1. Play a low bid list with high activations and 2 MC30s.

2. Learn how to have both MC30s targeting the same ship, 1 before and 1 after target activation, using all of above advice and thinking in terms of threat area: how can I position so that I can threaten best an incoming ship and profit from activation order. Threatening the right area leads to either cold hard damage or an enemy ship being redirected into a suboptimal position.

3. Remove the 1st MC30 from the equation: this is how you play a mc30 as 2nd player, or as 1st player when you want to get really close to what demolisher can offer.

Also, nav dials all the way.

1 hour ago, itzSteve said:

Since Ginkapo hasn't shown up to represent his Acbar shrimps....I will. I love equipping a torpedo mc30 with enhanced armament and sensor teams. Three reds, 2 blues, 3 blacks can be the hardest hitting mc30 out there.

I was content to let Padawan Matt Antilles speak on my behalf. I do appreciate the plug young Steve

I'm actually a bigger fan of Rapid reload, OE, Intel officer, Admo, xi-7 on a torp with Ackbar. Get home one nearby and watch things crumble. Especially if you get the Holy Grail and double side arc your target. Throwing 16 attack dice into one target in an activation is very satisfying.

Good point Comatose about the inside turns. Its always something I forget to mention, but have started to use heavily since they where introduced to me. I will point out your image is flawed though, since you have the frigate in two different starting positions. There are some ships that shine with inside turns, and MC30s are definitely in the list.

I also thought of a second point to add to the discussion. How to use your MC30(s) to counter threaten. This is one of the biggest ways I can make use of MC30s as second player, right alongside range control to force your opponent into arc. If you have 2 MC30s, you can get both into position on two different targets. Your opponent will only be able to move one out of danger, and your other MC30 can unleash it's fury. If you only have one MC30, you can use it when your opponent threatens one of your other valuable ships. By using your MC30 to threaten another of their ships, (or positioned such that if their threatening ship goes it will land in range of your MC30), you can force a hard decision on your opponent. This does usually mean you take some damage in return, so you need to be sure you are making your attacks worthwhile.

I've actually taken this idea and it is where my 3 MC30 lists originate from. If I'm first player, I can threaten three ships, which means I get two shots off on my opponent. However, one does need top be careful when splitting firepower. Usually if I'm splitting my threats, its against ships I'll reliably be able to kill, otherwise I would risk not killing anything. OR if I am going after bigger game, I make sure my attack runs are vectored to allow follow-up attacks to finish off the wounded ships.

2 minutes ago, JJs Juggernaut said:

Good point Comatose about the inside turns. Its always something I forget to mention, but have started to use heavily since they where introduced to me. I will point out your image is flawed though, since you have the frigate in to different starting positions. There are some ships that shine with inside turns, and MC30s are definitely in the list.

Doh! I was going for capturing the concept in one photo and didn't even realize what I did. To make it correct, I'd clone a ship in the same starting position and then move both separately. The concept still works though: the front of an inside turn is not as far forward as an outside turn.

1 hour ago, itzSteve said:

Since Ginkapo hasn't shown up to represent his Acbar shrimps....I will. I love equipping a torpedo mc30 with enhanced armament and sensor teams. Three reds, 2 blues, 3 blacks can be the hardest hitting mc30 out there.

Not even close, really. Unless you're regularly catching something in both full broadsides, giving up that double arc is just not worth it at all.

Ackbar shrimp side arc, max damage:

(2+2+2)+(1+1)+(2+2+2) = 14

ACM shrimp double arc, max damage:

(1+2+2+2)+(1+1+2+2+2+2) = 17

Ackbar expected damage:

(3*.75)+(2*.75)+(3*1) = 6.75

ACM double arc expected damage:

(5*1.25)+(3*.75)+(2*(1-(.75^4)))+(2*(1-(.75^6))) = 6.25 + 2.25 + 1.37 + 1.64 = 11.51

Now, of course there are lots of other factors in play: engagement range, ability to get the double arc, ability to split the uprights with Ackbar, Mon Mothma canceling crits...

But I played the Ackbar Star Destroyers--before they were called that--for a few months mid-wave2, and the difference when I switched to a double-arc build was substantial.

The double side arcs are devastating when you get them, but not at all reliable enough to be worth building a list around.

Sensor teams

H9

Alright, I have to like both of those. You two are just too good!

19 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

Not even close, really. Unless you're regularly catching something in both full broadsides, giving up that double arc is just not worth it at all.

Ackbar shrimp side arc, max damage:

(2+2+2)+(1+1)+(2+2+2) = 14

ACM shrimp double arc, max damage:

(1+2+2+2)+(1+1+2+2+2+2) = 17

Ackbar expected damage:

(3*.75)+(2*.75)+(3*1) = 6.75

ACM double arc expected damage:

(5*1.25)+(3*.75)+(2*(1-(.75^4)))+(2*(1-(.75^6))) = 6.25 + 2.25 + 1.37 + 1.64 = 11.51

Now, of course there are lots of other factors in play: engagement range, ability to get the double arc, ability to split the uprights with Ackbar, Mon Mothma canceling crits...

But I played the Ackbar Star Destroyers--before they were called that--for a few months mid-wave2, and the difference when I switched to a double-arc build was substantial.

The double side arcs are devastating when you get them, but not at all reliable enough to be worth building a list around.

Your math is flawed as you added ACM to the equation. Take the ACM off and it only puts out 13 max damage. If both variants add ACM to their ships, that is the only way it moves past it in max damage, and then only by 1.

1 hour ago, JJs Juggernaut said:

I'm actually a bigger fan of Rapid reload, OE, Intel officer, Admo, xi-7 on a torp with Ackbar. Get home one nearby and watch things crumble. Especially if you get the Holy Grail and double side arc your target. Throwing 16 attack dice into one target in an activation is very satisfying.

Good point Comatose about the inside turns. Its always something I forget to mention, but have started to use heavily since they where introduced to me. I will point out your image is flawed though, since you have the frigate in two different starting positions. There are some ships that shine with inside turns, and MC30s are definitely in the list.

I also thought of a second point to add to the discussion. How to use your MC30(s) to counter threaten. This is one of the biggest ways I can make use of MC30s as second player, right alongside range control to force your opponent into arc. If you have 2 MC30s, you can get both into position on two different targets. Your opponent will only be able to move one out of danger, and your other MC30 can unleash it's fury. If you only have one MC30, you can use it when your opponent threatens one of your other valuable ships. By using your MC30 to threaten another of their ships, (or positioned such that if their threatening ship goes it will land in range of your MC30), you can force a hard decision on your opponent. This does usually mean you take some damage in return, so you need to be sure you are making your attacks worthwhile.

I've actually taken this idea and it is where my 3 MC30 lists originate from. If I'm first player, I can threaten three ships, which means I get two shots off on my opponent. However, one does need top be careful when splitting firepower. Usually if I'm splitting my threats, its against ships I'll reliably be able to kill, otherwise I would risk not killing anything. OR if I am going after bigger game, I make sure my attack runs are vectored to allow follow-up attacks to finish off the wounded ships.

I love everything about this post except the fact that you have one of those Rapid Reload MC30s in our CC...

Your second point is so huge. You really need to keep that on the down-low. That is such an important 2nd player tactic. Threaten two (or more) things and force your opponent into tough choices.

24 minutes ago, itzSteve said:

Your math is flawed as you added ACM to the equation. Take the ACM off and it only puts out 13 max damage. If both variants add ACM to their ships, that is the only way it moves past it in max damage, and then only by 1.

Sure I added ACM to it, that was the premise. Keep in mind, I gave your build the benefit of an expensive offensive admiral. Even benefiting from economy of scale--which benefits your build--with 4 MC30's all taking ACM, I'm spending 28 points on ACM; you're spending 38 on that Admiral.

Look at the overall costs and scaling, bearing in mind that scaling up benefits Ackbar and not the ACM build. I've even thrown a useless Dodonna onto the latter build to account for the admiral tax.

Ackbar (350/400)
===============
MC30c Torpedo Frigate (63 + 53)
+ Admiral Ackbar (38)
+ Sensor Team (5)
+ Enhanced Armament (10)
MC30c Torpedo Frigate (63 + 15)
+ Sensor Team (5)
+ Enhanced Armament (10)
MC30c Torpedo Frigate (63 + 15)
+ Sensor Team (5)
+ Enhanced Armament (10)
MC30c Torpedo Frigate (63 + 15)
+ Sensor Team (5)
+ Enhanced Armament (10)

Any Admiral (348/400)
====================
MC30c Torpedo Frigate (63 + 39)
+ General Dodonna (20)
+ Ordnance Experts (4)
+ Assault Concussion Missiles (7)
+ H9 Turbolasers (8)
MC30c Torpedo Frigate (63 + 19)
+ Ordnance Experts (4)
+ Assault Concussion Missiles (7)
+ H9 Turbolasers (8)
MC30c Torpedo Frigate (63 + 19)
+ Ordnance Experts (4)
+ Assault Concussion Missiles (7)
+ H9 Turbolasers (8)
MC30c Torpedo Frigate (63 + 19)
+ Ordnance Experts (4)
+ Assault Concussion Missiles (7)
+ H9 Turbolasers (8)

Again, the star destroyers certainly benefit in certain situations. The two lists fly very differently: the star destroyers are easier to position and get more persistent damage off and deal higher peak damage at both long and medium ranges; the ACM aim to overwhelm defenses at concentrated points of combat, and deal more damage at close. All I was doing was addressing the point that they're the hardest-hitting.

... And baiting the sensor team reaction out of Ginkapo.

... And baiting the sensor team reaction out of Ginkapo. ...Nice!

...but there you are changing things again with the Admiral tax. Using Dodonna in your example is not representing YOUR list. You use Mon Mothma in YOUR list. Therefore, Acbar is only 8pts more, not the 18pt. difference you are trying to convey. Change to MM and your build now goes up to 358/400, which makes the Acbar list more economical.

I do agree about how different the two lists fly. There is also the unknown fickle red dice in the mix, although "Sensor teams" mitigate that issue somewhat. You are swapping out a blue hit for an accuracy with your H9, but I can burn a blank red to change another blank red into an accuracy without sacrificing my blues. The Acbar list can also get an extra round of shooting before it gets to black range on the way in and on the way out if it needs to from medium or long range.

1 hour ago, itzSteve said:

... And baiting the sensor team reaction out of Ginkapo. ...Nice!

...but there you are changing things again with the Admiral tax. Using Dodonna in your example is not representing YOUR list. You use Mon Mothma in YOUR list. Therefore, Acbar is only 8pts more, not the 18pt. difference you are trying to convey. Change to MM and your build now goes up to 358/400, which makes the Acbar list more economical.

I do agree about how different the two lists fly. There is also the unknown fickle red dice in the mix, although "Sensor teams" mitigate that issue somewhat. You are swapping out a blue hit for an accuracy with your H9, but I can burn a blank red to change another blank red into an accuracy without sacrificing my blues. The Acbar list can also get an extra round of shooting before it gets to black range on the way in and on the way out if it needs to from medium or long range.

And yet a H9 & Blue dice, can guarantee an accuracy for a double arc, front/side you aren't doing that with Sensor teams and Red dice, even if it was not exhaust to use.

H9 and Blue dice on an MC30 are about as nasty as it gets.

5 minutes ago, TheEasternKing said:

And yet a H9 & Blue dice, can guarantee an accuracy for a double arc, front/side you aren't doing that with Sensor teams and Red dice, even if it was not exhaust to use.

H9 and Blue dice on an MC30 are about as nasty as it gets.

Good point!...You are burning "two" blues for a H9 accuracy on both arcs. Even less total damage...LOL.

Curiously, if we are going there. Trying to double arc makes planning your escape route much harder...

That never seems to be discussed

6 minutes ago, itzSteve said:

Good point!...You are burning "two" blues for a H9 accuracy on both arcs. Even less total damage...LOL.

Or not having Brace for 2 shots?

Blue 1 hit, Black 1 hit, 1 hit/crit : Brace to 2 damage

Blue Accuracy, Black 1 hit, 1 hit/crit : Take 3 damage

I'm not seeing many scenarios where removing Brace results in lower damage, than not removing the brace to have 1 extra damage dice.

Edited to add : Or Scatter on a flotilla.

being able to guarantee the removal of the defenders most powerful defense token, does not result in "even less total damage."

Maybe. Just maybe, its the one Ard baited me with. Dont really want to argue as the reality is both methods work.

Just if you are going to double arc, use expanded launchers......

7 minutes ago, TheEasternKing said:

Or not having Brace for 2 shots?

Blue 1 hit, Black 1 hit, 1 hit/crit : Brace to 2 damage

Blue Accuracy, Black 1 hit, 1 hit/crit : Take 3 damage

I'm not seeing many scenarios where removing Brace results in lower damage, than not removing the brace to have 1 extra damage dice.

Edited to add : Or Scatter on a flotilla.

being able to guarantee the removal of the defenders most powerful defense token, does not result in "even less total damage."

Lando, Admonition, and MM at close range for Evade reroll could have something to say about that...

Its less about the total damage and more about the timeliness of the damage and where you're putting it. You want to be able to lock the redirect on a Corvette and Brace on a Raider. That basically makes both of them one-shottable. Sure, you can easily kill both on a double arc, but even if all the one arc kill gets you is a couple of token shots on enemy squads, its exactly these small things that separate player skill levels. Against anything bigger, you want to be able to lock the brace entirely against anything without ECM, and the ECM is only good for one of those two arcs on the big ships.

Ginkapo's comment that the double-arc makes the escape route harder is the most thought-provoking comment. I tried a variation of ASD last summer but I didn't stick with it long enough to really compare the flight plans and playability in both lists. And I suppose since I've had a Madine Admonition, the escape route has been much easier and I hadn't realized it. Still, if you get used to flying the list, you can figure out escape routes regardless.

1 minute ago, itzSteve said:

Lando, Admonition, and MM at close range for Evade reroll could have something to say about that...

I'm not sure what you're going with here. An MM/Lando/Admonition annoys virtually anything shooting at it, and it isn't like a Mothmantion is exactly the only thing an MC30 ever shoots at.

7 minutes ago, Vergilius said:

I'm not sure what you're going with here. An MM/Lando/Admonition annoys virtually anything shooting at it, and it isn't like a Mothmantion is exactly the only thing an MC30 ever shoots at.

Well, this discussion started out just talking about total damage from a double arc torpedo vs. a Acbar/enhanced armaments torpedo, but each subsequent post seems to add an additional element to the discussion. I was just at the point of not having much else to add to it...sorry...

20 minutes ago, itzSteve said:

Well, this discussion started out just talking about total damage from a double arc torpedo vs. a Acbar/enhanced armaments torpedo, but each subsequent post seems to add an additional element to the discussion. I was just at the point of not having much else to add to it...sorry...

No worries! I have trouble following the argument of threads sometimes. They can be like tracking wild animals through the brush.