17 hours ago, pt106 said:

P.S. A good way to enhance the value of ECM is to bring Hand of Justice into battle.

This is very true! ECM enhances a limited resource. Anything that can help with that limitation also helps ECM considerably.

4 hours ago, Ophion said:

Great contribution as always Shmitty,

I think the point that strongly favours ECM is that when playing well, you should only be exposed to one major attack at a time. In your articles example (where you burned down the ISD with an Ackar MC80, assault frigate, Ion Cannon, and 4 squadrons) - this is an untenable situation for any ship in Armada (or should be!!!).

So if the ISD was managing its exposure via speed control and navigation (and was an ISD2 not an ISD1 so it didn't have to commit so hard to get its main guns into range) then the 5 damage off the MC80 is quite manageable depending on activation order etc.

The other point I think you might touch on is activation numbers and order. Managing and minimising the fire the ISD takes is a lot easier if you have enough activations to avoid moving into range of that AF until its already had its go (including the squadrons hanging off it). Like everything else, this isn't the whole answer of course, but it can be a big help.

of course, I am mostly playing RBD on my ISD at present because its the bombers that are beating me.

Thanks!

The example is bad for that ISD, ECM or not. It got me thinking on what were some solid strategies to keeping it in the fight longer. That thought process really got me thinking on that mulch-tiered approach to ship defense. Speed Control + ECM would have been much better as you said.

RBD is better against bombers for sure. I've found when playing against bomber heavy fleets that I tend to queue up more Repair Commands.

I guess if there was a point to my blog post it would be that defense tokens are a limited resource. Having a defense plans/strategies/upgrades outside of your defense tokens is key to helping big ships survive.

What is your opinion of adding ECM to a Demolisher via Tau?

Does your opinion change if it's for the campaign, where losing the ship has long term consequences?

I think that a core caveat is that until the addition of Minister Tua, Imperials had only one ship capable of Defensive Retrofits at all and this really limited not only the viable options for Imperial players, but in turn really limited the useful upgrades for Rebel players based on what they could expect to face. Frankly, in the Wave 4 meta and earlier, it is correct to say that ECM was the only consistently viable Defensive Retrofit available.

Now that Tua is available, this has slightly broadened the category, though ECMs are still viable against heavy gunship lists. However, I think the real issue is that for large ships the mathematically efficient offensive option is still X17 Turbolasers. This had reduced the overall value of numerous other offensive and defensive upgrades.

As you say Shmitty, Defensive tokens are a valuable limited resource. But the value comes typically from the fact that it is absolute. You can remove exactly half the incoming damage, or ablate exactly X damage against shields, or remove the most powerful die result. When X17 Turbolasers reduce the viability of one of those choices without recourse, then the value of the others becomes drastically greater.

13 minutes ago, thecactusman17 said:

However, I think the real issue is that for large ships the mathematically efficient offensive option is still X17 Turbolasers.

Thats not really true, Spinal Armament is a strong contender for that slot.

12 minutes ago, thecactusman17 said:

As you say Shmitty, Defensive tokens are a valuable limited resource. But the value comes typically from the fact that it is absolute. You can remove exactly half the incoming damage, or ablate exactly X damage against shields, or remove the most powerful die result. When X17 Turbolasers reduce the viability of one of those choices without recourse, then the value of the others becomes drastically greater.

Very good points!

The absolute and reliable nature of defense tokens make them great. Their limited nature encourages diversifying to have options beyond them. Especially in light of each token having an effective counter that your opponent might field.

7 minutes ago, pt106 said:

Thats not really true, Spinal Armament is a strong contender for that slot.

Definetely agree. Cannot like hard enough. For your VSD's, ISD's, and your Liberty's XI7's are awesome no doubt, but they don't become the best option unless you are shooting at medium/close. At the Red band, that extra die from Spinal gives you more.

I have long believed X17's to be terrible. Its a poor mans accuracy.

11 minutes ago, shmitty said:

Very good points!

The absolute and reliable nature of defense tokens make them great. Their limited nature encourages diversifying to have options beyond them. Especially in light of each token having an effective counter that your opponent might field.

Imperials, aside from the Interdictor, don't have those options. That's a uniquely Rebel thing. And it's cool that they do, but you have to acknowledge that one of the reasons ECMs are so popular are because there really aren't alternatives for one entire faction.

7 minutes ago, Madaghmire said:

Definetely agree. Cannot like hard enough. For your VSD's, ISD's, and your Liberty's XI7's are awesome no doubt, but they don't become the best option unless you are shooting at medium/close. At the Red band, that extra die from Spinal gives you more.

Dual turbolaser turrets work as well as spinals if you only shoot from the front. How often are you in a position to be shooting both from the front AND the back?

1 minute ago, thecactusman17 said:

Imperials, aside from the Interdictor, don't have those options. That's a uniquely Rebel thing. And it's cool that they do, but you have to acknowledge that one of the reasons ECMs are so popular are because there really aren't alternatives for one entire faction.

How does that make any sense?

Defensive retrofits arent really an option for one entire faction either. The same faction that doesnt have options to diversify their defensives greatly.

(Apart from Motti, Targeting Scramblers, Konstantine, Repair Crews, Montferrat, Needa.....)

2 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

I have long believed X17's to be terrible. Its a poor mans accuracy.

How many ships don't have a redirect? How many have multiples? Shooting from red range with only 3 dice makes it hard to get through to the hull without X17's. Plus X17's on a Warlord mean you can flip that accuracy to a double hit.

1 minute ago, SoonerTed said:

Dual turbolaser turrets work as well as spinals if you only shoot from the front. How often are you in a position to be shooting both from the front AND the back?

With VSD's? A surprising amount actually. But that rear dice isn't the point, and while I'm happy to cede that DTT's are also a perfectly viable option, they have a lower ceiling in terms of upside.

Just now, SoonerTed said:

How many ships don't have a redirect? How many have multiples? Shooting from red range with only 3 dice makes it hard to get through to the hull without X17's. Plus X17's on a Warlord mean you can flip that accuracy to a double hit.

How many ships have more than 2 shields on their adjacent hull zone?

I can use rhetoric just as easily.

7 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

I have long believed X17's to be terrible. Its a poor mans accuracy.

I think some Ackbar Star Destroyers would disagree with that statement.

4 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

How many ships have more than 2 shields on their adjacent hull zone?

I can use rhetoric just as easily.

Why "more than 2"? Since X17 means you can only move one damage to an adjacent hull zone. Sometimes having 2 is enough, and it's wiser to drain the shields completely on one side than to take hull damage. The Imperial medium sized ships have at least 2 on 3 sides. As do the Assault Frigates.

8 minutes ago, SoonerTed said:

Dual turbolaser turrets work as well as spinals if you only shoot from the front. How often are you in a position to be shooting both from the front AND the back?

Care to elaborate? I don't think it's true especially if the ship has CF token stacked

(EDIT: or Leading shots/Vader)

1 minute ago, thecactusman17 said:

Imperials, aside from the Interdictor, don't have those options. That's a uniquely Rebel thing. And it's cool that they do, but you have to acknowledge that one of the reasons ECMs are so popular are because there really aren't alternatives for one entire faction.

Imperials have fewer chances to use Defensive Retrofits, but still have some solid defensive options for other upgrades slots.

Motti, Tagge, Montferrat, Needa, Tractor Beams, Engine techs for arc dodging, Targeting Scramblers, Projection Experts.

1 minute ago, SoonerTed said:

Why "more than 2"? Since X17 means you can only move one damage to an adjacent hull zone. Sometimes having 2 is enough, and it's wiser to drain the shields completely on one side than to take hull damage.

You are happy to pay 6pts for 1 dmg? Ok, up to you.

Yup, PT, but you wont catch me though....... (Well ok thats the royal we, THEY wont catch me)

Just now, pt106 said:

Care to elaborate? I don't think it's true especially if the ship has CF token stacked.

You are correct with the CF token stacked, that spinals would be superior to DTT.

But also DTT also allows you that extra die/take away a die on any side once per turn, so you aren't locked into forward-facing or rear facing. If one is only going to shoot from the front, and no CF token, DTT is quite close in effectiveness to Spinals, though.

1 minute ago, SoonerTed said:

You are correct with the CF token stacked, that spinals would be superior to DTT.

But also DTT also allows you that extra die/take away a die on any side once per turn, so you aren't locked into forward-facing or rear facing. If one is only going to shoot from the front, and no CF token, DTT is quite close in effectiveness to Spinals, though.

Two words: Gunnery Team.

14 minutes ago, SoonerTed said:

Dual turbolaser turrets work as well as spinals if you only shoot from the front. How often are you in a position to be shooting both from the front AND the back?

7 minutes ago, pt106 said:

Care to elaborate? I don't think it's true especially if the ship has CF token stacked.

I can see his point. Either way you are throwing 4 red dice, probably at least one comes up blank. And so you save 4 points.

The difference of course is that with spinals, if you roll four faces that aren't blank, you get to count them all.

And of course thats before we get into whether you are running Vader/veteran gunners/leading shots/gunnery teams

IMO both are viable, although on the big boys I personally tend to go spinals or xi7's, depending on what else I have going on in my list

2 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

You are happy to pay 6pts for 1 dmg? Ok, up to you.

Yup, PT, but you wont catch me though....... (Well ok thats the royal we, THEY wont catch me)

I think DTT is a superior choice to X17s now, at least until Advanced Projectors makes a comeback.

Add dice (spinals, EA, etc) - higher ceiling/lower floor - generally expensive

Modify Dice (DTT, TRC, Leading Shots) - Smoother damage curve

Counter Defenses (XI7, HTT, Intel Officer) - Gets the damage through more consistently, best with single, large attacks

All are viable strategies, pick what works for you.