When all the damage counters are gone from backup muscle are you allowed to discard it from play?

No. The card doesn't indicate that you discard it, so you don't.

It just kinda sits there, reminding you of the good times.

From what I understand it stays in play, just essentially void of use. It does not state discard. I think the going reason why is because if it did, you could cycle it back into play.

It also leaves some game space for future design elements, such as adding counters to cards in play.

... Or, you know, them deciding to go the other way in a later update.

Remember, we're often play-testers for FFG rule sets

I'm sure future releases will do something with it.

Can you activate it when there are no counters on it (to basically delay taking an action now and still take one later in the round)?

24 minutes ago, anthonybarnstable said:

Can you activate it when there are no counters on it (to basically delay taking an action now and still take one later in the round)?

No. I mean, kinda.

You're allowed to do that, but it's the same as passing your turn. New FFG rules were just updated to reflect that.

16 minutes ago, CBMarkham said:

No. I mean, kinda.

You're allowed to do that, but it's the same as passing your turn. New FFG rules were just updated to reflect that.

It is actually better than passing. If you simply pass then they could pass and end the round. You absolutely use this (instead of passing) to force them into an action. It's a nice delay tactic if you are playing something like Jango / Veers

3 minutes ago, pstalker said:

It is actually better than passing. If you simply pass then they could pass and end the round. You absolutely use this (instead of passing) to force them into an action. It's a nice delay tactic if you are playing something like Jango / Veers

I think you missed the part about the rules update. It's not better than passing, it is passing. The round would end if you exhausted Backup Muscle and then your opponent passed. Stalling is a no-go.

2 minutes ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

I think you missed the part about the rules update. It's not better than passing, it is passing. The round would end if you exhausted Backup Muscle and then your opponent passed. Stalling is a no-go.

Yeah, I just noticed that new rules posted today. I find this to be an odd ruling. Exhausting a card should be enough to count as a change of game state.

That's because they haven't actually defined "game state." XD

17 hours ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

I think you missed the part about the rules update. It's not better than passing, it is passing. The round would end if you exhausted Backup Muscle and then your opponent passed. Stalling is a no-go.

An important difference is that this would be an attempt at turtling, not stalling. Stalling is cheating, turtling is just playing strategically (and legally).

That said, this isn't turtling because of that new update, thanks for letting me know they updated the rules! Looks like that came right around the time of my post, so perfect timing!

18 hours ago, pstalker said:

Yeah, I just noticed that new rules posted today. I find this to be an odd ruling. Exhausting a card should be enough to count as a change of game state.

It is a change in game state. The new ruling doesn't say exhausting a card is not a change in game state. It just says that if it is the ONLY change in game state the it counts as a pass.

Quote

If a player exhausts or plays a card that does
not change the game state other than that card being
exhausted or played

1 hour ago, anthonybarnstable said:

An important difference is that this would be an attempt at turtling, not stalling. Stalling is cheating, turtling is just playing strategically (and legally).

What's to stop you from exhausting Backup Muscle every time your opponent passed until time ran out? That's definitely stalling.

37 minutes ago, DailyRich said:

What's to stop you from exhausting Backup Muscle every time your opponent passed until time ran out? That's definitely stalling.

You could do it once per round, twice if you have two out. I don't think it's stalling. It was a way to pass, without actually passing.

I agree with the ruling, just wish it were worded a little better.

8 hours ago, DailyRich said:

What's to stop you from exhausting Backup Muscle every time your opponent passed until time ran out? That's definitely stalling.

The fact that you can only exhaust ready cards and that it is not easy to ready it without starting a new round. It takes up maybe 5 seconds of time? It alters the game state (as the new rules even acknowledge, it just alters it so minority, they don't want to allow it), so it is taking an action and advancing the game through new game states. It just does very little to accomplish the goal of killing all of the opponent's characters or making them run out of cards in hand. In a minis game, building a protective barrier between you and your opponent doesn't accomplish killing their pieces for a win, but it does alter the game state, so it is just turtling. It is using a tactic to advance the game towards a conclusion while taking actions that advance it in the smallest increments possible. It is not stalling and refusing to advance the game to try and end the game at the current state in order to win.

11 hours ago, DailyRich said:

What's to stop you from exhausting Backup Muscle every time your opponent passed until time ran out? That's definitely stalling.

What's to stop you from passing every time your opponent passes. That's the same thing.

9 hours ago, rowdyoctopus said:

What's to stop you from passing every time your opponent passes. That's the same thing.

It's not exactly the same thing, that moves the game forward and the next round starts.

While I don't agree that it was stalling, it definitely was a way to game the system a bit to pass without actually passing. There are situations where you may want to pass but don't want to give your opponent the opportunity to end the round by passing themselves, this was a way around that. They could of course still choose to pass, but it wouldn't end the round, now that decision is on the other player. Or they take another action and you get to see the results of that before deciding what to do.

I like that you can't do it now.

54 minutes ago, netherspirit1982 said:

It's not exactly the same thing, that moves the game forward and the next round starts.

While I don't agree that it was stalling, it definitely was a way to game the system a bit to pass without actually passing. There are situations where you may want to pass but don't want to give your opponent the opportunity to end the round by passing themselves, this was a way around that. They could of course still choose to pass, but it wouldn't end the round, now that decision is on the other player. Or they take another action and you get to see the results of that before deciding what to do.

I like that you can't do it now.

That's what I meant, though. Exhausting it now counts as a pass. So right now, functionally, exhausting a token less Backup Muscle Everytime your opponent passes is the same exact thing as declaring pass when your opponent passes. It's not gonna be considered stalling.

Just now, rowdyoctopus said:

That's what I meant, though. Exhausting it now counts as a pass. So right now, functionally, exhausting a token less Backup Muscle Everytime your opponent passes is the same exact thing as declaring pass when your opponent passes. It's not gonna be considered stalling.

Gotcha.

I was just saying that I don't think they changed it because it was stalling because it wasn't all that much of a "stall". I think they changed it because it was a way to pass without passing. No longer an issue, it's not a pass. Hurray.

24 minutes ago, netherspirit1982 said:

Gotcha.

I was just saying that I don't think they changed it because it was stalling because it wasn't all that much of a "stall". I think they changed it because it was a way to pass without passing. No longer an issue, it's not a pass. Hurray.

Actually it is a pass, haha. You can still do it, it's just the same as saying pass.

Just now, rowdyoctopus said:

Actually it is a pass, haha. You can still do it, it's just the same as saying pass.

Typo on my part, not = now.

Of course you can still do it, but it doesn't have the benefit of passing without passing.

It gives your fingers something to do.

There's an advantage to keeping it around anyway in the event you're forced to discard a support card.

The new rules from May 2017 show on page 24, in example 2, that exhausting backup muscle counts as an action whether or not it has any damage counters on it.

The change that this keeps getting confused with is example 1 from the same page where you cannot activate Veers ability without any of his die in your pool and have it count as anything but passing.