So I'm theoretically loving an area of effect Dutch Vander... my problem is keeping the sucker alive! What do you do vs Norra? Or do you only fly in after the furball's started?

I've only had one time this thing worked really well and that was imp aces v. imp aces (no intel since it was a Mauler-protector ball: the F-torps prevented the combo from going off till he was dead)

my buddy gives his opponent a choice: shoot obstructed (he places a flotilla inbetween) or kill his gozanti. his imp and demo are close too. it makes for a tough choice.

If you want to see a Raider1 with FT work to perfection, just watch my World Cup match against JJ's Juggernaut. He was able to deactivate half of my Rieekan aces list for two turns as he flew through waving at all the squads not being able to return fire. It was brutal...

The Raider1 upgrades were: Agent Kallus, Ordinance Experts, Flechette Torpedos, Impetuous

52 minutes ago, DUR said:

So I'm theoretically loving an area of effect Dutch Vander... my problem is keeping the sucker alive! What do you do vs Norra? Or do you only fly in after the furball's started?

I've only had one time this thing worked really well and that was imp aces v. imp aces (no intel since it was a Mauler-protector ball: the F-torps prevented the combo from going off till he was dead)

First player really, really helps. Hold off on moving the raider in until the last possible moment. If they are saving squads to go until the squadron phase, then it can be harder to get in position, and if they have rogues in larger numbers they could just kill the raider outright. Therefore it tends to work best to join the fight after your squadrons have at least tied up some of your opponents squadrons. You don't want to be to late, our your smaller fighter screen might get shredded, but to soon is asking for a dead raider. The other alternative is to bring 2 flechette raiders. If one dies, but it means you shut down the majority of your opponent's squadrons it could be worth the trade.

I hold it in reserve for my last activation of the turn. I keep it behind my main ship line, so it's almost never a target before I commit it to the fight. Unless it's facing a Yavaris B-Wing double tap, it can weather a bomber activation if I don't have first player. The trick is having the patience to hold it back. I've had more than one occasion where I've gone against my own rule because I felt like I needed it in there faster, only to lose it quickly.

I will be testing a flechette raider pocket carrier that aims to nuke Intel with a squadron activation of the Empires most surgical aces before moving into position for the following turn without being shot at. I'll let you know how it goes when I finally get some time to play...

8 hours ago, JJs Juggernaut said:

The other alternative is to bring 2 flechette raiders. If one dies, but it means you shut down the majority of your opponent's squadrons it could be worth the trade.

I... kind of don't like this answer. It implies you're trading 47 points to lock down enemy fighters for a single turn, knowing you'll be likely sacrificing a Raider on the hope that it won't die instantly to start stunning fighters. Unless that second raider can lock down every bomber that may kill it, I don't have high expectations for any ship existing for long under stacked BCCs, which is what I've come to expect from the fighters I've been trying to stun.

Plus, you don't need rogue to destroy Raiders that are diving into your squadron ball. You just choose not to activate those fighters, so they go in the squadron phase, where BCC and Toryn still trigger since they don't depend on any activations. Two B-Wing attacks rolling perfectly into the same arc with Norra present will destroy a Raider.

Every time I've tried Raiders against massed squadrons they die pathetically easy. That's been my experience, I keep them still as screed's APT minions, but the squadron damage output has been disappointing. To kill fighters, I think other fighters is the best way to go.

Two words: FIRST PLAYER!

Motti/Tua/RBD

1 hour ago, Green Knight said:

Two words: FIRST PLAYER!

I have two as well: more ships.

On nationals my opponent thought the raider is a perfect counter to my squadrons. To bad i had more ships and could activate my squadrons after he moved his raider into my bombers. Took only 5 Tie Bomber to take out the Raider.

The raider is so damm fragile. You need a good tactic for it. It is not an easy self running counter.

And as more points you put into it (to counter squadrons) as more dangerous it will be. Eighter because your opponent can gain more from killing it or from having a worthless ship, when the opponent does not has any squadrons.

Yeah as others have said he has to come in at the right time. Keep the speed down until you know you want to commit!

Even a TRC corvette and a couple of YT2400s usually can reliably kill mine. Bring him in behind the squadron ball.

Does pairing Morna Kee with an Instigator FR work? Or is it just too expensive?

I have used it to great effect...first player definitely helps...but if you are second player then when it makes its pass make sure you are keeping nav token and nav command cause afterwards it will be likely limping away...and will need to get somewhere else quickly. It needs to be combined with a few fighters at least to prevent it from being targeted during the sqn phase. I have found that you are really just going to try to activate as many as possible then run away maybe inflicting a damage each...then let your sqns finish off everything. I combine it with the timing so that my ISD2 AA fire can also contribute. That one turn of your opponents sqns just sitting there (and it usually is only one turn) can make a huge difference in the survival of your squads...wasting your opponents command dials...and really puts off your opponent. Then I usually send my raider on its way to hunt flotillas...although with the maneuverability of the raider it can make the turn around and come back for a late game pass but by then it is usually isn't as much of a factor and I would rather not risk the 50+ points.

12 hours ago, Norsehound said:

I... kind of don't like this answer. It implies you're trading 47 points to lock down enemy fighters for a single turn, knowing you'll be likely sacrificing a Raider on the hope that it won't die instantly to start stunning fighters. Unless that second raider can lock down every bomber that may kill it, I don't have high expectations for any ship existing for long under stacked BCCs, which is what I've come to expect from the fighters I've been trying to stun.

Plus, you don't need rogue to destroy Raiders that are diving into your squadron ball. You just choose not to activate those fighters, so they go in the squadron phase, where BCC and Toryn still trigger since they don't depend on any activations. Two B-Wing attacks rolling perfectly into the same arc with Norra present will destroy a Raider.

Every time I've tried Raiders against massed squadrons they die pathetically easy. That's been my experience, I keep them still as screed's APT minions, but the squadron damage output has been disappointing. To kill fighters, I think other fighters is the best way to go.

I did cover the majority of this by pointing out that you need to time the engagement very carefully. Rogues make it easy, but I said even unactivated squadrons can be an issue. Also, when my flechette raider gets into the fight it does more then shut down fighter for a single turn. Usually I can shut down the ball for several, and I'm doing damage with the raider and my squadrons as well. Personally I'm not a fan of using the Flechette raiders without squadron support, even if I bring a pair of them. Also, I'll note your math is off for the two B-wings, even with Norra. Since the raider will brace and Norra's ability only triggers on the first attack since the shields are already gone on the second. Obviously though with 2 crits a structural could easily finish it off. I'm not denying in any way how fragile raiders are to bombers/squadrons in general, which is why it can be hard to use them effectively. However, it is worth the risk for the payout IMO, since the raider can absolutely dismantle a squadron force.

Offer more targets.

If you give your opponent a tough decision (take out the nasty anti squadron ship or take out the nasty big ship thats going to murder his face if he doesnt deal with it quick) then even if the raider goes down, youre still in the green.

You cant just field a ship randomly and expect it to work. You gotta fly it right and offer distractions.

Let's presume 3x BCCs and Toryn can assure a lot of control over dice, allowing a B-Wing to roll hit-crit on black and acc or another hit on blue. Norra's right next to them. RDR shields are 2 each facing. Intel is in the area to guarantee all of the following fighter attacks.

First hit is 3 damage. RDR uses brace. -1 shield for Norra out of the critical, one to reduce the last shield, one standard hit to the hull. Second B-Wing hit delivers three damage with critical, which you can brace. Assuming structural damage isn't in there (or Dodonna isn't the commander to guarantee it) You're down to one hull, until either the next fighter attacks or Yavaris shoots you. If you used your brace tokens to deflect the bomber attacks, now you only have one evade between you and being destroyed.

The second B-Wing opens fire to wipe your Raider off the map, then turn and attack one of the squadrons trying to stop it with a re-roll from Toryn (or two re-rolls if Dagger squadron is doing the attack).

All of this of course after Yavaris moves and positions those B-Wings in optimal spaces to wipe the Raider then attack your screen.

Either way, stacked BCCs are brutal. You'll know if you've ever faced it with a good player running it. And between facing a fighter cloud or knocking 47 points of unused equipment off the table, I'd rather take the easy points. Thanks for the ship.

Personally if i were first player i'd rather just use Demolisher to trash Yavaris then bugger off. Don't give away 50 pts that way and bombers aren't nearly as damaging when they don't get to double tap.

I played Kallus, OE, FT and Instigator (as I didn't want to let them escape) during the regional. It was my first time but it did really well. Go first is a must unless your oponent had really bad choices. Having activations advantage also help as your oponent will eventually activate his squadrons, then go in!

For me it worked well as I had both (initiative and activations) in all my matches. If you don't have activations try engaging with your squadrons during the ship phase. Obstruction could work too.

I agree with MaxTeranus after my game tonight (against an Ackbar list with simple a-wing defense for squads) . Demo adapts to far more scenarios than the dead in the space floating 50+ pts. on a bomber-less match up.

So basically, are we saying that Raiders are still popping?

Also, yes an answer is first player and 6ships.

You don't keep raiders alive, you keep them at home.