Sweet
Though, it was my only win for the longest time, but I never felt bad about losing because i was just getting into the game, going against people who've been playing since the game had started, i still try not to feel bad about losing because i can always get better, and the times i do feel bad, it was mostly my flying (but also the dice gods hating me) that made me lose
Sweet
Though, it was my only win for the longest time, but I never felt bad about losing because i was just getting into the game, going against people who've been playing since the game had started, i still try not to feel bad about losing because i can always get better, and the times i do feel bad, it was mostly my flying (but also the dice gods hating me) that made me lose
The build match ups can be a factor in determining the game too. Not sure how long you have been playing. However, these online articles may or may be of help:
Squad Building
https://zombiesquadron.net/2017/01/19/when-to-stop-with-a-squad/
Movement
The build match ups can be a factor in determining the game too. Not sure how long you have been playing. However, these online articles may or may be of help:Sweet
Though, it was my only win for the longest time, but I never felt bad about losing because i was just getting into the game, going against people who've been playing since the game had started, i still try not to feel bad about losing because i can always get better, and the times i do feel bad, it was mostly my flying (but also the dice gods hating me) that made me lose
Squad Building
https://zombiesquadron.net/2017/01/19/when-to-stop-with-a-squad/
Movement
I still say it's a Negative Play Experience, though.
That's fine, but I think most people consider NPE to have a set meaning that meaning doesn't include someone not having fun. Myself when someone says something is a NPE, I normally associate that with some card or mechanic being in some way broken.
For example the pre-phantom nerf, could be considered a NPE.
But what a NPE actually is, is to a point an argument of semantics
Yes, it is a community thing, but I still say FFG doesn't do much to promote an alternative to tournament games.
Sure they could. I assume there's some reason why they don't, rather than they simply don't care, because that seems rather short sighted. Perhaps they think they do enough, and more effort aimed at casual players would be wasted. Perhaps they don't see a profit in doing so. Not really sure why, but I assume there's a reason for it.
Edited by VanorDMYes, it is a community thing, but I still say FFG doesn't do much to promote an alternative to tournament games.
Sure they could. I assume there's some reason why they don't, rather than they simply don't care, because that seems rather short sighted. Perhaps they think they do enough, and more effort aimed at casual players would be wasted. Perhaps they don't see a profit in doing so. Not really sure why, but I assume there's a reason for it.
I'm just curious. What do folks think FFG could do to promote the game that is an alternative to tournament games? If you include some sort of prize support then you'll have competitive players coming out for exclusive items. In addition, if there is nothing to attract folks then the retailer will lose out on business with less of a volume of people. Also, if you do some campaign then you'll need a dedicated X-Wing group to play through it. Plus it'll most likely last more than one day.
Generally the game night kits come in at $25 to retailers. So, if you're FFG and want to promote an alternative to tournament play than the game night kits. Then what would you do? Keep in mind the kits cost the retailers money and this alternate kit needs to attract folks to the retailer hosting it. I would assume the event last only a day at the retail store too.
Yes, it is a community thing, but I still say FFG doesn't do much to promote an alternative to tournament games.
Sure they could. I assume there's some reason why they don't, rather than they simply don't care, because that seems rather short sighted. Perhaps they think they do enough, and more effort aimed at casual players would be wasted. Perhaps they don't see a profit in doing so. Not really sure why, but I assume there's a reason for it.
I'm just curious. What do folks think FFG could do to promote the game that is an alternative to tournament games? If you include some sort of prize support then you'll have competitive players coming out for exclusive items. In addition, if there is nothing to attract folks then the retailer will lose out on business with less of a volume of people. Also, if you do some campaign then you'll need a dedicated X-Wing group to play through it. Plus it'll most likely last more than one day.
Generally the game night kits come in at $25 to retailers. So, if you're FFG and want to promote an alternative to tournament play than the game night kits. Then what would you do? Keep in mind the kits cost the retailers money and this alternate kit needs to attract folks to the retailer hosting it. I would assume the event last only a day at the retail store too.
Team Covenant had an interview with Steve Horvath (2015?) where he mentions that exact problem. They want to get casual people to the game stores, but how do they do that without getting competitive players attending those events, too? It doesn't seem to be an easy problem to solve.
What do folks think FFG could do to promote the game that is an alternative to tournament games?
You're right of course, it's hard to do a lot of prize support and not have it be competitive... But quite often the issue is less the competition, because X-Wing is in fact a competitive game by its very nature, you are trying to win after all.
But rather the issue is that to win you have to fly the current meta hotness. So something like a wave 1-3 only tournament could attract more casual type players because they know they'll avoid some of the current lists. Epic games tend to be more casual as well by nature.
A co-op campaign like HotAC could be a big help, especially if it has some sort of prize support.
I weary of seeing topics like these. When I started playing a few years ago and went to my first tournament, I lost every single game. Some games were close and some I lost badly, but I stuck in for the entire tournament. I didn't quit after a few losses or complain about it being unfair - I just chalked it up as a learning experience and moved forward. I hit a rut where it was frustrating and I wasn't winning, but eventually I started getting in the top half of the players and eventually won a small tournament.
I went to my first regional a month ago and un-ashamedly took Palp Defenders. I played with the list for only about a week before the regional - never really having flown Defenders in the past. I managed a Top 16 finish, losing my final few games to some much more experienced players - including someone running a list to mirror mine. He was simply more experienced with the list and better than me, making better decisions to get the win.
A few weeks after, the store I normally play at announced a tournament with choice of an Epic ship as a prize. I took the same list and managed to win, with one game very close that came down to the last round and me killing one of his ships to win based on points.
During that tournament, I played against somebody running Whisper and it was his first tournament. I reminded him once or twice when he didn't immediately decloak during the game. He managed to kill a Defender before I took out his list. When it was over, he asked me what I thought about his playing and what tips I might give him to help him get better. I shared some thoughts and pointed out some stuff he had missed and tactics that would have given him a better chance. I also dug into my box and gave him an extra acrylic cloak token I had. He was thankful and I felt like I had a new friend.
There were a few other relatively new players - who may not have realized what the competition was going to be like - that complained about paying $15 just to get their lists stomped.
We have a $5 tournament coming up where I plan to run a Tie striker list with some Ties and Tie/Fos in a mini swarm. I don't expect to be super competitive, but am running it for fun to see what I can do. I have encouraged some of the newer guys to come back - since this tournament should be less competitive and they will only sink in $5.
The whole point is - NEGATIVE play experience has a lot more to do with attitude than upgrades. You can lose and still have a positive gaming experience.
They want to get casual people to the game stores, but how do they do that without getting competitive players attending those events, too?
I wonder how the father's day thing went from FFG's point of view... If they considered it to be successful or not. That was supposed to be about more casual play.
What do folks think FFG could do to promote the game that is an alternative to tournament games?
You're right of course, it's hard to do a lot of prize support and not have it be competitive... But quite often the issue is less the competition, because X-Wing is in fact a competitive game by its very nature, you are trying to win after all.
But rather the issue is that to win you have to fly the current meta hotness. So something like a wave 1-3 only tournament could attract more casual type players because they know they'll avoid some of the current lists. Epic games tend to be more casual as well by nature.
A co-op campaign like HotAC could be a big help, especially if it has some sort of prize support.
I'm not saying there isn't other alternatives out there. However, I find campaigns tough to support because you need a dedicate group to play with and at times depending on the nature of the campaign it doesn't appeal to the group.
What is the consensus on how much weight puts into cards/combos that introduce a negative play experience to players (particularly new players). The current wave 9 meta has a few cards/combos that lead to this, but I think wave 10 meta will have many more.
Things like:
I'm not trying to make this be a rant filled thread but a discussion on the fact that there are more and more interactions in this amazing game that can cause these bad new player experiences.
- Zuckuss crew card in general.
- Dengaroo build
- Boshek crew card messing with opponents dial.
- Kylo crew causing double blinded pilot then PS 0 crits through shields. (meaning a ship potentially will not get to shoot for 3 rounds)
- Quadjumpers tractoring an ace, with the ace having no/minimal defense against it.
- And I'm sure there are others.
Edited
by Managarmr
My opinion/definition of a negative play experience would be abilities that prevent me from playing my list the way it is designed to be played. Restricted abilities that restrict my list in a limited way are not NPE.
For example, as a Kanan player, I absolutely hate seeing Carnor Jax or Old Teroch lined up on the other side. If I allow them to activate their abilities, I cannot activate mine. However it is not a NPE as their abilities are only at R1. Therefore, if I outplay my opponent, they cannot activate their abilities. Not a negative experience.
Back before the days of Autothrusters, PWT were a NPE - if you were an arc dodger, a PWT prevented you from playing your list the way it was designed to be played. However, due to the advent of AT, PWT now care about arcs against arc dodgers, and as such PWT are no longer a NPE. For non-arc dodging match ups, their lists are not designed to live and die by how evading arcs, but rather by their sheer jousting efficiency and dominate the PWT due to better power (or at least that's the theory).
Biggs is obnoxious and can make you feel helpless if you fly poorly against him - but you can arc dodge him, or take some ordnance against whomever he's protecting, or even just run into him so he's not a valid target. There are ways to neutralize Biggs, so he's not a NPE.
So, with that definition and those examples, I would consider the following NPE cards:
Kylo Ren crew
Boba Fett crew
Hot Shot Co-Pilot
That is all. As for the rationale - Kylo Ren crew (on Deci) can 100% lock down any 2 agility ship (or fewer) or rebel regen ship. The only way to avoid it is to double stress the Deci and hope Inspiring Recruit isn't somewhere in his list (blocking isn't an option since he can just use Dauntless to get a free action). Oh, and good luck getting that double stress as he'll just blind your stresshog so he can't shoot. The pilot version isn't a NPE - it's a scary ability, but I can avoid it by not shooting at the shuttle, or even use it to my advantage by shooting at the shuttle with a secondary priority target - now does your opponent shoot who they want to kill, or the guy with the condition card?.
Boba Fett crew is just obnoxious, especially for 1 point. He can 100% wreck your entire game plan - toss out your TLT on your 73 point Kanan, kill off R2D2 on your 49 point Regen Corran, eject Palpatine from the airlock on your 29 point shuttle, undoing your Alliance Overhaul on your ARC (serious talent there Mr. Fett!). All of these things just ruin how your list flies, and there's nothing you can do about it really (short of the obvious "git gud and don't allow that guy to shoot you." Thankfully he's rarely seen in play, though I don't understand why.
And then there's HSCP is getting some attention right now, and the way it forces you to spend your focus token is just jank against certain lists. Sure, there are plenty of people unaffected by it, but for all of those Poes out there that require that focus token, or those deadeye ordnance bombers - this is a huge FU.
There are other cards that are hard counters to lists that can be difficult to handle, but there's almost always an option to avoid it - it might be super difficult (try staying out of R1 of a good Jax player as a Ghost w/o EU) but there is a way to game plan for it and at least attempt to outfly your opponent to minimize the effectiveness of his list. But those above 3 things just take away all of your options and there's no real way to prevent them from happening.
Man, it's kind of depressing seeing so many people predict Kylo Ren crew will be NPE. I'm looking forward to finally getting my favorite TFA character in this game, and I risk getting dirty looks from the local playgroup. [shrugs]. That's a risk I guess I'm going to have to take.
-OH wait. I just realized that when people say Kylo Ren is NPE they really mean "Kylo Ren crew on Rear Admiral Chiraneau," don't they? I mean, you have to find ways to get that crit, which has the potential to destabilize your squad if you're trying too hard. Chiraneau is already neatly packaged in a turreted ship to distribute those mean pilot crits wherever.
You can lose and still have a positive gaming experience.
I couldn't agree more. . .
Every game I loose is a negative play experience for me
. . .and while your comment is meant to be snarky, I think a lot of people would mean it for real.
Yes, it is a community thing, but I still say FFG doesn't do much to promote an alternative to tournament games.
Sure they could. I assume there's some reason why they don't, rather than they simply don't care, because that seems rather short sighted. Perhaps they think they do enough, and more effort aimed at casual players would be wasted. Perhaps they don't see a profit in doing so. Not really sure why, but I assume there's a reason for it.
I'm just curious. What do folks think FFG could do to promote the game that is an alternative to tournament games? If you include some sort of prize support then you'll have competitive players coming out for exclusive items. In addition, if there is nothing to attract folks then the retailer will lose out on business with less of a volume of people. Also, if you do some campaign then you'll need a dedicated X-Wing group to play through it. Plus it'll most likely last more than one day.
Generally the game night kits come in at $25 to retailers. So, if you're FFG and want to promote an alternative to tournament play than the game night kits. Then what would you do? Keep in mind the kits cost the retailers money and this alternate kit needs to attract folks to the retailer hosting it. I would assume the event last only a day at the retail store too.
If an event lasts a day, some sort of mini-campaign would be quite do-able. And prize support* would not be based on MOV or eliminating other players, but rather on successfully completing the objectives of the campaign.
*Although, maybe some people could just get together at their FLGS for some fun without needing a carrot at the end of a stick.
Man, it's kind of depressing seeing so many people predict Kylo Ren crew will be NPE. I'm looking forward to finally getting my favorite TFA character in this game, and I risk getting dirty looks from the local playgroup. [shrugs]. That's a risk I guess I'm going to have to take.
-OH wait. I just realized that when people say Kylo Ren is NPE they really mean "Kylo Ren crew on Rear Admiral Chiraneau," don't they? I mean, you have to find ways to get that crit, which has the potential to destabilize your squad if you're trying too hard. Chiraneau is already neatly packaged in a turreted ship to distribute those mean pilot crits wherever.
Take Snap Shot. The moment an enemy ship moves, you can flip Blinded Pilot.
BTW, Kylo doesn't have to be on the decimator, does he? He doesn't care who causes the crit (let's all be thankful the condition does not trigger when a crit is suffered from an obstacle). And don't the Imperials have other ways of dealing criticals? ATC?
Atc and backdraft
Those guys have arcs, though, and can be avoided through good play
Cheri? Nerp. No matter how well you fly, youll probably eat **** from an unavoidable die toss
Edited by ficklegreendiceI would restrain from using ultra hardcore lists only in case of opponent being really inexperienced player who doesn't have enough cards or ships - in this case I would prefer equal match up instead of crushing him compeletely.
But I laugh at experienced players who hide behind NPE words - you just lost, you intentionally took suboptimal list or made mistakes during game - only fault is at you, not your opponent or some "overpowered" cards.
Atc and backdraft
Those guys have arcs, though, and can be avoided through good play
Cheri? Nerp. No matter how well you fly, youll probably eat **** from an unavoidable die toss
Dude. You totally forgot "Wampa"!
Atc and backdraft
Those guys have arcs, though, and can be avoided through good play
Cheri? Nerp. No matter how well you fly, youll probably eat **** from an unavoidable die toss
Dude. You totally forgot "Wampa"!
ner that's something else entirely
that's "Have crit, do thing" not "generate crit"
for Kylo, you'd need like...winged gundark
...ew
Edited by ficklegreendiceMy opinion/definition of a negative play experience would be abilities that prevent me from playing my list the way it is designed to be played. Restricted abilities that restrict my list in a limited way are not NPE.
For example, as a Kanan player, I absolutely hate seeing Carnor Jax or Old Teroch lined up on the other side. If I allow them to activate their abilities, I cannot activate mine. However it is not a NPE as their abilities are only at R1. Therefore, if I outplay my opponent, they cannot activate their abilities. Not a negative experience.
Back before the days of Autothrusters, PWT were a NPE - if you were an arc dodger, a PWT prevented you from playing your list the way it was designed to be played. However, due to the advent of AT, PWT now care about arcs against arc dodgers, and as such PWT are no longer a NPE. For non-arc dodging match ups, their lists are not designed to live and die by how evading arcs, but rather by their sheer jousting efficiency and dominate the PWT due to better power (or at least that's the theory).
Biggs is obnoxious and can make you feel helpless if you fly poorly against him - but you can arc dodge him, or take some ordnance against whomever he's protecting, or even just run into him so he's not a valid target. There are ways to neutralize Biggs, so he's not a NPE.
So, with that definition and those examples, I would consider the following NPE cards:
Kylo Ren crew
Boba Fett crew
Hot Shot Co-Pilot
That is all. As for the rationale - Kylo Ren crew (on Deci) can 100% lock down any 2 agility ship (or fewer) or rebel regen ship. The only way to avoid it is to double stress the Deci and hope Inspiring Recruit isn't somewhere in his list (blocking isn't an option since he can just use Dauntless to get a free action). Oh, and good luck getting that double stress as he'll just blind your stresshog so he can't shoot. The pilot version isn't a NPE - it's a scary ability, but I can avoid it by not shooting at the shuttle, or even use it to my advantage by shooting at the shuttle with a secondary priority target - now does your opponent shoot who they want to kill, or the guy with the condition card?.
Boba Fett crew is just obnoxious, especially for 1 point. He can 100% wreck your entire game plan - toss out your TLT on your 73 point Kanan, kill off R2D2 on your 49 point Regen Corran, eject Palpatine from the airlock on your 29 point shuttle, undoing your Alliance Overhaul on your ARC (serious talent there Mr. Fett!). All of these things just ruin how your list flies, and there's nothing you can do about it really (short of the obvious "git gud and don't allow that guy to shoot you." Thankfully he's rarely seen in play, though I don't understand why.
And then there's HSCP is getting some attention right now, and the way it forces you to spend your focus token is just jank against certain lists. Sure, there are plenty of people unaffected by it, but for all of those Poes out there that require that focus token, or those deadeye ordnance bombers - this is a huge FU.
There are other cards that are hard counters to lists that can be difficult to handle, but there's almost always an option to avoid it - it might be super difficult (try staying out of R1 of a good Jax player as a Ghost w/o EU) but there is a way to game plan for it and at least attempt to outfly your opponent to minimize the effectiveness of his list. But those above 3 things just take away all of your options and there's no real way to prevent them from happening.
Just one problem with your comment on Kylo blinding your stresshog/mule. R3A2 still works even when Blinded Pilot is dealt. It nowhere states you have to roll dice for it to work. And the Mule can just use gunner for the double stress and an attack (unless i am missing something)Oh, and good luck getting that double stress as he'll just blind your stresshog so he can't shoot.
That only works with old-deck Blinded Pilot, which requires you to line up a shot and then roll 0 dice for that shot to flip the card (then Gunner, BTL, etc.)
New-deck Blinded Pilot just makes you skip your next shooting opportunity, whether there's something to shoot at or not. But you skip the whole opportunity, so there's no chance to Gunner/BTL/etc.. Choose your damage deck wisely!
Dude. You totally forgot "Wampa"!Atc and backdraft
Those guys have arcs, though, and can be avoided through good play
Cheri? Nerp. No matter how well you fly, youll probably eat **** from an unavoidable die toss
ner that's something else entirely
that's "Have crit, do thing" not "generate crit"
for Kylo, you'd need like...winged gundark
...ew
Just one problem with your comment on Kylo blinding your stresshog/mule. R3A2 still works even when Blinded Pilot is dealt. It nowhere states you have to roll dice for it to work. And the Mule can just use gunner for the double stress and an attack (unless i am missing something)Oh, and good luck getting that double stress as he'll just blind your stresshog so he can't shoot.
That only works with old-deck Blinded Pilot, which requires you to line up a shot and then roll 0 dice for that shot to flip the card (then Gunner, BTL, etc.)
New-deck Blinded Pilot just makes you skip your next shooting opportunity, whether there's something to shoot at or not. But you skip the whole opportunity, so there's no chance to Gunner/BTL/etc.. Choose your damage deck wisely!
And before anyone does think about switching to the old deck to Gunner your way through Kylo Blinded Pilots... Injured Pilot remains a thing in that deck.
Give Wave Ten a chance before you dismiss some of it as a negative playing experience.
Boba Fett never sees play because he uses a vital slot for his faction, only works once, and requires you to deal a crit after shields (as opposed to Kylo who works through shields) which means by the time you use it on a ship which actually matters you're probably way closer to just blowing it up rather than just shed one of it's upgrades. Use that slot to make it more dead.
Also, I think calling Kylo a hard NPE is a bit rough - any ship with an EPT slot can elect to completely negate his ability. Determination is a 1 point EPT from the core set. Lists which don't adapt may have a hard time, but that is just in general the way of things. I think it's foolish to assume that the exact same iteration of a list should work through literally each new expansion to the game. We'll see how much play he gets though, how hard people actually find him.