Hey all!

In celebration of women everywhere, but particularly women in gaming, Amanda, Lyndsey and myself, from the Chance Cube Podcast, have gotten together to talk Destiny and the challenges that sometimes come along with being a female in gaming.

Feel free to have a listen and leave us feedback!

Thanks for having a look.

http://www.thechancecube.com/2017/01/24/the-chance-cube-episode-xx-women-in-gaming/

Really liked the discussion. As is (sadly) expected, a lot of the experiences discussed mirror what I have seen or experienced as well. Progress is being made, but it's still an uphill fight.

A super important lesson for my fellow male-identifying players out there: If you see people being sexist jerks, don't just shrug it off as "not your business", or "just talk". When you hear people with differing backgrounds or identities tell their stories of things that make them feel uncomfortable or unwelcome, don't say "well I never see that happen in my store" or "you're making a big deal out of a simple joke / trash talk". If someone tells you that your behavior is making them uncomfortable or unwelcome, listen to what they are saying rather than getting defensive and insisting that your behavior is harmless - you aren't the one who gets to determine that.

Don't be complicit in perpetuating these problems. If you see people being crappy, call them out. The only way things change is if we ALL work on making change happen.

PS:

Massive fist-bump for the Ahsoka love. Ahsoka is the best. When she is released in card form for Destiny, I will be hard pressed to play any other deck ever.

PPS:

Except for the crew of the Ghost . Because they are also amazing.

Couldn't that be a lesson for everyone, not just "male-identifying players"?

I really love the idea of calling people out for being sexist jerks or making lewd comments etc. However the problem with that is that most people in this world are very quiet, contained in their own little world until the idea of being anonymous comes into play. We are talking on the internet right now where most people throw around their opinion like its the word of god. You get those same people into a room together and you could hear the crickets in the background.

I am in a line of work where nobody likes me. I am in the field every day getting yelled at, threatened and other fun things and the first people I tell people who want to do what I do or I train someone in my job is that you have to get used to being yelled at without responding like normal people would. You can tell almost immediately once someone gets yelled at if they are cut out for it or not.

Now I am not saying that by reacting to a comment will get you yelled at, but the idea of confrontation is the turnoff for some people. I was in a gaming store a couple weeks ago and an argument broke out and before I even knew that it was almost coming to blows between two people someone interjected themselves into the situation and completely stopped it in its tracks by making both parties accountable. That is what most game stores need is someone or some people who are there on a regular basis to keep their ears open for all types of comments. Not just sexist, racist etc but all comments and to hold people accountable for their actions. We aren't anonymous keyboard warriors when we are at game stores and I would like to see actions called out but I think it needs to be taken as a whole and not with pocket scenarios.

3 hours ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

Couldn't that be a lesson for everyone, not just "male-identifying players"?

Given that the issue at hand is women in gaming and society-level sexism, no.

The attitudes and behaviors that need changing are those of men. Usually men who don't have the faintest clue that what they are doing is sexist and harmful because of the passive sexism that is part and parcel of their culture.

Also, women have been fighting this fight essentially forever. You asking "doesn't this apply to non-males?" is like asking someone who is actively engaged in putting out a house fire to help put out that house fire. They're already doing that work - it's the folks who aren't helping who need to step up.

If your question is "Are there sexist behaviors perpetrated by women and nonbinary folk against women?" , then yes, absolutely there are - that's how a sexist culture works, and we're all victims of it. That said, that's not the topic at hand, and trying to inject it into this one is unintentionally distracting at best... and at worst, that exact approach is often used by men to derail and silence discussions of sexism and how to fight it.

2 hours ago, Thanoseid said:

I really love the idea of calling people out for being sexist jerks or making lewd comments etc. However the problem with that...

Not everyone is comfortable speaking up, but once someone does, it becomes easier for the next person to do so, which makes it easier for the next person (and so on and so on), and eventually that shifts attitudes to a place where (in an ideal world) we don't need to speak up about bigoted behaviors anymore because people stop exhibiting them.

If someone is uncomfortable speaking directly to an offending party in a situation for any reason, there are other options available. Speaking to the store owner or event organizer is a great approach.

You're implying, perhaps indirectly, that women can't also be indifferent, "shrug off," ignore, or otherwise enable people being "sexist jerks." Hell, just look at our last election. Shouldn't your message of accountability be addressed to everyone? I feel that's kind of the point in planting your soap box on a Star Wars forum, of all places; this really isn't the best place to disassemble the patriarchy. Small steps.

That said, you're welcome to your opinions, and I won't even stare down my nose at you for voicing them here, but I wanted you to know what it looks like from someone else's perspective. Discussions about gender inclusivity very, very rarely end well on these forums.

20 minutes ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

You're implying, perhaps indirectly, that women can't also be indifferent, "shrug off," ignore, or otherwise enable people being "sexist jerks." Hell, just look at our last election. Shouldn't your message of accountability be addressed to everyone? I feel that's kind of the point in planting your soap box on a Star Wars forum, of all places; this really isn't the best place to disassemble the patriarchy.

That said, you're welcome to your opinions, and I won't even stare down my nose at you for voicing them here, but I wanted you to know what it looks like from someone else's perspective. Discussions about gender inclusivity very, very rarely end well on these forums.

I'm not implying that at all. I added an example for clarity in an edit above that directly addresses your perception here. Women have already been fighting sexism for their entire lives - it's not women who need to be asked to step up.

Literally everywhere is the best place to disassemble sexism. What better place to fight as vehemently as possible than the spaces and subcultures I love most?

Gosh, thanks. That's so generous of you to "not stare down your nose" at me. I'm super grateful.

Discussions about bigotry "rarely end well here"? You don't suppose maybe that's because there's still a problem that needs to be addressed?

We do what we can, where we can. Everyone has their priorities. Do I agree that it's a cause worth fighting for? Certainly. Do I have the time and energy to do so? Not always. Do I feel resentful to have a finger pointed in my face because I'm incapable of curing all the world's ills? Absolutely. If you want to be successful you might also want to consider being more tactful in your approach. Like I said, baby steps. I've been here long enough to see how these conversations usually play out, and the current tone isn't exactly setting us up for success.

Thanks Aaron, you scored some pretty solid points.

A lot of men perceive what they say as not being sexist even if it is, and when women try to explain why said thing is sexist, they are not even considered. The simple fact that previous poster says "Discussions about gender inclusivity very, very rarely end well on these forums" is quite a grave affirmation: first of all because there should be no need to debate gender inclusivity (this need arises due to the fact that there's no gender inclusivity at all) and then because this sentence implies the incapability of people to listen to each other (otherwise every problem will have a pacific resolution).

I'd go further by saying that there's no inclusivity of sort in considering gay / lesbian rights in games: I don't remember a single game I own (or have played) where it's simply stated that the love interest of this or that character is not straight (apart from one female character in Android, IIRC). Beware I'm not asking for a gay pride game, I'm just stating that it'd be interesting widening the horizons, in the same way as it's commonly accepted that a multicultural society has to be represented.

Not every game can be like Magic, sadly; a year or two ago they introduced their first transgender character. This past summer they printed a gay couple as the marquee legendary for one of their annual Commander products.

We're not there yet, but we're getting there, Julia.

Magic has actually been taking huge strides in representing people of different orientations, and ability, and gender in the past few years, with multiple gay and lesbian characters (and likely at least one bi) appearing in cards and in the stories, a transwoman featured as an important character, a character who would be on the autism spectrum as a main character, a character in a wheelchair, an agender character, an entire race that is non-gendered, and among all of that, a slew of people of color. That's just in the past few years.

I've also noticed a sharp increase in pen and paper RPGs making an effort to represent people, and more board games seem to be including more diversity options than the previous common ratios of "here's 5 generic white dudes and one sexy blonde woman"

To be fair, a lot of people these days fall into the autism spectrum somewhere. You can thank the APA for that one. I'm not sure about the progressive value of genderless and aesexual beings in a fantasy realm, though, outside of thought provoking conversations centered around the use of pronouns.

This is a topic close to my heart. Aaron hits many of the points I would have made, and it's good Julia (And the crew at Chance cube) feel comfortable talking about this. I honestly wish I could see more of it online and in person, as I feel we personally have a long way to go in evening out our treatment of minorities in all facets of life. I just don't see any reason you can argue against equality. We might argue about how to get there, but honestly its the minorities voices that count here. Why should we tell them what they need?

At first blush I loved rogue one. On the face of it I thought they did ok. I blatantly noticed the variation in race, I saw Women characters have speaking parts and even saw some older pilots (one woman in particular) on screen. But it didn't quite sit right. I started thinking about how all but Jynn in the protagonists were male, then on second look through I struggled to see women in the background. And I am at a loss to see why? Arent they 51% of the population? Or is Star wars a place where females are rare? Surely not. And in the end it took my wife getting really mad (Isn't that always the case fellow husbands? ;-) ) to solidify all the things that were just on the peripheral. I take take my cues from her as she has struggled all her life for representation, equality. I can't possibly know or fathom. So all I can do is listen.

What I do know is that things cannot change without the majorities aid. Call it out, and try and educate. It takes a mature person to admit they are wrong and part of the problem. We honestly dont know sometimes we are being jerks. After all I think we all see ourselves as decent people. It's not meant to be blame. If we all pledge to make life better for everyone, we all benefit.

A

Changing the world, one Star Wars forum at a time.

Discussing a topic like this is like walking on glass. Current P.C. culture has too many triggers that lead to unwarranted anger.

Don't think there is room for open discussion with that mind set, and people tend to tense up; both sides.

Best way to handle most mistreats as an adult is to respond astertavily to it. If people don't want to change, then don't waste your time with them; their loss.

Unfortunately sexism and racism still exists. There are defiantly cases where "Just being assertive" won't work. Do not feel, or have seen, many of those cases in my years of board gaming.

The cases that have been seen were easily resolved with assertive communication. Please remember, most people are not "out to get you" or pushing a sexist or racist agenda.

Most of the time they just do not realize it. Which is why discussion about the topic is important.

Appreciated the podcast, and hope you continue.

33 minutes ago, Keigi said:

Discussing a topic like this is like walking on glass. Current P.C. culture has too many triggers that lead to unwarranted anger.

Don't think there is room for open discussion with that mind set, and people tend to tense up; both sides.

Best way to handle most mistreats as an adult is to respond astertavily to it. If people don't want to change, then don't waste your time with them; their loss.

Unfortunately sexism and racism still exists. There are defiantly cases where "Just being assertive" won't work. Do not feel, or have seen, many of those cases in my years of board gaming.

The cases that have been seen were easily resolved with assertive communication. Please remember, most people are not "out to get you" or pushing a sexist or racist agenda.

Most of the time they just do not realize it. Which is why discussion about the topic is important.

Appreciated the podcast, and hope you continue.

Just to clarify, I really don't see a problem with the message, just the medium. Combining a potentially volatile topic with anonymous posters and next to no accountability (the mods are like ghosts around here) is a near recipe for disaster, hence my earlier warnings. We might just be better off sticking to discussion of space-wizard-samurai and their lazer swords.

22 minutes ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

We might just be better off sticking to discussion of space-wizard-samurai and their lazer swords.

There is no "Z" in Laser because it is an acronym for " l ight a mplification by s timulated e mission of r adiation".

Beyond that I don't care what boxes you tick for any of these questions being asked, you are a gamer and I am too. For as long as I don't break the rule of Wheaton, let's play games.