The Corellian Conflict had me thinking about the best ways to keep expensive ships alive. ECM is the go to for many people, but the more I thought on it the less it seemed like the answer.
I wrote a really long blog post on how to keep large base ships alive in your Armada games. Check it out HERE.
TL:DR - Defense Tokens are a very limited resource and your survival strategy should be based on other sources of protection.
I wouldn't say that ECM is highly overrated, but it is overrated. Essentially ECM is a go to upgrade against large dice pools (ISD/MC80/Ackbar) and is almost useless vs multiple attacks. So the choice to get ECM or not is context dependent: what fleets/ships are the greatest threat to your fleet? Given that in Corellian campaigh fleet matchups can be somewhat managed, i can see fleets designed for combat vs large ships (and therefore ECM-equipped) and fleets designed to kill the carriers/fight swarms and therefore opting for RBD/AP/nothing.
I'm trying different upgrades and am finding that there is no one answer. ECM's are still good but they are limited. Redundant Shields seems to work well on a large ship like the MC80 and Repair Crews on a GR75 has been amazing, but my AF Mark II had been rocking the ECM to no end but I just don't see the ECM that effective on the MC80 now, and my CR90 is going with Advanced Projectors. So far this combo has gotten me to 500 points in my Campaign and I haven't lost my larger ships yet. (Knock on wood.)
ECM's are still good but they can not be looked at in a vacuum. What ships are you thinking about? What other support ships or upgrades are you packing? I need more info to go further here.
PT's got it right. Brace is essential when facing large attack pools being fired at you, but since (at least in my area) those things are on the decline in favor of massed fighter-bombers, it's nice to start looking elsewhere for good defensive tokens, especially things that help against multiple small attacks. The best one is Advanced Projectors.
Also, the best sources of mass damage are also usually lacking the ability to grab accuracy easily, like GSDs and RDRs.
Correct, ECMs are good for ships that will be facing big pools of quality (modified) attack dice. Those are the attacks that are most valuable to Brace against and also the attacks most likely to have an Accuracy to lock your Brace token. You really want Braces against ISDs, medium-range VSDs, Liberties, and Ackbar Assault Frigates and MC80s.
But in a match-up against smaller attacks, that Brace is less valuable. The size of incoming attack pools is lower, so the total effect of the Brace is smaller and the likelihood of attacks with high damage and spare accuracy results is reduced. In these situations, other defensive upgrades can be better than ECM.
CC doesn't really alter this calculation any, though at least in Round 1 when facing ships with only one upgrade you're less likely to face off against a High Quality attack (e.g. that ISD won't have Leading Shots and Gunnery Team and X17...it'll probably just have Gunnery Team). ECM is still nice against an ISD with just Gunnery Team, but ECM is worth it's weight in gold once that ISD also has Leading Shots and X17/H9 turbolasers. Even so, once Round 2 comes around large ships will be sporting all their toys, which is no different than a standard non-CC game.
21 minutes ago, pt106 said:I wouldn't say that ECM is highly overrated, but it is overrated. Essentially ECM is a go to upgrade against large dice pools (ISD/MC80/Ackbar) and is almost useless vs multiple attacks. So the choice to get ECM or not is context dependent: what fleets/ships are the greatest threat to your fleet? Given that in Corellian campaigh fleet matchups can be somewhat managed, i can see fleets designed for combat vs large ships (and therefore ECM-equipped) and fleets designed to kill the carriers/fight swarms and therefore opting for RBD/AP/nothing.
Yeah, the ability to plan matchups is one of the more intriguing aspects of the campaigns.
21 minutes ago, Beatty said:What ships are you thinking about? What other support ships or upgrades are you packing? I need more info to go further here.
The blog post really focuses on large ships in specific. Basically I am moving away from either ECM or AP. Both enhance defense tokens, which are a limited resource. In the post I explore defensive options that can be stacked with your defense tokens or used along side of them.
For a large ship I would prioritize defense this way:
Worth bearing in mind that ECMs lose their lustre big time if a big ship opts for Heavy Turbolaser Turrets instead of XI7s!
More people should go for HTTs.
I like ECM on my AFs but that's it. I've played so many games with Vics I learned how to play without a Brace and just accept the additional damage.
17 minutes ago, shmitty said:For a large ship I would prioritize defense this way:
- Reduce the number of incoming attacks
- Reduce the number of incoming attack dice
- Maintain maximum hull/shields
- Optimize your defense tokens
- Manage incoming critical damage
Cool. Remind me to bring sensor teams against you. I only need a single attack
20 minutes ago, shmitty said:For a large ship I would prioritize defense this way:
- Reduce the number of incoming attacks
- Reduce the number of incoming attack dice
- Maintain maximum hull/shields
- Optimize your defense tokens
- Manage incoming critical damage
I would state it differently
Keep in mind that ideally by the end of combat you want you large ship to be significantly damaged (as it means that all that damage didn't go elsewhere) but alive.
P.S. A good way to enhance the value of ECM is to bring Hand of Justice into battle.
Edited by pt106ECMs are better for ships with brace, and RBD are better for ships without. It's a rather simple flow chart.
I don't know if it belongs here but if we're talking Campaign Defense Strategies I have been running a GR75 with Leia and Repair Crews that runs just behind my main ships. It gives me huge flexibility along with the ability to remove a critical effect before I activate my ship. I can't imagine running a MC80 without it now.
Edited by BeattyThe good old MC80 Assault Cruiser can take advantage of both ECM and RBD's as well as DCO's. When used in that combination I prefer the ECM > Redundant Shields or Advanced Projectors.
There is serious merit now though for ECM's being less useful vs the typical 4-5 ship activation lists and bomber swarms where AP's really shine.
4 minutes ago, Englishpete said:The good old MC80 Assault Cruiser can take advantage of both ECM and RBD's as well as DCO's. When used in that combination I prefer the ECM > Redundant Shields or Advanced Projectors.
There is serious merit now though for ECM's being less useful vs the typical 4-5 ship activation lists and bomber swarms where AP's really shine.
Why not AP over RBD? You can prevent more damage (4 instead of 3) and you can repair 2 shields compared to 1 hull. Unless you go against a lot of XI7...
3 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:Why not AP over RBD? You can prevent more damage (4 instead of 3) and you can repair 2 shields compared to 1 hull. Unless you go against a lot of XI7...
Mostly because I can redirect to a location anyway, then repair two shields, then, if the shields finally collapse, I can instantly fix 3 damage.
9 minutes ago, Englishpete said:Mostly because I can redirect to a location anyway, then repair two shields, then, if the shields finally collapse, I can instantly fix 3 damage.
Fair enough.
Thanks for making a point that I've suggested several times on the forums and which I think many top players intuitively know. There's been almost a knee jerk default to ECM in the broader community for a very long time.
There are a couple of key points that I think need added to the discussion:
1. The math on ECM saving the brace may not be as beneficial as it lets on. For example, let's say you can free the brace on a big shot. What the ECM saves you is the difference between that very large shot and the amount of damage on the next incoming shot. If you halve 8 to 4, but could have halved 4 to 2 anyway without the ECM, then you're overall value is 2. That's actually pretty good in my opinion, especially you do it again the next turn and that 4 saved damage prevents your large ship from dying. But we're now in an environment where you can shave off 3 damage cards immediately with RBD for a couple point savings, which means you really need the cost differential of ECM to exceed 4 to get the most out of it. AP seems likely simpler math, because the cost is the opportunity cost of one engineering command plus the ability to regenerate those shields with the command instead of moving them, or about 2 points, plus some difficult to quantity bonus for being able to take all of the damage on your shields before you start taking hull. Redundant Shields is a flat one shield per turn, which means you need to regenerate at least three shields to make it point efficient vis-a-vis AP. There's a slight benefit for that being shields versus hull vis-a-vis RBD and a slight difficulty in the timing (maybe RBD doesn't fire), but RBD really makes RS a tough sell right now.
2. ECM frees up more than just the brace, and on certain ships that is extremely beneficial. For example, the one ship that absolutely shines with ECM is the Assault Frigate, and that's because any given attack may require a different token from the brace. Suppose you've got a double hit and accuracy from your opponent at red range, suddenly freeing your evade to cancel that double is much more meaningful. Then, sometimes freeing up the redirect is exactly what you need to keep the Assault Frigate alive.
PT, I think, expresses the crux of the matter really well, in that the basic question is when you have enough defense, because you really don't want any more than you have to.
AP and ECM are limited by the tokens you already have. RBD and others like Lando give you options in addition to your defense tokens.
Less vulnerable to swarms
2 minutes ago, Vergilius said:Thanks for making a point that I've suggested several times on the forums and which I think many top players intuitively know. There's been almost a knee jerk default to ECM in the broader community for a very long time.
There are a couple of key points that I think need added to the discussion:
1. The math on ECM saving the brace may not be as beneficial as it lets on. For example, let's say you can free the brace on a big shot. What the ECM saves you is the difference between that very large shot and the amount of damage on the next incoming shot. If you halve 8 to 4, but could have halved 4 to 2 anyway without the ECM, then you're overall value is 2. That's actually pretty good in my opinion, especially you do it again the next turn and that 4 saved damage prevents your large ship from dying. But we're now in an environment where you can shave off 3 damage cards immediately with RBD for a couple point savings, which means you really need the cost differential of ECM to exceed 4 to get the most out of it. AP seems likely simpler math, because the cost is the opportunity cost of one engineering command plus the ability to regenerate those shields with the command instead of moving them, or about 2 points, plus some difficult to quantity bonus for being able to take all of the damage on your shields before you start taking hull. Redundant Shields is a flat one shield per turn, which means you need to regenerate at least three shields to make it point efficient vis-a-vis AP. There's a slight benefit for that being shields versus hull vis-a-vis RBD and a slight difficulty in the timing (maybe RBD doesn't fire), but RBD really makes RS a tough sell right now.
2. ECM frees up more than just the brace, and on certain ships that is extremely beneficial. For example, the one ship that absolutely shines with ECM is the Assault Frigate, and that's because any given attack may require a different token from the brace. Suppose you've got a double hit and accuracy from your opponent at red range, suddenly freeing your evade to cancel that double is much more meaningful. Then, sometimes freeing up the redirect is exactly what you need to keep the Assault Frigate alive.
PT, I think, expresses the crux of the matter really well, in that the basic question is when you have enough defense, because you really don't want any more than you have to.
Can you explain your first point again? What do you mean " If you halve 8 to 4, but could have halved 4 to 2 anyway without the ECM, then you're overall value is 2."? Are you saying to break the brace?
I'd also like to tack on that AP is much stronger than ECM against bomber fleets. The ships that want AP are MC30s, MC80s, and ISDs because they have the dual redirects that can bounce a lot of damage and you don't have to worry about breaking one.
24 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:Can you explain your first point again? What do you mean " If you halve 8 to 4, but could have halved 4 to 2 anyway without the ECM, then you're overall value is 2."? Are you saying to break the brace?
I'd also like to tack on that AP is much stronger than ECM against bomber fleets. The ships that want AP are MC30s, MC80s, and ISDs because they have the dual redirects that can bounce a lot of damage and you don't have to worry about breaking one.
I'll see what I can do on the first point.
Situation 1: You have ECM. Your opponent can make two or more shots against you. One of them can do 8 damage, the other can do 4. The primary justification for taking ECM, as best as I can understand the arguments, is to be able to halve that really big shot. In this case, it doesn't matter if he has an accuracy or not, you can brace and take 4 damage. You opponent then takes a second shot against you and does 4 more damage. Total damage: 8
Situation 2: You don't have ECM. The same situation happens above, but your opponent locks out your brace. You take 8 damage from that shot, then another 2 from his braceable second attack. Total damage: 10
Now contrast situation 1 and 2: The actual savings of ECM is 2 points of damage. The larger point is lay out points for comparison. From there, we can start changing up the situation and see in which situations ECM produces the biggest benefit. What if your opponent runs a list with tons of accuracies and you don't brace anything. What if your opponent runs a list that is almost entirely 3 points of damage or less. The larger point is that Defensive Retrofits are almost entirely anti-meta upgrades, with each of them being useful in some situations and not so much in others. The meta question is which one is going to be singularly most useful.
Great contribution as always Shmitty,
I think the point that strongly favours ECM is that when playing well, you should only be exposed to one major attack at a time. In your articles example (where you burned down the ISD with an Ackar MC80, assault frigate, Ion Cannon, and 4 squadrons) - this is an untenable situation for any ship in Armada (or should be!!!).
So if the ISD was managing its exposure via speed control and navigation (and was an ISD2 not an ISD1 so it didn't have to commit so hard to get its main guns into range) then the 5 damage off the MC80 is quite manageable depending on activation order etc.
The other point I think you might touch on is activation numbers and order. Managing and minimising the fire the ISD takes is a lot easier if you have enough activations to avoid moving into range of that AF until its already had its go (including the squadrons hanging off it). Like everything else, this isn't the whole answer of course, but it can be a big help.
of course, I am mostly playing RBD on my ISD at present because its the bombers that are beating me.
Ah ha!
The other idea I had.
Tua and ECM closes the gap in capability for the Victory class massively. The major vulnerability for the VSD compared to the ISD is that the VSD can be readily burned down in two shots by a properly outfitted large ship, or even a H9 Admo. ECM changes that equation to making the VSD sort of almost as tough as the ISD.
EG: VSD no ECM takes 8 damage with 1 acc and Xi7s - 1st volley no brace, redirect 1, 4 on shields, 4 on hull (usually with a crit). 2nd volley - very dead VSD.
VSD with ECM takes 8 damage with 1 acc and Xi7s - 1st volley brace, redirect1, 4 on shields, no hull damage. 2nd volley - 8 damage with 1 acc and Xi7s, again brace, redirect 1, take 3 damage on hull. VSD still on 5 hull and hopefully engineering and hitting back.
I think its about the whole build.
an assault frigate NEEDS the brace to survive. ECM all the way.
an MC80? depends. I'd say use Redundant shields for a simple reason: it is *so easy* for this ship to keep one sidearc pointed at the big target and just use that side's shields as hull, since its sides are huge. it is so difficult to target another arc if played correctly.
an ISD? i think Reinforced Blast doors. and Motti. that means the ship has 17 effective hull, that is so difficult to chew through, Brace or not.
in general, the larger the ship, the more focus it needs to be brought down regardless of Brace-that means it is best utilised with non-ECM upgrades. i'd say a bombers force or TRC spam is a far bigger threat to an ISD than another big ship, for example.
14 hours ago, pt106 said:I wouldn't say that ECM is highly overrated, but it is overrated. Essentially ECM is a go to upgrade against large dice pools (ISD/MC80/Ackbar) and is almost useless vs multiple attacks. So the choice to get ECM or not is context dependent: what fleets/ships are the greatest threat to your fleet? Given that in Corellian campaigh fleet matchups can be somewhat managed, i can see fleets designed for combat vs large ships (and therefore ECM-equipped) and fleets designed to kill the carriers/fight swarms and therefore opting for RBD/AP/nothing.
Very much this.
In my last game I could really have used RBD on Demo, faced with the Ion Cannon (base defense) and rebel bombers.
But if I ever get matched vs Bigg's Ackbar H1 fleet, I'm going to get a lot of love from my ECM.
So there is not one definitive answer here.