So one of my players is taking shadow and force sensitive emergent, he has to take sleight of mind twice, is it a flat 1 boost or does it increase the amount of boost die gained? It kinda sucks as the former, especially if he has to take it again and waste xp on it.

It's a Ranked Talent. It gets better the more ranks of it you buy.

If you check the Talents chapter of the Core Books it'll tell you if a given Talent is ranked or not as well as telling you the entirety of the Talent's rules. Sometimes the Spec tree short form doesn't explain everything neatly.

23 hours ago, Zakain said:

It kinda sucks as the former, especially if he has to take it again and waste xp on it.

Quick clarification: if a talent is non-ranked, then you don't buy multiple copies of it. If you already have bought such a talent, you can just skip over it when you encounter it in another talent tree, treating it as if you've purchased that copy for the purposes of advancing through the tree.

Its a gimpy version of a Bounty Hunter Talent, each rank gives a single boost to Stealth.

It should give a boost to stealth and deception checks to place it on even footing with the ranked boost to stealth and coordination checks talent Bounty Hunters get.

3 minutes ago, Decorus said:

Its a gimpy version of a Bounty Hunter Talent, each rank gives a single boost to Stealth.

It should give a boost to stealth and deception checks to place it on even footing with the ranked boost to stealth and coordination checks talent Bounty Hunters get.

Not all talent are created equal, nor need they be. I don't think Force sensitive PCs need any more of a leg up

Actually they do. Non Force Sensitive PCs will always have higher stats, higher skills and way more talents and trees.

Force Sensitive Pcs are massive xp sinks that will never be as good as a Regular PC in the system.

Dude we should have a build-off + PbP combat arena! And also maybe a social encounter PvP type thing as well.

Sure starting character vrs starting character with starting creds.

1 hour ago, Decorus said:

Actually they do. Non Force Sensitive PCs will always have higher stats, higher skills and way more talents and trees.

Force Sensitive Pcs are massive xp sinks that will never be as good as a Regular PC in the system.

Yes force sensitive PC's will tend to have lower stats, less progression in class trees and less skill ranks but they gain supernatural abilities completely inaccessible to non-force sensatives as a trade off, many of which often allow them to circumvent other skills. That doesn't make them worse, but more often better.

Take a non-sensitive using charm or intimidate vs a force sensitive using influence and tell me who is more prone to not only succeed but at greater lengths.

8 minutes ago, Decorus said:

Sure starting character vrs starting character with starting creds.

Nah, at least Knight Level. Give it some time to develop the character concept.

6 minutes ago, Dark Bunny Lord said:

Take a non-sensitive using charm or intimidate vs a force sensitive using influence and tell me who is more prone to not only succeed but at greater lengths.

It is a bit like comparing groundapples & rinzefruits...

Unless of course you pit them against each other in a gladiatorial arena

There are simply too many variables to say that Force users are always weaker than non-Force users. Is that in combat? Socially? Tech? Piloting? Animal handling? The same could be said for races, gear, weapons and vehicles. It's an unnecessary arms race to beat the system at its own game when there's no need to do so. The game is nearly flawless and does a balanced Star Wars extremely well.

4 hours ago, Dark Bunny Lord said:

Yes force sensitive PC's will tend to have lower stats, less progression in class trees and less skill ranks but they gain supernatural abilities completely inaccessible to non-force sensatives as a trade off, many of which often allow them to circumvent other skills. That doesn't make them worse, but more often better.

Take a non-sensitive using charm or intimidate vs a force sensitive using influence and tell me who is more prone to not only succeed but at greater lengths.

Well considering that a force sensitive using influence needs oh around 200+ xp invested to actually be better kinda maybe?

See Influence needs xp to work. A bit in the tree, but then it needs Force dice to really work.

If you go Sage you will spend 190 on talents for 3 force dice and another 35 on influence for the bare bones needed to function.

You will have 1 killing with kindness 1 smooth talker and Natural Negotiator.

You will have all of 2 in charm and negotiate maybe 1 in deception or coercion.

Then you have maybe a 4 presence with 2 skill and 3 force pips.

Now lets go Charmer.

Charmer at 140 xp will have 2 congenials that can down grade charm and negoitiation checks a 5 possibly 6 presence a killing with kindness 1 smooth talker and Just Kidding..

Oh and you still have 85 xp to go start working on Gambler which will eventually net you even more rerolls or you could straight up max out charm or negotiation.

Sure you can add successes or advantage possibly by picking up conflict, but the Charmer can down grade the difficulty and ignore threat.

See influence really does not make up for the lack of an actual face tree in Force and destiny.

By the time you finally get to the coveted 6 force rating he's going to have completely finished Gambler and Unmatched fortune.

While your rolling 6 force dice for possible additional successes and advantages he's going to be down grading checks altering the dice rolls rerolling bad dice and doubling all of his successes advantages and triumps.

So does your influence using Jedi ever get better at facing compared to a Lando character? probably not, because you have mystical force and he has unmatched fortune and really crazy luck.

Since we're already wildly off topic, I'm fine with the disparity between Force users and Muggles. And I'm the kind of player that tends to exclusively play Force users.

Second, comparing a maxed out Gambler to anything is a rough sell. The higher-end talents in that tree make any character more than proficient in an otherwise difficult task.

15 hours ago, Decorus said:

Well considering that a force sensitive using influence needs oh around 200+ xp invested to actually be better kinda maybe?

See Influence needs xp to work. A bit in the tree, but then it needs Force dice to really work.

If you go Sage you will spend 190 on talents for 3 force dice and another 35 on influence for the bare bones needed to function.

You will have 1 killing with kindness 1 smooth talker and Natural Negotiator.

You will have all of 2 in charm and negotiate maybe 1 in deception or coercion.

Then you have maybe a 4 presence with 2 skill and 3 force pips.

Now lets go Charmer.

Charmer at 140 xp will have 2 congenials that can down grade charm and negoitiation checks a 5 possibly 6 presence a killing with kindness 1 smooth talker and Just Kidding..

Oh and you still have 85 xp to go start working on Gambler which will eventually net you even more rerolls or you could straight up max out charm or negotiation.

Sure you can add successes or advantage possibly by picking up conflict, but the Charmer can down grade the difficulty and ignore threat.

See influence really does not make up for the lack of an actual face tree in Force and destiny.

By the time you finally get to the coveted 6 force rating he's going to have completely finished Gambler and Unmatched fortune.

While your rolling 6 force dice for possible additional successes and advantages he's going to be down grading checks altering the dice rolls rerolling bad dice and doubling all of his successes advantages and triumps.

So does your influence using Jedi ever get better at facing compared to a Lando character? probably not, because you have mystical force and he has unmatched fortune and really crazy luck.

Again you're overlooking the bounds of what these two things can do. It doesn't matter how charming you are, you aren't going to get a guy to step out of his ATST with charm, influence on the other hand you can do just that. Similarly you're not going to convince someone you just stabbed to buy you a drink with charm, influence again could though. Influence costs more exp sure but it's more powerful by leaps and bounds because unlike social skills (of which it covers nearly all) you're not bound by conventional logic with it.

The same is applicable for other force powers, a player will never lift a ship with brawn but force move can do it rather easily, no amount of observation entering a club that doesn't allows weapons will discover the harm power, etc. You're basically complaining that abilities that have far greater limits than mere skills are more expensive when they have be to not make non-force users irrelevant. Also yes they need force rating to function but one force rating increases the effectiveness of every power.

16 hours ago, Decorus said:

Well considering that a force sensitive using influence needs oh around 200+ xp invested to actually be better kinda maybe?

See Influence needs xp to work. A bit in the tree, but then it needs Force dice to really work.

If you go Sage you will spend 190 on talents for 3 force dice and another 35 on influence for the bare bones needed to function.

You will have 1 killing with kindness 1 smooth talker and Natural Negotiator.

You will have all of 2 in charm and negotiate maybe 1 in deception or coercion.

Then you have maybe a 4 presence with 2 skill and 3 force pips.

Now lets go Charmer.

Charmer at 140 xp will have 2 congenials that can down grade charm and negoitiation checks a 5 possibly 6 presence a killing with kindness 1 smooth talker and Just Kidding..

Oh and you still have 85 xp to go start working on Gambler which will eventually net you even more rerolls or you could straight up max out charm or negotiation.

Sure you can add successes or advantage possibly by picking up conflict, but the Charmer can down grade the difficulty and ignore threat.

See influence really does not make up for the lack of an actual face tree in Force and destiny.

By the time you finally get to the coveted 6 force rating he's going to have completely finished Gambler and Unmatched fortune.

While your rolling 6 force dice for possible additional successes and advantages he's going to be down grading checks altering the dice rolls rerolling bad dice and doubling all of his successes advantages and triumps.

So does your influence using Jedi ever get better at facing compared to a Lando character? probably not, because you have mystical force and he has unmatched fortune and really crazy luck.

Didn't we just have a recent 20+ page thread (that might actually still be going) about how overpowered Force Users can become in this game versus non-Force users? And now there is a (off topic) thread suggesting.... the opposite?

Well the person who is claiming they are over powered doesn't really understand things like xp costs or talent synergy.

When you have less starting skills, poorly built weaker talents and entire specializations that don't do what they are supposed to you kinda are a bit under powered thats not saying the splat books are umm a bit on the overpowered side for the most part. He's complaining about move without ever seeing a ridiculous damage breaching blast that just annihilates things.

I think Force users are often considered overpowered due to the demands of the fiction, to quote PbtA games. An enemy wielding a blaster, even fully modded, isn't something your rough n' tumble glactic citizen can't process a defense against. You can dive for cover, wear armor, shoot first, run away, talk them down and so forth. Swords, blasters, fists, knives and grenades (to name only a few ways to harm) may be deadly, but they're common (at least conceptually). A silver-tongued noble can sway you with words but you can make an informed defense ("Hmmm. This man is dangerously charming...") and steel your will. You expect the noble to be manipulative. A diminutive human won't be much of a physical threat; they're small, possibly weak and you can see that at the outset. The list goes on.

With the Force, almost all bets are off. That diminutive human is suddenly lifting you in the air with the wave of a hand. The noble doesn't just convince you, they control your mind. All the armor in the world doesn't help you against him and an iron will isn't often at the ready for such abilities. The pilot you're up against is pulling maneuvers you didn't believe possible. Your bounty just lept three stories. The hunters hired to capture you are never far behind. The card sharp seems to anticipate your next move. Again, the list goes on.

Force users have a definite edge in the logic of the fiction. This is how it should be. The ability to call upon the Force is rare and the majority of the galaxy shouldn't be prepared for it's use, so when most people encounter it, they have little to no defense.

My two creds, of course, but it helped me create encounters based on the acceptance of this fictional demand.