What is the consensus on how much weight puts into cards/combos that introduce a negative play experience to players (particularly new players). The current wave 9 meta has a few cards/combos that lead to this, but I think wave 10 meta will have many more.

Things like:

• Zuckuss crew card in general.
• Dengaroo build
• Boshek crew card messing with opponents dial.
• Kylo crew causing double blinded pilot then PS 0 crits through shields. (meaning a ship potentially will not get to shoot for 3 rounds)
• Quadjumpers tractoring an ace, with the ace having no/minimal defense against it.
• And I'm sure there are others.

I'm not trying to make this be a rant filled thread but a discussion on the fact that there are more and more interactions in this amazing game that can cause these bad new player experiences.

Gotta define NPE

If it is just "stuff someone doesnt like", you wont have models to play with

If it is "stuff that actually subtracts player involvement from the game", we got a more concrete list

So not zuckuss or boshek, because those are just dice (player has no control) and a VERY involved player mechanic (guessing game)

actual npes would be

Primary weapon turrets, utterly unavoidable regardless of player decisions

Blinded pilot kylo, esp on an unavoidable PWT

And that is it

Stuff like tractor quads ARE THE EXACT OPPOSITE OF NPE

Because you, the player, get to and have to play around them

Those mechanics are actually avoidable and require thought to use and counter are the ecact opposite definition of npe because the players' inputs matter a lot

If you are wanting to introduce new players to the game, I say it's important to keep things to a really restricted list. For one, I try to keep the number of unique characters and upgrades down. Just fly a bunch of generic stuff at first. Get used to the core concepts and then work on other details. I even like sticking with iconic stuff for new players. Put down X-wings vs Tie Fighters. That's what people want to see if they are new.

After a few games, you can start to add in things like astromech cards and named pilots. Still, keep it pretty straight forward. Don't jump into the crazy stuff right away.

NPE is a term for designers and playtesters...

not for people who didn't have fun playing a game.

NPE is a term for designers and playtesters...

not for people who didn't have fun playing a game.

Errr...how is that? I don't get what you are talking about.

STAY AT HOME... PLAY AT HOME!!!

I am a BAMF GM; been running RPG's for over twenty years and as such I enjoy writing stories with my wonderful beloved little toy space ships.

I have more fun doing this and not cheating the simple little ways to make the game run as smooth as silk with an extremely high energy level and often surprises in every turn.

One of these days I am going to make some videos on this and share the love and the power of intelligent independance!

Dat MF-GLORY!!!

These cards do not inherently present negative play experiences to new players. Rather, it depends on how the entire experience plays out. If you're playing a newer player, my opinion is that you should use the game as a way to teach them and get more comfortable. It is not a time for target practice. As such, you should make certain that all your upgrade interactions are clear before you start the game. In the case of BoShek, let them know what it does and maybe even what to watch out for in your list. For Dengaroo, run through the timing and token passing shenanigans before the game starts to make sure they understand how it all works.

These things become negative play experiences when players are blind-sided by them without ever having been exposed to them before. Being patient and explaining how all your combos work goes a long way toward preventing a loss from being a negative play experience. I honestly believe that a negative play experience comes more from how a player behaves more than how the cards interact. I think players need to be more sensitive to other players. For example, let's say you put down Dengaroo and start playing. After the first combat phase, you notice your opponent looks a little put-off by what just happened. Now is the perfect time to ask, "Have you seen this build before?" or "How long have you been playing this game?" These questions will help you know what level your opponent is at. If they've never seen Dengaroo before, explain it then and there; don't wait to finish the game before you help them understand your build. If we want this game to continue growing (and I think that's in everyone's best interest), we need to stop treating every game like the final match of a regional championship and recognize that we have a duty to teach others who are newer to the game.

There is a huge difference in messing with people's dials (BoShek), screwing with dice (Zuckuss), or re-positioning strats (tractors) and flat out robbing them of the game. None of those prevent you from playing, they just make it difficult. The whole idea of a tactics game is make your opponent's decisions difficult.

PWT is the only thing i'd even remotely consider NPE since you 100% cant avoid it unless he does a dumb and lands on a rock. Mobile Arcs can be dodged, and i see it happen quite a bit, yet they retain the threat of potentially being shot at from any angle. I despise turrets because theyre so dumb-proof.

Why did i mention PWT after the first comment? By using a PWT you rob your opponent of any advanced flying tactics he might have by just existing. No dice are thrown to get a turn-long effect, no once only effects, flat out "i have a PWT so you cant dodge me" - which also forces your opponent to deal with said PWT first, completely robbing him of any priority decisions.

For me, I would say negative play experiences differ from player to player. Some new folks thrive on seeing whats out there. While others not so much. I think it's more frustrating for a new player when its difficult to shoot down an opposing ship or difficult avoid being shot at. These things can range from arc dodging (extra movement), extra action economy, regen, etc.

Off the top of my head, I would shy away from builds using cards such as (mentioning stuff that has been released):

Emperor Palpatine

Attanni Mindlink

Manaroo

Zuckuss

R3-A2

Biggs Darklighter

Twin Laser Turret

Autoblaster Turret/Cannon

Autothrusters

R2-D2/R5-P9

Tie/x7

Any Ion related mechanic

Any tractor beam mechanic

Any added opposing stress mechanic

Accuracy Corrector

Sensor Jammer

Juke

Crack Shot

NPE is a term for designers and playtesters...

not for people who didn't have fun playing a game.

Errr...how is that? I don't get what you are talking about.

OK does this help out?

" NPE should just be an industry term for those who design games and playtesters...

not for people who didn't have fun playing a game."

NPE is a term for designers and playtesters...

not for people who didn't have fun playing a game.

Errr...how is that? I don't get what you are talking about.

OK does this help out?

" NPE should just be an industry term for those who design games and playtesters...

not for people who didn't have fun playing a game."

I think you need to define NPE before you can make such a statement. English fully allows a player to have a negative experience (making it a negative player experience) without necessarily experiencing what a designer would call NPE.

I weary of seeing topics like these. When I started playing a few years ago and went to my first tournament, I lost every single game. Some games were close and some I lost badly, but I stuck in for the entire tournament. I didn't quit after a few losses or complain about it being unfair - I just chalked it up as a learning experience and moved forward. I hit a rut where it was frustrating and I wasn't winning, but eventually I started getting in the top half of the players and eventually won a small tournament.

I went to my first regional a month ago and un-ashamedly took Palp Defenders. I played with the list for only about a week before the regional - never really having flown Defenders in the past. I managed a Top 16 finish, losing my final few games to some much more experienced players - including someone running a list to mirror mine. He was simply more experienced with the list and better than me, making better decisions to get the win.

A few weeks after, the store I normally play at announced a tournament with choice of an Epic ship as a prize. I took the same list and managed to win, with one game very close that came down to the last round and me killing one of his ships to win based on points.

During that tournament, I played against somebody running Whisper and it was his first tournament. I reminded him once or twice when he didn't immediately decloak during the game. He managed to kill a Defender before I took out his list. When it was over, he asked me what I thought about his playing and what tips I might give him to help him get better. I shared some thoughts and pointed out some stuff he had missed and tactics that would have given him a better chance. I also dug into my box and gave him an extra acrylic cloak token I had. He was thankful and I felt like I had a new friend.

There were a few other relatively new players - who may not have realized what the competition was going to be like - that complained about paying $15 just to get their lists stomped.

We have a $5 tournament coming up where I plan to run a Tie striker list with some Ties and Tie/Fos in a mini swarm. I don't expect to be super competitive, but am running it for fun to see what I can do. I have encouraged some of the newer guys to come back - since this tournament should be less competitive and they will only sink in $5.

The whole point is - NEGATIVE play experience has a lot more to do with attitude than upgrades. You can lose and still have a positive gaming experience.

Yeah, I agree attitude is a big part. For me, I personally get the most negative play experiences from sore losers and winners. Also, players who are "sketchy" on their play to gain an advantage in the game.

Every game I loose is a negative play experience for me

I weary of seeing topics like these. When I started playing a few years ago and went to my first tournament, I lost every single game. Some games were close and some I lost badly, but I stuck in for the entire tournament. I didn't quit after a few losses or complain about it being unfair - I just chalked it up as a learning experience and moved forward. I hit a rut where it was frustrating and I wasn't winning, but eventually I started getting in the top half of the players and eventually won a small tournament.

...

The whole point is - NEGATIVE play experience has a lot more to do with attitude than upgrades. You can lose and still have a positive gaming experience.

Yes....but if you are trying to teach some brand new players that might not be invested into the game (or even bought any minis yet) and you curb stomp them, there could be some players that just won't take up the game due to having a negative play experience. They had a horrible time and don't find the game worth getting into. So, if you look at the OP's original post and about teaching new players....it makes sense.

I also know dozens of players that were never really interested in tournaments, but just playing for fun at the local store who did quit after a few months just because they didn't find it fun. They didn't like facing the tournament level lists. They had negative play experiences. They didn't want to get caught all up on the latest and greatest meta. They just wanted to fly some X-wings on a weekly basis.

For me, I would say negative play experiences differ from player to player. Some new folks thrive on seeing whats out there. While others not so much. I think it's more frustrating for a new player when its difficult to shoot down an opposing ship or difficult avoid being shot at. These things can range from arc dodging (extra movement), extra action economy, regen, etc.

Off the top of my head, I would shy away from builds using cards such as (mentioning stuff that has been released):

Emperor Palpatine

*snip*

Yes....but if you are trying to teach some brand new players that might not be invested into the game (or even bought any minis yet) and you curb stomp them, there could be some players that just won't take up the game due to having a negative play experience. They had a horrible time and don't find the game worth getting into. So, if you look at the OP's original post and about teaching new players....it makes sense.

I also know dozens of players that were never really interested in tournaments, but just playing for fun at the local store who did quit after a few months just because they didn't find it fun. They didn't like facing the tournament level lists. They had negative play experiences. They didn't want to get caught all up on the latest and greatest meta. They just wanted to fly some X-wings on a weekly basis.

NPE is a term for designers and playtesters...

not for people who didn't have fun playing a game.

Errr...how is that? I don't get what you are talking about.

OK does this help out?

" NPE should just be an industry term for those who design games and playtesters...

not for people who didn't have fun playing a game."

I think you need to define NPE before you can make such a statement. English fully allows a player to have a negative experience (making it a negative player experience) without necessarily experiencing what a designer would call NPE.

OK, I'm not talking about the english language or what it allows, just stating my opinion. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

Please understand that I'm NOT in opposition to ANYONE'S posts in this thread. It's my opinion that the designers should have to deal with "NPE" and the consumer should deal with the "fun-level"... I see/hear it a lot lately and I just feel it should be a term for the industry.

But by all means feel free to use the term.

• Kylo crew causing double blinded pilot then PS 0 crits through shields. (meaning a ship potentially will not get to shoot for 3 rounds)

not shooting for 2-3 turns is pretty close to balanced compared to what can happen when Lt. Colzet shows up in a Kylo list.

For me, I would say negative play experiences differ from player to player. Some new folks thrive on seeing whats out there. While others not so much. I think it's more frustrating for a new player when its difficult to shoot down an opposing ship or difficult avoid being shot at. These things can range from arc dodging (extra movement), extra action economy, regen, etc.

Off the top of my head, I would shy away from builds using cards such as (mentioning stuff that has been released):

Emperor Palpatine

*snip*

My very first match was a team epic (with no epic ships) which i was pretty much on my own, my teammate did help me start but other than that i was alone, and palp was in my opponent's list, and i wouldn't call it a NPE, heck i won the match (though to be fair, i was using original han with Luke and chewy crew)

Kudos for you. Glad you had a good play experience with this. Emperor Palpatine impact tends to scale downwards in larger point games.

They didn't like facing the tournament level lists. They had negative play experiences.

The thing is though, that's an issue of the community and not the game itself.

I completely get that some people just want to go pew pew with Luke, Wedge and Biggs vs some Tie Fighters, and for those people playing against things like Phantoms or Palp-aces or ect... May not be the experience they're looking for.

But that is again not an issue with the game, that's an issue with expectations and communication... There's nothing inherently wrong with playing the current meta hotness, and for some people that's how they enjoy the game, their enjoyment is no more or less valid or important than anyone else's. The casual player has no special rights to expect people to play they want to.

So if that's the kind of game they're looking for, but the people at the LGS aren't playing that way. They need to either adapt to how people play, or better yet start some sort of casual game night or league or something, where they can play how they like.

What they can't do is expect everyone else to quit playing how they want, and cater to the casual only type.

Of course curb stomping a newbie is most likely going to have the effect of turning someone off from the game. But that is again an issue of community and not mechanics.

The issue is that NPE generally has a meaning, that being something is actually wrong with the game that impacts the enjoyment someone has, it means something is OP'ed or in some way broken, it doesn't just mean that someone didn't have fun.

Far too often people try to use the term as if it were an objective thing, that by simply declaring X a NPE the argument is over, rather than it simply being a matter of opinion.

For me, I would say negative play experiences differ from player to player. Some new folks thrive on seeing whats out there. While others not so much. I think it's more frustrating for a new player when its difficult to shoot down an opposing ship or difficult avoid being shot at. These things can range from arc dodging (extra movement), extra action economy, regen, etc.

Off the top of my head, I would shy away from builds using cards such as (mentioning stuff that has been released):

Emperor Palpatine

*snip*

My very first match was a team epic (with no epic ships) which i was pretty much on my own, my teammate did help me start but other than that i was alone, and palp was in my opponent's list, and i wouldn't call it a NPE, heck i won the match (though to be fair, i was using original han with Luke and chewy crew)

Kudos for you. Glad you had a good play experience with this. Emperor Palpatine impact tends to scale downwards in larger point games.

Sweet

And there is no "NPE" cards involved. Just atitude betwen a new and a experienced players (or betwen a cassual and a hi-competitive one).

Ahh....I think I understand the distinction. Yes, I agree that no single card or pilot is a Negative Play Experience card. I agree with that. I do think the concept of a Negative Play Experience is totally valid as a player in the game. In fact, I've seen a number of people get into the game and drop out due to NPE. It's not due to a particular card or upgrade, but it is due to a particular style of play.

They didn't like facing the tournament level lists. They had negative play experiences.

The thing is though, that's an issue of the community and not the game itself.

I completely get that some people just want to go pew pew with Luke, Wedge and Biggs vs some Tie Fighters, and for those people playing against things like Phantoms or Palp-aces or ect... May not be the experience they're looking for.

But that is again not an issue with the game, that's an issue with expectations and communication... There's nothing inherently wrong with playing the current meta hotness, and for some people that's how they enjoy the game, their enjoyment is no more or less valid or important than anyone else's. The casual player has no special rights to expect people to play they want to.

Of course curb stomping a newbie is most likely going to have the effect of turning someone off from the game. But that is again an issue of community and not mechanics.

The issue is that NPE generally has a meaning, that being something is actually wrong with the game that impacts the enjoyment someone has, it means something is OP'ed or in some way broken, it doesn't just mean that someone didn't have fun.

Far too often people try to use the term as if it were an objective thing, that by simply declaring X a NPE the argument is over, rather than it simply being a matter of opinion.

Yes yes yes....I do agree with above. It is a community issue. I still say it's a Negative Play Experience, though.

I remember threads on these very forums about a year or two ago where I was shouted down by multiple people that if I didn't want to play the top tournament meta type lists then maybe X-wing isn't the game for me. There was "real X-wing" and then there was all the dirty casual players who lurked in garages and basements like mole people.

Yes, it is a community thing, but I still say FFG doesn't do much to promote an alternative to tournament games.