You have TWO upgrade equipment Jetpacks attached to Finn.

In your dice pool, you have:
- Finn showing 2 ranged.
- Jetpack showing +3 ranged modifier.
- Jetpack showing 1 disrupt.

Your opponent plays the event Disarm, removes one of his 2 ranged dice to discard one of the Jetpacks.
It would be to your opponent's advantage to remove the Jetpack die showing the +3 ranged modifier.
It would be to your advantage to remove the Jetpack die showing the 1 disrupt.

Which Jetpack die is removed?

(Rules Reference pg. 9 - Dice Leaving Play
If a player has two copies of the same upgrade on a character, and both of those upgrade dice are in their dice pool when they have to discard an upgrade from play, the player can choose which die to remove and set aside.

(Tournament Rules pg. 5 - Dice Proceedures)
When a player controls multiple cards or effects that use a die with the same collector number, he or she must designate the specific card or effect that each die in their dice pool corresponds to.

Unfortunately its just 2 conflicting rules documents, neither is correct because they contradict each other, and would be a subjective clarification and determination by the head judge on a tournament by tournament basis.

Sadly this level of poor document "alignment" shall we say is not new to FFG games with competitive rules documents.

As for My opinion, I'm inclined to go with the rules from the tournament documents rather than the RRG.

It makes sense both logically and thematically.

There are potentially some memory issues, however having said that as the player with Disarm in the original hypothetical situation you should be able to say "discard the jetpack showing the +3" as it only seems fair.

You have TWO upgrade equipment Jetpacks attached to Finn.

In your dice pool, you have:

- Finn showing 2 ranged.

- Jetpack showing +3 ranged modifier.

- Jetpack showing 1 disrupt.

Your opponent plays the event Disarm, removes one of his 2 ranged dice to discard one of the Jetpacks.

It would be to your opponent's advantage to remove the Jetpack die showing the +3 ranged modifier.

It would be to your advantage to remove the Jetpack die showing the 1 disrupt.

Which Jetpack die is removed?

(Rules Reference pg. 9 - Dice Leaving Play

If a player has two copies of the same upgrade on a character, and both of those upgrade dice are in their dice pool when they have to discard an upgrade from play, the player can choose which die to remove and set aside.

(Tournament Rules pg. 5 - Dice Proceedures)

When a player controls multiple cards or effects that use a die with the same collector number, he or she must designate the specific card or effect that each die in their dice pool corresponds to.

You've pretty much answered the question yourself. In a tournament setting, your opponent gets to pick. In a casual setting, you get to pick. Realistically, even in a casual setting, most people play by tournament rules and the opponent would be able to pick.

Each die corresponds to a single, unique card in play. The player resolving Disarm chooses the card which corresponds to the die he wants removed. EZPZ.

Each die corresponds to a single, unique card in play. The player resolving Disarm chooses the card which corresponds to the die he wants removed. EZPZ.

I don't agree with this guy much, but in this case, he is absolutely correct. The fact that there are two jetpacks doesn't confuse the fact that that one is chosen an removed.

Each die corresponds to a single, unique card in play. The player resolving Disarm chooses the card which corresponds to the die he wants removed. EZPZ.

Whilst I don’t disagree with the end conclusion the exact wording of Disarm targets an upgrade card, not its dice. You target your own die to pay the cost but the disarm effect specifically references discarding the upgrade card.

Now when the RRG specifically says:

Rules Reference pg. 9 - Dice Leaving Play

If a player has two copies of the same upgrade on a character, and both of those upgrade dice are in their dice pool when they have to discard an upgrade from play, the player can choose which die to remove and set aside.

So putting aside the contradictory statement in the tournament rules, from the RRG which would appear to refer to this exact situation, and with the wording on Disarm, one could would have no choice but to conclude that the player with the jetpacks get to decide which die is removed.

Again I'm of the opinion that the player using disarm should make the call but it is certainly nowhere near a clear cut decision.

If they were to say that tournament rules override the RRG then it would be fine.

The framework rules tell us how to resolve a scenario where there's doubt about who gets to choose (like simultaneous triggers), but there's no doubt here. The card - Disarm - allows the person resolving it to pick the target. Card > RRG.

Read the paragraph immediately above the one you guys keep quoting, and then ask yourself this question: does the upgrade have a matching die (and vice versa)? They obviously do, since you have to track them if they're attached to separate characters.

I do think this issue needs to be addressed.

It should be the player playing Disarm picks which dice to remove, but that's currently not how it's written and I think that needs to be changed.

If you have f.e. two Stormtroopers in play, you also have to separate each die to the card the die belongs to, because if one trooper would be detroyed and both dice are in the dice pool, the enemy must know which die is removed afterwards...

My solution is always that I roll all dice separately in the order they are attached to my character and after rolling them i place them above my character in the rolled order from left to right... so it is clear at everytime which die belongs to which card...

Nothing to say left...

Each die in a pool corresponds to and is assigned to one card. When you play disarm you may ask opponent witch die goes with witch card.

the scenario where you can chose witch die to remove is only on your turn when you play an upgrade from hand decreasing is cost with upgrade card or when you redeploy a card.

6 hours ago, Veritas85 said:

If you have f.e. two Stormtroopers in play, you also have to separate each die to the card the die belongs to, because if one trooper would be detroyed and both dice are in the dice pool, the enemy must know which die is removed afterwards...

My solution is always that I roll all dice separately in the order they are attached to my character and after rolling them i place them above my character in the rolled order from left to right... so it is clear at everytime which die belongs to which card...

Nothing to say left...

In response to above, that is not allowed unless the player is physically unable to roll all the dice simultaneously. That is in the tournament rules. (Tournament regulations, pg. 5)

In response to the actual post and poster.

The card Disarm states that the player chooses a weapon or equipment card. Disarm does not state to choose and remove a die. Removing the die is a by product of discarding the weapon or equipment. It can be inferred that the card Disarm is asking for the player resolving it to choose by naming, not choose by pointing at a specific card. Therefore, the player resolving Disarm has to say in this instance "Jetpack", but cannot pick which Jetpack because that involves choosing the dice not the card.

As stated above the Rules Reference pdf has a rule on page 9 for that instance.

While it would be more fair for the player resolving Disarm to choose the specific card corresponding to the die with damage, this game is not always fair to the player.

A good example is the Choose - Either principle on Rules Reference pg.18 resolving the card Abandon All Hope. The opponent can choose an option where nothing happens.

I, like many others, started playing this game assuming that it was and acted like other card games. I think that is what makes this game great.

14 hours ago, player2386699 said:

In response to above, that is not allowed unless the player is physically unable to roll all the dice simultaneously. That is in the tournament rules. (Tournament regulations, pg. 5)

That is one reason why I would leave a tournament... don't wanna see my dice crush on each other (what happens if you throw four dice at once)...

but FFG's thoughts look like "hey, if someones die is scratched too much and not usable anymore, the person will probably buy a new booster to get a new unscratched die..."

17 hours ago, player2386699 said:

In response to above, that is not allowed unless the player is physically unable to roll all the dice simultaneously. That is in the tournament rules. (Tournament regulations, pg. 5)

In response to the actual post and poster.

The card Disarm states that the player chooses a weapon or equipment card. Disarm does not state to choose and remove a die. Removing the die is a by product of discarding the weapon or equipment. It can be inferred that the card Disarm is asking for the player resolving it to choose by naming, not choose by pointing at a specific card. Therefore, the player resolving Disarm has to say in this instance "Jetpack", but cannot pick which Jetpack because that involves choosing the dice not the card.

As stated above the Rules Reference pdf has a rule on page 9 for that instance.

While it would be more fair for the player resolving Disarm to choose the specific card corresponding to the die with damage, this game is not always fair to the player.

A good example is the Choose - Either principle on Rules Reference pg.18 resolving the card Abandon All Hope. The opponent can choose an option where nothing happens.

I, like many others, started playing this game assuming that it was and acted like other card games. I think that is what makes this game great.

How can you infer that Disarm is asking for a name but not a specific card? If you're leaving it up to your opponent to choose he might as well choose one of your Jetpacks, since Disarm doesn't mention opponents either. Seriously, some of these interpretations are nebulous to the point of hilarity. When do we get to stop pretending that dice and the cards they're attached to is hidden information?

The person playing Disarm chooses the upgrade and that upgrade has a corresponding die. Those are removed. Another copy of the same upgrade does not confuse this fact. You guys are way over thinking things.

Okay, I wrote FFG and asked them this question. This is the response I got:

- - - - -

Jeff,
You can follow both rules at the same time. I will look into making sure that this upgrade exception, however, makes it into the tournament rules. Thanks for pointing this out,

--

Lukas Litzsinger
Game Designer
Fantasy Flight Games

- - - - -

So, it sounds like you do track each die to its card, as per the tournament rules. However, there is an exception in the situation where if you have two of the same upgrades on one character and must remove one of the upgrades with both dice in the dice pool. In this exception you (the player controlling both upgrades) choose which die to remove with the card, as per the rules reference.

Or you follow the second rule first, identify corresponding die to cards, and target the upgrade with the corresponding damage die to be removed. To barrow a word from magic, Disarmed seems to 'target' an upgrade not just any upgrade. Also the rule from page 9, who is the 'player'? The owner of the upgrade or the one playing disarm?

I don't think Lukas gave a clear explanation but will in the future. My guess is the 'player' is the one playing disarmed since they are doing the removing.

After rolling the dice you place them so that they are clearly identified as to who they belong to . I would protest to a judge that my opponent was being a poor sport if they tried pulling this on me.

Only one player is mentioned in the above rules, and that's the player with the double upgrade. No where in that paragraph do they mention how they have to discard the upgrade, nor an opponent bein g involved in the discarding.

"The player" is referred to the one who owns the double upgrade, and that player decides which die is removed, no matter what or who is making him discard.

52 minutes ago, JLeisten said:

Only one player is mentioned in the above rules, and that's the player with the double upgrade. No where in that paragraph do they mention how they have to discard the upgrade, nor an opponent bein g involved in the discarding.

"The player" is referred to the one who owns the double upgrade, and that player decides which die is removed, no matter what or who is making him discard.

That's because the card tells you what to do, and the card trumps the RRG. What does this add to the conversation beyond repeating information that's already been addressed and refuted?

I don't understand that ruling at all, if we're required to keep track of which dice belong to which specific card, why do we need an exception for two upgrades being on the same character? Seems unnecessary.

It's future proofing the game for rare scenarios where there might be doubt about who gets to choose.

Who gets to choose what? The card or the dice?

In either case I don't see how there is a choice as each die is supposed to be clearly defined as belonging to a specific card. Maybe I'm missing something here. I didn't get much sleep last night. lol

On 1/24/2017 at 8:17 PM, player2386699 said:

In response to above, that is not allowed unless the player is physically unable to roll all the dice simultaneously. That is in the tournament rules. (Tournament regulations, pg. 5)

The designer has already explained this is erroneous on the part of the tournament rules and you still need to roll copies of the same die separately if they are on different characters.

2 hours ago, netherspirit1982 said:

Who gets to choose what? The card or the dice?

In either case I don't see how there is a choice as each die is supposed to be clearly defined as belonging to a specific card. Maybe I'm missing something here. I didn't get much sleep last night. lol

The player resolving Disarm gets to choose which upgrade to remove, and then the corresponding die is removed along with it. The rules on page 9 let the player choose which die to remove in circumstances where they have to choose and discard an upgrade of their own (and where the opponent is not already involved), but that's not the particular circumstance we're discussing here. Nowhere on Disarm does it enable your opponent to make a choice.

2 hours ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

The player resolving Disarm gets to choose which upgrade to remove, and then the corresponding die is removed along with it. The rules on page 9 let the player choose which die to remove in circumstances where they have to choose and discard an upgrade of their own (and where the opponent is not already involved), but that's not the particular circumstance we're discussing here. Nowhere on Disarm does it enable your opponent to make a choice.

I got that.

It's the bold part that seems unnecessary to me and just confuses the situation.

If dice are tracked to be assigned to specific cards, which they are, then there is no need to make the distinction that the player can choose which die to remove if they have to choose an upgrade that they have 2 of to remove because they'd always just choose the upgrade with the die they are okay to lose. Choose the card and the die associated with it goes away with it.

Granted the end result is the same with the rule and without, the player is left with one copy of their upgrade and the die they want, just seems unnecessary to make an exception that isn't really an exception.