This topic is a NPE. I call foul play!

X-wing simply needs a new edition/mkII/2.0/Whatever. Any further revisions just makes the game more complex and imbalanced.

FFG needs to release a 2nd edition/mkII/2.0/Whatever with a new kit per faction with an assortment of new bases and cards. They probably need to change their stat lines to allow for more variation.

X-wing simply needs a new edition/mkII/2.0/Whatever. Any further revisions just makes the game more complex and imbalanced.

FFG needs to release a 2nd edition/mkII/2.0/Whatever with a new kit per faction with an assortment of new bases and cards. They probably need to change their stat lines to allow for more variation.

No.

I think NPE has less to do with losing and more to do with the manner of the lost. This broadly translates into establishing a set of rules and then having one player able to break those rules while the other one cannot.

Player 1: I thought you could move one once?

Player 2: Usually yes, but I have this card that says I can move again.

Player 2: Ok, now I get to fire at you again with this ship.

Player 1: Wait, why can you fire again, the whole game is built on one attack per ship per round?

Player 2: Because my pilot has this ability.

Player 1: Ok, I rolled my dice and have 3 hits.

Player 2: No, I'm going to change that result to a blank. I have this card that says I can.

Player 1: ?

Breaking the core mechanics of your game requires delicate balance. Creating too many exceptions can lead to play where both sides are following different sets of rules.

I think NPE has less to do with losing and more to do with the manner of the lost. This broadly translates into establishing a set of rules and then having one player able to break those rules while the other one cannot.

Player 1: I thought you could move one once?

Player 2: Usually yes, but I have this card that says I can move again.

Player 2: Ok, now I get to fire at you again with this ship.

Player 1: Wait, why can you fire again, the whole game is built on one attack per ship per round?

Player 2: Because my pilot has this ability.

Player 1: Ok, I rolled my dice and have 3 hits.

Player 2: No, I'm going to change that result to a blank. I have this card that says I can.

Player 1: ?

Breaking the core mechanics of your game requires delicate balance. Creating too many exceptions can lead to play where both sides are following different sets of rules.

Indeed. I'm not saying no ship should ever be able to break the rules - all pilots with unique abilities must in some way be able to 'do the impossible' otherwise they're no different to the generics.

The point at which a game feels like a negative experience is when a matchup of lists gives a disparity (however it does so) where one player doesn't merely lose (that's just sour grapes, whether we want to admit it to ourself or not), but feels like no alternate decisions by him would have changed the result .

This is why (in early waves) the combination of high pilot skill, boost, a large base, and a 360' arc of fire was so loathed - because, essentially, you saw where I'd moved to, then boosted wherever was needed to give no shot - and didn't care about lining up your own arc of fire (where a TIE interceptor could do the same, but usually gave up its own shot to avoid its opponent's).

That's not saying all large based PWTs are negative play experiences, nor that only large base PWTs are negative play experiences - this is something that to a degree is player-specific, and list specific; it's where your list (whether you deliberately skewed it to 'spam' one capability or not) 'bounces off' another list in a 'scissors/paper/stone' fashion.

From my experiences, the term 'NPE' seems only to come up when someone wants to complain about a card or combination they perceive as unbalanced, because they believe it lends greater authority to their bias by attributing a "game-design-y" sounding phrase to their complaint.

It comes across as a meaningless buzzword that immediately devalues an opinion.

The point at which a game feels like a negative experience is when a matchup of lists gives a disparity (however it does so) where one player doesn't merely lose (that's just sour grapes, whether we want to admit it to ourself or not), but feels like no alternate decisions by him would have changed the result .

Oh, that's a good definition. Can you please link to a replay that has this characteristic?

I see the "feels" in there though. That makes the definition still entirely subjective. I'd like to replace it with "but no alternate decisions by him would have changed the result" instead, because that's objectively measurable.

So THAT'S what NPE means.

3 hours ago, haslo said:

I'd like to replace it with "but no alternate decisions by him would have changed the result" instead, because that's objectively measurable.

That is a good way to look at it, but the problem is that's not how most people seem to use it. They use it as MalusCalibur put it, as a way to make it sound like there's more to it then just not having fun.

The problem is the phrase seems to have a sense of authority to it, it sounds like a technical term, but if all it really means is that someone didn't have fun it's a largely meaningless phrase that sounds far worse than it really is.

But if we define it like the above then it actually has some sort of real meaning.

4 hours ago, MalusCalibur said:

From my experiences, the term 'NPE' seems only to come up when someone wants to complain about a card or combination they perceive as unbalanced, because they believe it lends greater authority to their bias by attributing a "game-design-y" sounding phrase to their complaint.

It comes across as a meaningless buzzword that immediately devalues an opinion.

I've heard the term bounced around a few times, but can't recall for what. I didn't even know it was from game designer space.

I can say that it completely describes why the majority of people I've seen quit X-wing, though. I've built my local scene and I'd say about 50% of the people that start collecting are still playing the game in 6 months. The game is still growing, but I've talked to the guys that quit to try to find out why. It's usually people that play numerous game systems and they don't keep up with the latest and greatest developments in X-wing. I've helped them get into the game and just had fun with it. I can't play them every game and they often move on and play other gamers in the group. When I ask them why they quit, they say they just don't pay as much attention to the latest and greatest stuff and it's just not as much fun as they first thought. Most will usually give a shy glance over at the tournament gamers at this point. I try to talk them into playing with just casual players, but they are out at that point. The tournament lists are just too brutal for them and they get sick of losing. They don't want to spend all the time and effort to learn the tournament combos to win games. They just like plopping down Wedge and Luke and other iconic ships to play a fun game of X-wing.

To me...I call that a negative play experience. It's not one card or pilot or whatever. It's just that lots of people want to build powerful lists to compete at a high level of the game. There are a good number of people that just don't. Those that aren't that into the game have too many games and they get beat down. They aren't whiney about it and only answer my questions when I push them on it. They aren't dramatic about leaving. I just see them at other game tables playing other games and never X-wing anymore.

I have only 2-3 peeps I play with on a regular basis. Never done a FLGS casual play or tournament yet and it has been a year since I started. What is interesting is that each of my friends play for entirely different reasons.

Friend A; Early 40's experienced former 40K guy. Plays in tournaments often. He's the one that got us all started. Smart guy who likes to take the fringes of the meta and try to stay one step ahead. Very competitive. Won't do Hangar Bay or Epic or Missions and wants to always do timed matches which I don't always want to do. I play meta lists for him so he can get ready for tournaments, he'll design a list for me and I just try to do my best. We split wins often. Our games can be...shall we say...mind bending-ly tactical. His NPEs come from his frequently terrible dice luck, and hard counter lists.

Friend B; Early 50's greybeard who is very low key. Rarely plays. Owns nearly everything. Will take some netlists and run them out of curiosity to see what all the hub bub is about. Bumps ships often. Never takes it personal. Not overly passionate, but enjoys the game for what it is. I practice out new lists with him and just try to make it fun but I win almost all of them. Mild sparring is what our lists wind up doing. His NPE usually comes from when he makes his own mistakes as he is generally a bright man.

Friend C; Late 20's and a highly outgoing positive person with a razor sharp eye for maneuvering and calculating odds. We play everything--missions, epic, escalation, hangar bay, poison pick, lottery draft, build a list for a buddy etc. We coach each other through all the facets of the game and it is always highly entertaining. We have had some wildly fulfilling thematic clashes and memorable duels. We both go on streaks in regards to winning dogfights and the pendulum swings back. We high five each other often when the other wins and shake hands before each game. It helps he is my cousin in law and we drink craft brews together. I think an NPE for him is almost non existent.

Me, I'm a mid 40's TSR guy, who really enjoys playing this game for the cinematic feel. I fulfill all the different roles for my friends. I'm a decent pilot, flying large ships way better than small ones for some reason. I have tremendously fortunate dice luck, with any dice. I'm the kind of idiot who would put Leia into a Rebel build or fly four Kihraxz and accidentally win. A negative play experience for me is probably the major meta stuff, as it kills creativity within a casual group, or things that outright deny me the chance to use my ships abilities. To be honest, I would prefer a game every time with different ships, different cards.

At the end of the day, I suppose it comes down to knowing what you want out of a game. If you can find a happy medium in that and stretch just a LITTLE bit outside your comfort zone once in awhile, I think it is the difference.

My two cents.

I'll explain a NPE that happened recently. There is a great local guy who plays very competitively, but often likes to find unusual lists to do it with. He's been playing the Galaxy Note 7 or some other type of list. He loves Bombs and likes K-wings. He went against 5 Quadjumpers and had a NPE. He hated it. A week later, he tried it again with a different list and the other guy only had 1 Quadjumper. He hated it. The ability to do an action and TB someone pretty much ruined it for him. Local guy said it takes away a lot of the game when he can't even outfly it. The dial is pretty good to almost always get someone at R1 and then throw the TB on them. It created a NPE and he was ready to quit tournaments all together....and he's the guy who runs them all!

Yeah, he might get better at flying against them...but that was still a Negative Play Experience. He might have to retire K-wings for a while, too. I'd say that's definitely a NPE.

24 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

I'll explain a NPE that happened recently. There is a great local guy who plays very competitively, but often likes to find unusual lists to do it with. He's been playing the Galaxy Note 7 or some other type of list. He loves Bombs and likes K-wings. He went against 5 Quadjumpers and had a NPE. He hated it. A week later, he tried it again with a different list and the other guy only had 1 Quadjumper. He hated it. The ability to do an action and TB someone pretty much ruined it for him. Local guy said it takes away a lot of the game when he can't even outfly it. The dial is pretty good to almost always get someone at R1 and then throw the TB on them. It created a NPE and he was ready to quit tournaments all together....and he's the guy who runs them all!

Yeah, he might get better at flying against them...but that was still a Negative Play Experience. He might have to retire K-wings for a while, too. I'd say that's definitely a NPE.

My NPE is usually this for me. I have a reputation of being pretty good with winning some local tournaments. Nothing major or anything. But local people I play with get upset after one bad engagement now. I just wanna test out different lists, but what happens is if something goes wrong for my opponent early in whatever list I'm running they will dwell on it and they lose right there not from what happened but their attitude. It's not fun at all.

Like a couple leagues ago I was playing a list and took down a ship early, but the game was no where from decided and the player says, "well there goes this game, just gave you 100 points" and the attitude of him was so negative that I stopped enjoying the game and ended up losing cuz I didn't even care anymore.

When things go wrong I love to make that comeback or analyze what went wrong and learn from it. It's come to me playing one of the other guys a lot more than anyone else because he's on par skill wise with me and we can test a million lists out and if something doesn't work, we don't care we just attempt a new one. At no time do we ever get upset after one bad engagement.

The typical NPE for me was the Time Elemental deck in M:TG. There was this combination of cards and once that was on the table, the opponent no longer had any turns. So he basically couldn't play anymore. This was not inevitable and I'm sure it was possible to counter it, but the quality of the game suffered.

I wouldn't get too hung up about the definition of a Negative Play Experience: you'll recognize one when you see it. And there is little point in trying to convince someone else that he/she did not have an NPE. Your arguments will not make make the game suddenly a lot of fun when it previously wasn't. So the "that's not an NPE, it was just the player's attitude!" line of reasoning may be understandable, it's also rather pointless.

9 hours ago, heychadwick said:

I'll explain a NPE that happened recently. There is a great local guy who plays very competitively, but often likes to find unusual lists to do it with. He's been playing the Galaxy Note 7 or some other type of list. He loves Bombs and likes K-wings. He went against 5 Quadjumpers and had a NPE. He hated it. A week later, he tried it again with a different list and the other guy only had 1 Quadjumper. He hated it. The ability to do an action and TB someone pretty much ruined it for him. Local guy said it takes away a lot of the game when he can't even outfly it. The dial is pretty good to almost always get someone at R1 and then throw the TB on them. It created a NPE and he was ready to quit tournaments all together....and he's the guy who runs them all!

Yeah, he might get better at flying against them...but that was still a Negative Play Experience. He might have to retire K-wings for a while, too. I'd say that's definitely a NPE.

The fastest they can go is 3. On a 5 hull 2 agi ship that won't get mods if it tractors. Can't say I can drum up much sympathy for a netlister losing to jank then getting pissy about it.

1 hour ago, Chumbalaya said:

The fastest they can go is 3. On a 5 hull 2 agi ship that won't gey mods if it tractors. Can't say I can drum up much sympathy for a netlister losing to jank then getting pissy about it.

Actually, he was not a netlister. He was always the guy pulling out the crazy crap. Always doing variants, bombs, and fun stuff.

Just now, heychadwick said:

Actually, he was not a netlister. He was always the guy pulling out the crazy crap. Always doing variants, bombs, and fun stuff.

But Quadjumpers are made of fun! It's the jankiest ship in the game!

1 hour ago, Chumbalaya said:

The fastest they can go is 3. On a 5 hull 2 agi ship that won't get mods if it tractors. Can't say I can drum up much sympathy for a netlister losing to jank then getting pissy about it.

I don't get why netlister is such a derogatory word. People have fun with X-Wing in different ways. Some like the list building and some like trying lists they see that look fun and don't have time to try out random things.

Plus, didn't you just win the first system open with Parattani? Not saying using that list is a bad thing at all and you were obviously the best player there, but bringing the word netlist into the conversation as a negative after just winning one of the biggest tournaments with a netlist seems very hypercritical.

10 minutes ago, Chumbalaya said:

But Quadjumpers are made of fun! It's the jankiest ship in the game!

Oh, I agree. I like them. There was juts one true believer in X-wing and the competitive scene and his faith just died. It's just kind of sad. He looks at the Quadjumper as I look at the Tie Phantom: Something utterly broken to the core value of the game. I'm fine with them, but he's not.

2 minutes ago, Tbetts94 said:

I don't get why netlister is such a derogatory word. People have fun with X-Wing in different ways. Some like the list building and some like trying lists they see that look fun and don't have time to try out random things.

Plus, didn't you just win the first system open with Parattani? Not saying using that list is a bad thing at all and you were obviously the best player there, but bringing the word netlist into the conversation as a negative after just winning one of the biggest tournaments with a netlist seems very hypercritical.

Context, my man. Getting mad about losing to a wonky list while playing something established would be the negative part. But I can see your point. Doesn't matter what list you play so long as you're being a cool dude.

To avoid a negative play experience, ask specifically to your opponent if he/she knows what your upgrades do. If they don't, explain the cards. This way when they come into play they know what to expect. And fly casual. Be somewhat lenient towards your opponent. And don't be salty if your dice are sour of when you're losing. It's all part of the game!

9 hours ago, heychadwick said:

I'll explain a NPE that happened recently. There is a great local guy who plays very competitively, but often likes to find unusual lists to do it with. He's been playing the Galaxy Note 7 or some other type of list. He loves Bombs and likes K-wings. He went against 5 Quadjumpers and had a NPE. He hated it. A week later, he tried it again with a different list and the other guy only had 1 Quadjumper. He hated it. The ability to do an action and TB someone pretty much ruined it for him. Local guy said it takes away a lot of the game when he can't even outfly it. The dial is pretty good to almost always get someone at R1 and then throw the TB on them. It created a NPE and he was ready to quit tournaments all together....and he's the guy who runs them all!

Yeah, he might get better at flying against them...but that was still a Negative Play Experience. He might have to retire K-wings for a while, too. I'd say that's definitely a NPE.

The irony here is that Rebel bombing lists are something many players would have the same gripes about.

I have several NPE :

"Complain about what you play" : I love my tie/sf or interceptor what the big deal ? Especially when they play TLT or large ship only but said title/sf is op....

"Always lucky with the dice" : But said nothing when they have luck during the game...

"Boring game" : I have no fun when my opponent refuse the fight, play defensive. No single shot during one hour....

"When he lose it's because of your*insert what you want" : but said nothing when they win with k-wing/sabine....

Seriously It's a fun game, win or lose is not important. Share a good moment with friends rather than complain !