I guess we have different views of what makes an interesting character. I prefer heroes who are human enough to fall to despair and climb back out of it.

On 1/12/2018 at 2:42 AM, Sunrider said:

It is - if there are no known Hyperspace lanes leading to Ahch-To anymore. The planet has been forgotten for thousands of years. Hyperspace lanes are not static, they change - that's why Astrogational data has to be updated regularly. So, the route to Ahch-To has probably broken a long time ago and had to be plotted anew. So, the beginning is worthless without the starting point.

Anakin declined wiping R2s memory as he wanted 'his personality to develop'. But I don't think C3-PO had one either - as we see in the Poe Dameron comics, there's even a backup-copy of his primary memory chip at D'Quar.

On 1/12/2018 at 4:09 AM, LordBritish said:

CP3O was memory wiped at the end of episode 3. Bail Ogarma expressively stated to wipe their memories and pass them on to his service.

Admittedly I can't remember whether it was just CP3O or whether that included R2; I imagine part of it was to ensure the droid didn't recognise the Jedi, while the audience couldn't understand R2 so it was less important. While the golden toaster was probably the kind of droid who would spill his theoretical guts at the slightest interrogation.

On 1/12/2018 at 9:19 PM, LordBritish said:

I do agree with Finn's character; he is literally the character who can't do anything of his own free will. Which is a shame considering I feel he is a good actor, but is essentially stuck with the role of being the steriotypical clueless guy that makes quips about being a Janitor; he is a trained stormtrooper, why can't that show through more often? Why does he have to be everyones sidekick?

Besides Finn's adventure accomplished one thing; it actually gave perspective to the republic's stance on the new order and ironically, there seems to be a gross indifference toward the new order by the corporate elite, bordering on full on supporting the new establishment. That there actually seems to be elements of the shattered republic that have (had?) strongly supported the new order both financially and with equipment. Furthermore the lack of response to a distress call was very telling; no one was interested in helping the resistance at that point.

It seems that the best way of saving the Republic is doing away with the republic entirely as it seems a lot of members of the republic are actively collaborating with the empire, if Leia's book and the indications in episode 8 were anything to go by.. One of my characters plot points is that, having at this point fought the empire and the s for 3 years, has become steadfast in that the only good empire is no Empire, and thus the Republics settling for soft peace after it's key members have achieved their own small agenda's is an abomination for him. I can see him being a blight on the republican peace treaty for a long time after that.

Too political? Star Wars has a trend of making observations on the war's such as in return of the Jedi paralleling Vietnam. If people were as passionate about it's politics as their hobbies, the world would be quite a interesting place. I cannot stand the political environment of today and I think very strong revisions must be made if society is to advance forward into a true space age.

Why is it an assumption? Senator Orgama said that their memories would be wiped and no evidence suggests otherwise. As en-cumbersome as Lucas can be, it's not like him to include something without intent to further his narrative. In CP30's case, his memory of Padme and Tatooine would be a liability given how vocal he is.

On 1/12/2018 at 9:34 PM, Nytwyng said:

Just a point of clarification: there's no "their" there. Bail specifically stated to "...have the protocol droid's mind wiped."

Yep, it was ponly 3PO who had his memory wiped; and for very good reasons. Threepio is not very good at keeping secrets. In fact, he's terrible at it. By contrast, R2 is excellent at keeping secrets.

When I was young I liked Luke because I believed he was perfect, when I grew up I liked him because he was flawed.

45 minutes ago, DaverWattra said:

becoming an inspiring presence and leader within the Resistance

Considering how things went with his teaching career, I think it's pretty clear why he didn't go for that particular option. I don't think he considered himself very inspiring.

Consider the fact that when Ben went to the other students and told them that Master Skywalker tried to kill him in his sleep, a non-zero amount of them apparently went "huh, yeah, that seems like something that could happen". What the heck did he do?

9 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

I guess we have different views of what makes an interesting character. I prefer heroes who are human enough to fall to despair and climb back out of it.

Me too, and in a sense I think that's a big part of what happened to Luke, but people (especially Jedi knights) don't just say to themselves "I fell into despair and gave up." People need some story about why their decision was right. They need some way to rationalize their actions as serving the greater good, even if objectively their choice was wrong. Luke's rationalization is that the Jedi need to die, because (as he pretty much says early in the movie) he's become convinced that Jedi teachings don't work and the Jedi Order is just a feeder school for the dark side. This explains why he didn't train any more Jedi after Ben's fall, but it doesn't fully explain why Luke stayed out of the fight against the First Order himself unless you assume he was worried about falling to the dark side himself.

1 minute ago, penpenpen said:

Consider the fact that when Ben went to the other students and told them that Master Skywalker tried to kill him in his sleep, a non-zero amount of them apparently went "huh, yeah, that seems like something that could happen". What the heck did he do?

That wasn't how I interpreted the story. Ben corrupted those students and turned them to the dark side in some way, but I doubt it was as simple as telling them Luke tried to kill him. He might have been manipulating them with Snoke's help for years before that moment. Perhaps the students had already broken into Ben's faction on the one side, and the students loyal to Luke on the other side.

14 minutes ago, DaverWattra said:

This explains why he didn't train any more Jedi after Ben's fall, but it doesn't fully explain why Luke stayed out of the fight against the First Order himself unless you assume he was worried about falling to the dark side himself.

He had just come to the conclusion that his entire life's work was all a huge mistake. He'd not just failed himself and Ben, he'd also caused the death of his other students (in his mind), and lost Han & Leia (because how could he face them after all that?).

That's exactly the sort of thing that completely wrecks a person.

It's not that he hid from what you see as his duty (fighting the First Order), it's that he felt not competent to fulfill it. He felt the Jedi, including him, were a liability, not an asset, to the galaxy.

6 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

He had just come to the conclusion that his entire life's work was all a huge mistake. He'd not just failed himself and Ben, he'd also caused the death of his other students (in his mind), and lost Han & Leia (because how could he face them after all that?).

That's exactly the sort of thing that completely wrecks a person.

It's not that he hid from what you see as his duty (fighting the First Order), it's that he felt not competent to fulfill it. He felt the Jedi, including him, were a liability, not an asset, to the galaxy.

Exactly. And the reason why Jedi are a liability, as Luke says when he's first telling Rey why he thinks the Jedi have to end, is because Jedi have a bad tendency to turn to the dark side. So if Luke felt he was a liability, that's probably because he was worried that he might turn himself.

1 hour ago, SEApocalypse said:

No, seriously, he invited us in a private chat and ask us about our opinion about you and how to express it the best way. Though I am just a hairless ape, not a flying monkey.

That's not what I heard but I'm not judging.

Just now, DaverWattra said:

Exactly. And the reason why Jedi are a liability, as Luke says when he's first telling Rey why he thinks the Jedi have to end, is because Jedi have a bad tendency to turn to the dark side. So if Luke felt he was a liability, that's probably because he was worried that he might turn himself.

Or because he'd only get people killed for no good reason. The way he got his other students killed.

1 hour ago, DaverWattra said:

That wasn't how I interpreted the story. Ben corrupted those students and turned them to the dark side in some way, but I doubt it was as simple as telling them Luke tried to kill him. He might have been manipulating them with Snoke's help for years before that moment. Perhaps the students had already broken into Ben's faction on the one side, and the students loyal to Luke on the other side.

The smiley was there to indicate a slight level of sarcasm.

As we don't know exactly how literal Snoke's influence was it's hard to discuss it. There's literally one line to go from.

That said... if Kylo manipulated his fellow students into what is essentially a darkside cult under Luke's nose, that doesn't reflect to well on him as a teacher either.

On 1/13/2018 at 9:20 AM, Donovan Morningfire said:

That seems to be the running trend, that it takes a second viewing to really appreciate what Rian Johnson did.

That's not saying the film is without flaws (I agree with Canto Bight and felt it could have been trimmed down substantially), but majority of folks that are willing to give the flick a second viewing come to find that it's not nearly as bad as the internet trolls would have one believe.

My own take on this is that a lot of folks went into TLJ with expectations they built up, knowingly or not, over the two year period between TFA and TLJ. And when a lot of those expectations were dashed (no big reveal on Snoke, Rey not having a super-special legacy, the Resistance getting its hindquarters kicked, Luke no longer being the all-loving ideal Jesus allegory he was in the original trilogy), that lead to a bad first impression.

Myself, I generally deep-six any expectations I might have of a film and can accept that the film I'm watching is the director's film, not mine. So that's probably while I had issues with TLJ, none of it marred my enjoyment of the movie on the first viewing.

****, agreeing with Donovan again. I think pretty much every movie made now is too long, so if you want to cut down Canto Blight, it's fine with me.

I do wonder people have such trouble with Leia using a force power. She's had 30 years. Like the filming of the scene or not, it's not out of the realm of possibility.

5 hours ago, DaverWattra said:

Again, I'm not saying those emotions can't influence him, but it's an incredibly serious lapse in judgement for a Jedi to abandon the galaxy in its hour of need, so Luke's decision requires an equally serious justification to explain it. There needs to be some factor that he could conceivably see as a good reason for him to go into exile rather than do what he can to help Leia.

Yep.

A Jedi wouldn't hide out on a backwater desert planet, abandoning the galaxy in its hour of need.

Nor would the Jedi Master hinted to be the most powerful ever flee to a deserted swamp world and hide in the shadow of a dark side nexus.

Luke followed the examples set by his teachers: frak up and send yourself into exile.

Jedi are so emo. **** the galaxy, I'mma go sulk in a corner!

So I can’t remember if it was this thread or another but there was a discussion of hyperspace travel and questions as to what is possible.

Warning: Minor Spoiler Content from Rogue One’s prequel novel to follow.

Per the new canon in Catalyst; A Rogue One Novel, in-system microjumps are possible, and trivial. Both sides use the jumps to attack each other around the Salient System. In fact, a capital ship piloted ala a drone is used to open the engagement.

With this canon and that of the TLJ we might see potential hyperspace capable, microjumping drone ships as weapons in future installments. That is, unless they can explain away the possibility by introducing a counter.

Who know what that might look like? Maybe a localized Micro-Gravity Well generator that prevents hyperspace within a small cordon around capital ships powered by excess hypermatter from a ships drives? On either side of the “hyperspace-as-weapon-divide” I think we could welcome some nod to why this tactic is not employed more substantially beyond the postulations around cost/benefit analyses and scientific limitations/lucky applications.

Leaving this an a viable last ditch effort might also be fine to some, like a more powerful version of (don’t hate me for the reference in this setting) “Perhaps today is a good day to die! Ramming Speed!” (Worf aboard the Defiant, Star Trek: First Contact) But having extra possible solutions to presented problems then causes writers to have to insert a “why didn’t we just do X.” Type statement. Again, I’m sure some are fine filling in those gaps themselves and enjoying the content without, but it is still an unrealized option.

I still don’t get how people feel the First Order should have changed a working tactic.

They were 2 for 3 and about to destroy the last ship as well...not a single tactician would change that approach.

2 hours ago, DanteRotterdam said:

I still don’t get how people feel the First Order should have changed a working tactic.

They were 2 for 3 and about to destroy the last ship as well...not a single tactician would change that approach.

Well, the First Order did suggest it, in the form of Ade Edmondson's character, but Hux overruled, as the tactic was working.

13 hours ago, Khazadune said:

Both sides use the jumps to attack each other around the Salient System.

And in the old Jedi Council comic 'Acts of War' they use a microjump to jump 'around' a planet while just outside its gravity well. "It's definitly possible - just not recommended!"

Hyperspace has been like rubber all along - one author bent it one way, the other stretched it another.

When it comes to microjumping to gain on the Resistance: Maybe the FO was not inclined to take the risk of jumping into another ship?

4 hours ago, Sunrider said:

When it comes to microjumping to gain on the Resistance: Maybe the FO was not inclined to take the risk of jumping into another ship?

You think? What is the worst that could happen … ah wait.

Moviebob's mic drop on The Last Jedi:

On 1/13/2018 at 5:23 PM, splad said:

I'm just underscoring that this scenario where Luke has a rage fest over his sleeping nephew while he can forgive his mass murdering father is just bad writing

You do realize that the event in question (and the telling of how it went down) is textbook Unreliable Narrator, right? Luke has his story, Ben has his story and the truth is something else entirely.

If you had a time machine would you go back and kill Hitler before he came to power and committed some of the worst atrocities this world has ever seen?

This seems to be the option that Luke faced in Ben/Kylo, when he realized how Dark he was. Faced with the option of stopping something like his father before it began, he was momentarily tempted, but in the end decided not to. Too late, unfortunately.

Such is life.

38 minutes ago, Desslok said:

Moviebob's mic drop on The Last Jedi:

Dam* you penguin! You keep ninjaing me about posting those! *shakes fist*

10 hours ago, DanteRotterdam said:

I still don’t get how people feel the First Order should have changed a working tactic.

They were 2 for 3 and about to destroy the last ship as well...not a single tactician would change that approach.

I didn’t try to post that to criticize the movie, although it might open the door, that’s another argument entirely. More so I just wanted to discuss the implications of these being two canon sources that now allow for hyperspace weapons to be possible.

18 minutes ago, Khazadune said:

I didn’t try to post that to criticize the movie, although it might open the door, that’s another argument entirely. More so I just wanted to discuss the implications of these being two canon sources that now allow for hyperspace weapons to be possible.

I wouldn't call the suicide ramming a "hyperspace weapon" so much as someone making practical use of an aspect of hyperspace travel that was established back in New Hope. Han tells Luke quite clearly that they need precise calculations or they will run into stuff. That's basically all she did, she plotted a jump course directly through objects, namely the fleet.