damaging 4-to-5-die attacks are attached to a chassis that doesn't fold like a wet towel the way Phantoms sometimes can and has an EPT that isn;t welded to VI the way Phantoms are, and Kylo can get the same level of reliability with Expertise or FCS/Gunner, AND make people less willing to shoot him because of ISYTDS (and maybe Captive too if you're feeling like stacking the mean). And he's more likely to push crits through because of the extra die.
Iunno, I'm happy to agree to differ, but I'd be a little surprised if Kylo doesn't go the same way as Tractor Beams and TIE/D and Boba crew - wildly hyped up pre-release, everyone really scared of them horribly warping the meta, but ultimately, largely abandoned in favour of more directly-useful options that swung under the radar a bit or were outright denigrated, like Mindlink, or Zuckuss, or Manaroo, or /x7.
Edited by thespaceinvader1 minute ago, Verlaine said:Any decimator is vulnerable to crits. They tend to pile up. I understand the rationale for Predator, PtL, etc., but Determination was already a pretty tempting choice for them. Now Kylo is going to make that choice even more tempting.
It is also a good idea to think of context. As a 1 pt. EPT, Determination does not always compete with PtL. You may not be able to spare the points, or it could cost you Autothrusters on a wingman.
When did you last see a Deci with Determination make a cut?
I don't think I ever have. Pred, sure. VI, sure. I don't think I've ever seen a single ship with Determination in the wild, except MAYBE on Leebo, once.
When has Kylo ever made the cut? oh wait hes not in the meta yet.
Thats the point. Theres a reason for Determination in a Deci right now because its so fat and soaks crits odds are it will toss 1 card, which makes it worth it in terms of points alone. If Kylo turns into the new standard, pushing palpaces out the window, i guarantee Determination will appear again.
Also i love how close-minded people are. Theres far more to this game than the upgrades, flying straight is a hell of a lot more important than ideal upgrades. I dont fear palpaces, never have and never will. I hate them purely because they force a REALLY long game and no other reason.
Testing the below list this evening, quite excited honestly.
TIE Bomber: •Tomax Bren (39)
Lightweight Frame (2)
Crack Shot (1)
Extra Munitions (2)
Homing Missiles (5)
Homing Missiles (5)
TIE/FO Fighter: •"Omega Leader" (26)
Juke (2)
Comm Relay (3)
Lambda-Class Shuttle: •Colonel Jendon (35)
•ST-321 (3)
•Darth Vader (3)
•Kylo Ren (3)
Total: 100/100
Edited by Jemmers4 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:
Now you're paying 5 points for him?
Grand, my other 3 ships will kill RAC. Have fun with that. Or, you know, you just miss anyway, because you've not taken a dice mod action, and I'm flying palp defenders or Fenn and he's at range 1 in your arc because you're only PS8 because you're rocking Determination, or Assaj and I've got focus/evade and Latts. Or you don't roll any eyeballs/crits. Or you get one blinded pilot off and then remain double stressed for the rest of the game because Assaj or Tactician or Stressbot hits you on top of your stress from Dauntless. Or are you bringing Inspiring Recruit too, in which case Kylo's costing you 6 points and 2 crew slots. And your EPT and title. Which is the flip side of the thing: for 3 points and a crew slot, he'd BETTER be good. That's a big cost. Consider that instead you could have Rebel Captive or Vader, or pay 2 more points and get Gunner or one more point and get HotCoP, etc etc.
I think Kylo might bring a resurgence of otherwise good lists that will counter him by dint of their existence (in particular, young Chewie could well make a comeback) but mostly... You're paying 3+ points for a card that doesn't make your attack better and doesn't make your defence better.
In the high level competitive meta, such cards commonly get ignored in favour of cards which DO do one or both of those things, because that's how you win.
That's why I'd be a lot more scared to see Hux. Even the tankiest token tank can't live through autodamage effects. The tankiest token tanks can just ignore Kylo because you can't hit them, and tanky token tanks are the meta right now with Fenn and Assaj and Defenders still in the ascendant.
Kylo crew's going to be an annoyance, but I don't think he's this big bugbear you're making him out to be. I'm a lot more concerned about the pilot version to be honest. Big Rey is making it really clear just how intensely painful reliably damaging 4-to-5-die attacks are attached to a chassis that doesn't fold like a wet towel the way Phantoms sometimes can and has an EPT that isn;t welded to VI the way Phantoms are, and Kylo can get the same level of reliability with Expertise or FCS/Gunner, AND make people less willing to shoot him because of ISYTDS (and maybe Captive too if you're feeling like stacking the mean). And he's more likely to push crits through because of the extra die.
Iunno, I'm happy to agree to differ, but I'd be a little surprised if Kylo doesn't go the same way as Tractor Beams and TIE/D and Boba crew - wildly hyped up pre-release, everyone really scared of them horribly warping the meta, but ultimately, largely abandoned in favour of more directly-useful options that swung under the radar a bit or were outright denigrated, like Mindlink, or Zuckuss, or Manaroo, or /x7.
I think you are missing my point. I never said "omg Kylo too stronk, it will win everything with no efforts".
I only said that Kylo, in the right environment (I was thinking about Predator+Gunner RAC, a ship who can reliable hits and deal crits even without actions) will make bringing many other ships and lists a big gamble in any tournament.
How does a Miranda+Dash deal with ISYTDS? How does a Kanan+Biggs? A Bossk+Ketsu?
Are we really going to see tons of 95 points initiative bid mirrors and determination, a lackluster elite, mandatory just in case you got bad luck and get paired with one of the three guys running Kylo at a big event?
I really hope to be ovvereacting
16 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:When did you last see a Deci with Determination make a cut?
I don't think I ever have. Pred, sure. VI, sure. I don't think I've ever seen a single ship with Determination in the wild, except MAYBE on Leebo, once.
And maybe now, you will.