13 minutes ago, Khazadune said:

17 minutes ago, Khazadune said:

Just because the same couple of guys dogpile on anyone with a difference of opinion with regards to this movie

That's an opinion, sure.

16 hours ago, DaverWattra said:

After sitting back while the First Order commits more than a decade worth of atrocities?

They didn't - at least not publicly. Just before TFA, the Resistance was FORBIDDEN to engage in open hostility with the FO by the NR. And the FO danced around any conflict by using proxies and concentrating on backwater worlds.

What could Luke do about that? Go and kill Snoke all by himself? As we have seen - that wouldn't have changed anything. A lot more logical than the RotJ ending, where the death of the Emperor and Vader seem to suffice to lay the whole Empire to waste.

6 hours ago, SEApocalypse said:

Didn't Luke not literally fall to the dark side and needed rescue from Leia?

Two times, if iirc. And one time he even fell to something different (Shadows of Mindor). He seems a bit easy to sway ...

6 hours ago, Ghostofman said:

World Devastators are actually some of the better superweapons of the week that came out in that period.

So, you didn't like the Sun Crusher?

11 hours ago, Cifer said:

"Go out there and face the whole First Order with a laser sword" is nothing against "The force: You can move rocks and trick people's minds with it."

Yeah, but that one was flagged enough that I caught it on first viewing.

11 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

Sure, sure.

We spoke and had a consensus.

What, you and the flying monkeys?

19 hours ago, DaverWattra said:

It's not the most implausible thing in the world, but I think it's worth trying to develop a reading of the movie according to which Luke is not a terrible person. Letting the neo-Nazis rise to power when you're the one person with the skills to stop them, simply because of shame and bitterness... if that's the only explanation, then I do have a lot of sympathy for the Not My Luke crowd. Whatever his flaws, Luke is ultimately a hero. Shame over one highly understandable lapse is not by itself going to keep him from saving innocent lives.

Well, consider Luke's point of view. His one great victory as a Jedi, redeeming his father, turned out to be more or less inconsequential to the battle that toppled the Empire in the grand scheme of things, and the last time he tried to help the galaxy by being a Jedi, his mistakes created the new dark lord.

It's perfectly valid to read in shame, and even cowardice in Luke's reluctance to act, but there's also a somewhat well-founded caution. If he takes action, what says he won't make things worse? And from his point of view, what is he supposed to do? Kill Ben? That would be doubling down on his original mistake.

Of course, it's a fair argument that things can't get any worse but consider:

1. Luke doesn't know anything about what the First Order has been up to until Rey and Chewie tell him when he is well set in his ways. And after talking to R2, he does decide to take action by training Rey.

2. The possibility of Darth Luke.

Quote

Strike me down and your journey to the dark side will be complete.

I think Luke should be well aware of the possibility of taking the "necessary evil" action of killing Kylo Ren being the thing that pushes himself over to the dark side. Establishing himself as the peacekeeper of the galaxy would be a constant temptation to always be a little more proactive in his duties, which, when you have a measure of precognition, is a great slippery slope to justifying killing children in their sleep. The Jedi's participation in galactic politics led them astray before, pushing Anakin ahead of them. Luke is probably quite wary of making the same mistake.

I don't think he sees himself as "the one person with the skills to stop them", rather as the one person with the power the make things even worse.

I think this is part of his reasoning why he chooses to finally take action the way he does. Chances are that him killing Kylo, or Kylo killing him, would make things worse. So he devises a way where neither is a possibility, and instead manages to reaffirm his own legend with a message of unequivocal hope.

Showing up and killing Kylo would also have given fodder to the idea that the Jedi were a morally superior world police that would show and punish those who didn't toe the line. While the First Order might be beyond that level of propaganda at this point, it's always nice not make the same mistakes as your predecessors.

Of course, one can argue that this is overstating Luke's importance, and that's definitely a possibility, but could also in line with Luke's own reasoning. He feels that it was hubris of him to think he could train Ben Solo, and it turned out to be right as he created a menace to the galaxy. His regret from this might cloud the fact that he is still suffering from hubris, overstating his own importance and thus the magnitude of the possible consequences of him taking action. Personally, given the ending, I think, if anything, he was underestimating his own importance.

11 hours ago, Nytwyng said:

What “rage fest?”

Luke saw irredeemable darkness in Ben. For about five seconds, he considered killing him, then (here’s the point you’re choosing to ignore in your insistence that it’s “bad writing”) thought better of it.

If there’s any “rage fest” in Luke’s onscreen narrative, it’s in the minutes that he hammered away at dear ol’ dad before reining himself in.

So, please explain how it’s out of character for Luke. Explain this “paradigm.”

It is much more than a lack of judgement on Luke's side, it is just plain and simple bad writing. To have Luke in what looks like a calculated move after seeing into Kylo's mind and seeing nothing but blackness then decides it may be best for the greater good to just kill him. So he premeditated with weapon poised he considers striking down Ben. This is so bad on so many points. That no mental checks and balances were done to mitigate this situation.

Firstly in ROTJ he was provoked, young and desperate before he even used his anger but still after that final taunt of Vaders he pulled it back and chose the high road. Their was none of this here, all he saw was darkness the corruption yet he still saved Anakin after all he did an Ben had yet to do a single thing, this is a vast over reaction for his character to do something of that kind.

Secondly it is his nephew the child of his sister and best friend. To even consider that is so contrary to the Luke of the original trilogy. He fought for his family. Tried to protect them, sacrificed himself as decoy to Vader in hopes focus would be on him and not that of his sister and still with purpose in mind to redeem his father. Yet he would stand ready to kill his blood without even a conversation.

All i can see is such a deviation of the Luke character i knew also with the year of experience did not temper him to react with a wiser course. Going by your perception of Luke he did fail Ben on so many levels, Master, Uncle and friend.

Even Mark Hamil had such strong reservations that we have all heard on this point, he played it as a completely different Luke. Jake Skywalker. This is because Luke of the OT would not have done this.

29 minutes ago, splad said:

It is much more than a lack of judgement on Luke's side, it is just plain and simple bad writing. To have Luke in what looks like a calculated move after seeing into Kylo's mind and seeing nothing but blackness then decides it may be best for the greater good to just kill him. So he premeditated with weapon poised he considers striking down Ben. This is so bad on so many points. That no mental checks and balances were done to mitigate this situation.

Firstly in ROTJ he was provoked, young and desperate before he even used his anger but still after that final taunt of Vaders he pulled it back and chose the high road. Their was none of this here, all he saw was darkness the corruption yet he still saved Anakin after all he did an Ben had yet to do a single thing, this is a vast over reaction for his character to do something of that kind.

Secondly it is his nephew the child of his sister and best friend. To even consider that is so contrary to the Luke of the original trilogy. He fought for his family. Tried to protect them, sacrificed himself as decoy to Vader in hopes focus would be on him and not that of his sister and still with purpose in mind to redeem his father. Yet he would stand ready to kill his blood without even a conversation.

All i can see is such a deviation of the Luke character i knew also with the year of experience did not temper him to react with a wiser course. Going by your perception of Luke he did fail Ben on so many levels, Master, Uncle and friend.

Even Mark Hamil had such strong reservations that we have all heard on this point, he played it as a completely different Luke. Jake Skywalker. This is because Luke of the OT would not have done this.

So, your argument, distilled is that it’s “bad writing” because - as is in his established character - he had a bad impulse and overcame that impulse in a matter of seconds?

It’s even possible to counter your argument using your own words...that in those few seconds, what you put forth is exactly what went through his mind and made him reconsider.

Further, the only thing “premeditated” was Luke’s decision to look into Ben’s nature...to check the level of darkness he’d already sensed in a moment there was unlikely to be any conscious obfuscation from Ben. Yet you continue to put forth the (incorrect) notion that Luke walked into that hut with the intent to kill Ben.

You didn’t like it. That’s fair. That doesn’t make it “bad writing.” And it certainly doesn’t make it a “rage fest.”

2 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

So, your argument, distilled is that it’s “bad writing” because - as is in his established character - he had a bad impulse and overcame that impulse in a matter of seconds?

It’s even possible to counter your argument using your own words...that in those few seconds, what you put forth is exactly what went through his mind and made him reconsider.

Further, the only thing “premeditated” was Luke’s decision to look into Ben’s nature...to check the level of darkness he’d already sensed in a moment there was unlikely to be any conscious obfuscation from Ben. Yet you continue to put forth the (incorrect) notion that Luke walked into that hut with the intent to kill Ben.

You didn’t like it. That’s fair. That doesn’t make it “bad writing.” And it certainly doesn’t make it a “rage fest.”

You're entitled to your opinion and i mine. Never the twain shall meet.

1 hour ago, splad said:

You're entitled to your opinion and i mine. Never the twain shall meet.

Correct. Because one is formed from what is objectively on screen. The other is yours.

11 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

Correct. Because one is formed from what is objectively on screen. The other is yours.

Pathetic. Can't be a gentleman and just disagree you have to be some toxic nonce. Go back to your pail Oscar

8 hours ago, Sunrider said:

What could Luke do about that? Go and kill Snoke all by himself? As we have seen - that wouldn't have changed anything. A lot more logical than the RotJ ending, where the death of the Emperor and Vader seem to suffice to lay the whole Empire to waste.

It's funny, I was just talking with a military historian the other day about this. People like the idea of a single pivotal battle that resolves everything and wins the war, but that never ever happens. Even in Star Wars and it's fantasy like undertones one battle never quite does it. Even the death of the Emperor and collapse of the Empire doesn't bring peace, it just puts the Empire in decline and it reorganizes into the first order.

8 hours ago, Sunrider said:

So, you didn't like the Sun Crusher?

Guh, talk about a Mary Sue...

/Nerdvoice:

"So, in a super duper secret facility that's surrounded by black holes, an Imperial Admiral, who is also a hot chick, has a spaceship the size of one of those vans with a sweet wizard painted on the side. This spaceship is totally invincible, and so powerful it destroys entire solar systems."

World Devistators were powerful, but at least at the end of the day they were just fancy mining ships.

49 minutes ago, splad said:

Pathetic. Can't be a gentleman and just disagree you have to be some toxic nonce. Go back to your pail Oscar

Sure, I can be a gentleman and disagree. For starters, I don’t declare that no “true fan” would enjoy a movie just because I didn’t, or those that do are “lesser fans.”

But, if someone is going to willfully ignore the 40 year screen history of a character in order to make an objective statement (“bad writing”) about an element of a movie that he didn’t like? Yeah...I’m going to say so.

2 hours ago, Ghostofman said:

It's funny, I was just talking with a military historian the other day about this. People like the idea of a single pivotal battle that resolves everything and wins the war, but that never ever happens. Even in Star Wars and it's fantasy like undertones one battle never quite does it. Even the death of the Emperor and collapse of the Empire doesn't bring peace, it just puts the Empire in decline and it reorganizes into the first order.

Guh, talk about a Mary Sue...

/Nerdvoice:

"So, in a super duper secret facility that's surrounded by black holes, an Imperial Admiral, who is also a hot chick, has a spaceship the size of one of those vans with a sweet wizard painted on the side. This spaceship is totally invincible, and so powerful it destroys entire solar systems."

World Devistators were powerful, but at least at the end of the day they were just fancy mining ships.

Their were so many Super Weapons that the Legends Star Wars time line put out their. I feel they kind of exhausted it. Also they kind of not satisfied with the world devastators they had to throw a Super Weapon on the Eclipse as well.

@splad

I really don't think "premeditated" means what you think it means, because it's the exact opposite of what Luke did: He didn't rationally think things through, as can be seen by how he immediately tries to abandon the action before going through with it. We can talk about whether Luke should have taken some time between sensing Kylo's darkness and igniting his lightsaber to search his own feelings and be rational about things. But saying that this was not an (aborted) crime of passion does not fit with the events of the movie.

3 minutes ago, Cifer said:

@splad

I really don't think "premeditated" means what you think it means, because it's the exact opposite of what Luke did: He didn't rationally think things through, as can be seen by how he immediately tries to abandon the action before going through with it. We can talk about whether Luke should have taken some time between sensing Kylo's darkness and igniting his lightsaber to search his own feelings and be rational about things. But saying that this was not an (aborted) crime of passion does not fit with the events of the movie.

It doesn't balance with what allot of people thought of Luke. While i consider your point i think a timeline of the scene would help. We got to see the scene in what three versions.

3 hours ago, penpenpen said:

Of course, it's a fair argument that things can't get any worse but consider:

1. Luke doesn't know anything about what the First Order has been up to until Rey and Chewie tell him when he is well set in his ways. And after talking to R2, he does decide to take action by training Rey.

2. The possibility of Darth Luke.

I think Luke should be well aware of the possibility of taking the "necessary evil" action of killing Kylo Ren being the thing that pushes himself over to the dark side. Establishing himself as the peacekeeper of the galaxy would be a constant temptation to always be a little more proactive in his duties, which, when you have a measure of precognition, is a great slippery slope to justifying killing children in their sleep. The Jedi's participation in galactic politics led them astray before, pushing Anakin ahead of them. Luke is probably quite wary of making the same mistake.

Yes! If you look back a couple pages in the thread, this is exactly the view I was defending! Quoting myself:

35 minutes ago, splad said:

It doesn't balance with what allot of people thought of Luke. While i consider your point i think a timeline of the scene would help. We got to see the scene in what three versions.

And what, exactly, did “a lot of people think of Luke,” and how did that compare with how Luke has actually been portrayed on screen over the course of 40 years?

5 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

And what, exactly, did “a lot of people think of Luke,” and how did that compare with how Luke has actually been portrayed on screen over the course of 40 years?

I've already stated the objection I had and it echoed the sentiment of 'allot of people' if you wish to re-read what I have posted go for it. But I'm not rehashing the same point again. We don't agree end of story.

44 minutes ago, DaverWattra said:

Yes! If you look back a couple pages in the thread, this is exactly the view I was defending! Quoting myself:

Then Stan and Nytwyng objected that this was baloney, that obviously Luke was just ashamed of his mistakes and concern about falling to the dark side had nothing to do with his decision to abandon his post. That's when I started arguing that their picture of Luke, as motivated only by shame and disappointment in himself, was not heroic enough to fit with Luke's established character.

So I agree with what you say here completely. Luke was afraid of falling to the dark side himself if he went after the First Order, and that's why he ran. That's been my view all along. (Of course he was also ashamed of himself, but shame by itself would not have been enough to stop Luke Skywalker from helping Leia in her fight to save the galaxy.)

Then again, Luke falling to the dark side is not the only way he could make things worse. Consider if he just fails and gets killed by the new order, rather than fading away in obscurity. That is a huge propaganda victory.

Or even if he succeeds by killing Kylo, but still doesn't fall. Then he has just killed his nephew who went off the rails because Luke pushed him. Luke's failure would be complete. Remember, Luke initially refused to face Vader once he found out he was his father, and only relented when he felt he was endangering Leia, Han and the rebellion. And even the, he only drew his saber when actively goaded by the Emperor, and only seriously going on the offense against Vader when Leia was threatened.

Now, how do you think the same man would feel about facing his nephew, someone he has likely known since birth and, in Luke's mind, only fell because Luke failed him. The man who until his back was utterly to the wall refused to fight his father, despite his father being an unrepentant mass murderer he had never known, who fell before Luke's birth. I think he hoped Leia or Han eventually could reach, and save, Ben, because he realizes that he's burned his bridge to that option himself. He might even assume (quite rightly) that Ben would be conflicted about opposing his parents, and if Luke confronted him and failed, Kylo's heart would have been hardened enough to be beyond redemption.

Of course, finding out about Han must have made him rethink this. It is, after all, after finding this out he expresses doubt about redeeming Kylo.

I'm not really taking sides in discussion, merely presenting my own thoughts. FWIW, Luke simply being ashamed of his action is enough justification for me. But it doesn't have to be just the one reason, they're not really mutually exclusive.

40 minutes ago, penpenpen said:

Now, how do you think the same man would feel about facing his nephew, someone he has likely known since birth and, in Luke's mind, only fell because Luke failed him. The man who until his back was utterly to the wall refused to fight his father, despite his father being an unrepentant mass murderer he had never known, who fell before Luke's birth. I think he hoped Leia or Han eventually could reach, and save, Ben, because he realizes that he's burned his bridge to that option himself. He might even assume (quite rightly) that Ben would be conflicted about opposing his parents, and if Luke confronted him and failed, Kylo's heart would have been hardened enough to be beyond redemption.

Sure, I'm not saying Luke should have gone off to fight Kylo, or even try to redeem him. But there are any number of things he might have done to help, including just becoming an inspiring presence and leader within the Resistance--which means he made a big mistake running to Ahch-To, and we need an explanation of that mistake that fits with Luke's overall character displayed in the OT. In my opinion, "He was just ashamed and bitter" is not a good enough explanation. "He was afraid that joining the fight might do more harm than good," on the other hand, is good enough for me.

Luke displayed shame and bitterness in the OT. Why can't he fall prey to them now?

6 hours ago, splad said:

What, you and the flying monkeys?

No, seriously, he invited us in a private chat and ask us about our opinion about you and how to express it the best way. Though I am just a hairless ape, not a flying monkey.

Just now, SEApocalypse said:

No, seriously, he invited us in a private chat and ask us about our opinion about you and how to express it the best way. Though I am just a hairless ape, not a flying monkey.

Duuuude! It's supposed to be a s-e-c-r-e-t.

10 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

Luke displayed shame and bitterness in the OT. Why can't he fall prey to them now?

Again, I'm not saying those emotions can't influence him, but it's an incredibly serious lapse in judgement for a Jedi to abandon the galaxy in its hour of need, so Luke's decision requires an equally serious justification to explain it. There needs to be some factor that he could conceivably see as a good reason for him to go into exile rather than do what he can to help Leia.

Think of Obi-Wan immediately after the rise of the Empire. He decided to go into hiding too. Maybe that was the right decision, maybe it wasn't. Probably it had something to do with his shame at his apprentice turning to the dark side. But for us to understand why Obi-Wan, a hero, would make this choice, there had to be some greater justification for it: he felt he had to protect Luke, and eventually make sure Luke was educated as a Jedi. If there were no Luke, Obi-Wan's decision to go into the desert would've made no sense.