On 12/22/2017 at 1:35 PM, 2P51 said:

Maelora is the one who coined the Mary Poppins reference, is she a sexist?

Yes, and she should be ashamed of herself for being so bigoted. Someone ought to teach her how to respec wamen.

2 hours ago, Degenerate Mind said:

See, this is why I'm not a director. Still would have been a badarse sendoff for the Admiral. Better than what he got, for sure.

Considering that Ackbar followed his voice actor, I would say it's ok to send him off this way. Erik Bauersfeld died in April 2016.

1 minute ago, SEApocalypse said:

Considering that Ackbar followed his voice actor, I would say it's ok to send him off this way. Erik Bauersfeld died in April 2016.

Oh... I wasn't aware.

To the controverse of Plagueis / Palpatine / Anakin Combination - for those who like to hear since it is nowadays half canon and half legends.

We have indeed two hints to Anakins Origins from the Prequels TPM tells us that Anakin was given birth by the Force/ the midichlorians

In The Legends source "Darth Plagueis" we can read that the former Muun Dark Lord experimented with the midichlorians to gain immortality (a common aim of Ultra Evil Suckers that want to reign the universe forever - even so he wasn't as evil as good old Palps)

We learn in the book that he suceeded up to the point to convince the midiclorians within his test subjects to create new cells, so he was able to create and prolonge life, also he was able to do the opposite to let the midichlorians destroy the cells, to kill (ok that is a feat every darklord can, but on a different level)

In the book (which takes place up to the day after when palpatine becomes Chancelor) when Palpatine hears the rumors about Anakin beeing a miracle birth by some force hookie pookie he suspects that somehow the experiments of Darth Plagueis and his sucesses with the midichlorians had taken a cosmic detour and somehow affected the boys mother by pure accident/ chance on a planet his former Master never visited. In a way he thought of Shmi as some kind of cosmic force lightning rod.

Now we go back to the canon a lot of years later in ROTS Palpatine feeds Anakin a lot of stuff, some lies, some truthes, a lot of in between (because a good lie needs always a fundament of truth to grow on). This when he tells Ani the "Tragoedy of Darth Plagueis" which is a true story (from a certain point of view, of course) he just didn't tell Anie that this übermaster was his own Master.

In combination with TPM this is indeed an "Aha-Moment" if a viewer draws the string even without kwoning Palpatines Background.

In combination with the book a viewer/reader knows that this is what Palpatine beliefs or at least what he highly suspects - that Darth Plagueis was an important factor to Anakins birth (evenso he NEVER met Shmi or was close to her!)

very Important in both cases (Book and movies):

1. The involvement of Plagueis in Anakins Birth is ONLY Palpatines suspection, it is never said to be true nor false!
2. Palpatine while powerfull, never learned the secret to manipulate the midichlorians to the level of Plagueis. He is not capable to create or even prolong life, he tells us himself in the movie (first within the Story he tells Anakin "His Pupil learned everything but that!" and second when Anakin becomes Vader and askes to save Padme - where palpatine declares that only Plagueis was capable to do so but together they will be able to uncover the secret.) - this speaks highly against the "Powerfull Life leaching across the galaxy, while nobody notices it" Theory. also we never see any Lifeleaching or even healing Force Powers within the Movies (I know that doesn't mean that they can't exist but especially GL always wanted to display forcepowers in the movies, he never intended to just imply them)

Funny note:

while it sounds lame that Padme "just lost her will to life" it is not so unknow (or rightout dumb) as most people think, e.g. thanks to the so called childbed depression a lot of Women lost theire life just because they lost the will to life and/ or the power to support teire child and themself - Yes, Padme was an very fast and extreme example of this category but well it is not unheard of. - And GL wasn't the first to use this feat: J.R.R. Tolkien already used this in his "Silmarillon" (the prequel to "The Hobbit" and "The Lord of the Rings" - the Mother of Fearnor (a powerfull elf with an tragic end) died in the Real of Valinor (a land of everlasting spring and life) after she gave birth to the boy she went immideatly to her favorit place in a beautyfull garden and there she just died because "her lifeforce was exhausted by the flame of the boys' soul she gave birth to" and she became the first inhabitant of Valinor to see the house of souls (elfish afterlife)

And now I'll have to brush my hands because I wrote the evil and forbidden word that much... midichlorians *shudder*

16 hours ago, Vorzakk said:

I see. So when Obi-Wan says "Your father's lightsaber" as though that meant something; he didn't mean the first one that he built or the one that saw him through the Clone Wars or anything like that, just the one (of many) that he happened to have on him at the time of his crispening.

Correct, well and it foremost implied:

This is the last saber your farther build before he fall to the darkside... Oh and it is this saber that he used to slaughter all the jedi in the Temple the day he Empire started it's reign, I lost a lot of friends to this little bastard... and before I forget it is also the saber your dear farther used to slay down dozends of younglings, childs that considerd him theire protector, theire guardian, they had no clue what was going on... he butcherd them, mercilessly... yeah you take it, it is a fine Weapon out of more civilised days!

I'm sure it will still work your farther was very crafty in technical thinks...

In hindside it is no wonder Kylo wants this heilroom... it was a symbol a slaugthering innocent and helpless kids... there should be no dark lord without something compareable!

28 minutes ago, Nightone said:

Kylo wants this heilroom

Intentional misspelling or not, it's a very appropriate one.

Although I think Hux is the one more likely to want a dedicated room for it.

16 minutes ago, penpenpen said:

Intentional misspelling or not, it's a very appropriate one.

Although I think Hux is the one more likely to want a dedicated room for it.

ups... funny things that happens ^^ yes quite appropiate

The Last Jedi Easter eggs explain:)

One complaint I've seen elsewhere about this movie is that there's no way to explain the map to Luke, since Luke didn't want to be found. It might have been nice if they'd said something about where the map came from, but I think there's a pretty plausible explanation available.

It's well established that X-wings require an R-series droid to program their hyperdrive jumps. I suspect what happened is:

It seem like this part of the story is explained in the Poe Dameron comics. His first mission is to find Lor San Tekka and the map - so he follows the trail of the explorer. Maybe they will reveal there, how the old man got hold of the map.

A lot of things are explained there - the Resistance' lack of fuel (not for the first time), why there's only such a small force and how the FO could rise without the NR looking.

Disney seems to build a 'new' EU, one that is indeed linked with every other part, where one media serves to supplement the other. Yes, this is a way of making money - but on the other hand, it's what the old EU was severely lacking.

2 hours ago, DaverWattra said:

One complaint I've seen elsewhere about this movie is that there's no way to explain the map to Luke, since Luke didn't want to be found. It might have been nice if they'd said something about where the map came from, but I think there's a pretty plausible explanation available.

It's well established that X-wings require an R-series droid to program their hyperdrive jumps. I suspect what happened is:

--Luke used R2 to program the jumps for most of his journey, then left R2 behind either at the beginning or the end of that leg of the journey. The map for this part of the journey remained within R2's memory (Maybe Luke even ordered R2 to delete the trip from his memory, but R2 secretly kept it stored).

--Then Luke used some other means (a different droid?) to program the jumps for the last leg.

--Somehow, Lor San Tekka came to possess a record of Luke's course during the last leg of the journey (maybe he got ahold of the droid Luke used to program that last leg).

Honestly, these new trilogy movies feel to me like someone is sitting down first and foremost with particular things they want to happen or see in the film and then bending over backwards to try and make those scence make sense.

Often, we end up with needlessly convoluted pretzel shaped in-fiction justifications when a straight line plot would have worked just fine and saved time for Snoke/Fasma/Space Battles etc.

Additionally, though I like your explanation for the existance of the map - none of that can really be inferred from the film and it's all part of peculiar central plotline that doesn't make much sense in the first place.

And to be fair, I am a big fan of the films. I loved the force awakens which I saw I think 6 or 7 times at the cinema? and liked the last jedi. There's some great character writing in both films and some of the performances are genuinely thrilling. But I am truly baffled by many major writing decisions made in those films.

1 hour ago, Sunrider said:

It seem like this part of the story is explained in the Poe Dameron comics. His first mission is to find Lor San Tekka and the map - so he follows the trail of the explorer. Maybe they will reveal there, how the old man got hold of the map.

A lot of things are explained there - the Resistance' lack of fuel (not for the first time), why there's only such a small force and how the FO could rise without the NR looking.

Disney seems to build a 'new' EU, one that is indeed linked with every other part, where one media serves to supplement the other. Yes, this is a way of making money - but on the other hand, it's what the old EU was severely lacking.

I'm not a big fan of delivering vital context externally like this, though. In fact I somewhat despise it, like DLC for movies. C3P0 glibly declaring he had a spin-off that explained his red arm was pretty painful but lacking complete swathes of plot that serve to provide any meaning to 50% of what is happening was pretty annoying. Those huge flipping gaps are really evident and I just end up feeling alienated by the films in that regard.

Honestly I think people overanalyze everything to the detriment of their enjoyment. The original trilogy is and will always be my favorite. And while I may have enjoyed thinking and suppositioning about the Emperor or the Clone Wars or whether or not Darth Vader was Luke's father it never detracted from my enjoyment of the movies as they came out. For me the new trilogy works because it is creating new characters and situations to go forward while putting the past behind it. And I would prefer this be with new characters rather than carrying on the Skywalker legacy.

6 minutes ago, mouthymerc said:

Honestly I think people overanalyze everything to the detriment of their enjoyment. The original trilogy is and will always be my favorite. And while I may have enjoyed thinking and suppositioning about the Emperor or the Clone Wars or whether or not Darth Vader was Luke's father it never detracted from my enjoyment of the movies as they came out. For me the new trilogy works because it is creating new characters and situations to go forward while putting the past behind it. And I would prefer this be with new characters rather than carrying on the Skywalker legacy.

Perhaps. Though when something clicks for me it's wildly exciting. And as I say, there was much to love in Force Awakens and I do love it. That doesn't mean I can't see, discuss or be disappointed by what I perceive to be its flaws.

On the topic of the OT, there are some pretty big differences between the unexplained in that film versus this one. Primarily, none of the OT films rely on knowledge of those external circumstances to make sense or connect emotionally with what is on the screen. Additionally, although much of what happens or exists off-screen is omitted it is explained at an emotional or intellectual level very succinctly in the film. For instanc, for my money the conversation with old Ben where he gives Luke the Lightsaber is far more evocative when invoking the clone wars and Luke's father than the entire PT. Sometimes you don't need to know everything.

So I found this on Twitter, in an annoying as **** format. But I cut and pasted it into one for your reading. There's some interesting points brought up:

Quote

Rewatch The Empire Strikes Back and I think it's apparent that there was no other choice for Luke Skywalker in The Last Jedi, given the events of The Force Awakens. The entire premise of The Empire Strikes Back is that Luke Skywalker can sense Han and Leia in danger before it happens across the galaxy and drops everything to save them. Which makes the biggest question in The Force Awakens, to me, "Why didn't Luke save Han?"

Not Snoke, not Rey's parents, nothing. Why did Luke Skywalker let Han Solo die?

Luke is the central mystery of The Force Awakens. The opening sentence of the crawl is "Luke Skywalker has vanished." The closing shot is Rey having found him. The film is begging us to ask these questions about Luke. Why are we getting sidetracked by Snoke and Rey's parents?

Because of Empire and The Force Awakens, I don't think Rian Johnson COULD have done anything else with Luke Skywalker and have it make sense. There were slight variations that could have been made, sure, but the broad strokes of what Johnson gave us are pretty much inevitable.

I expected Luke to toss the saber the first time I saw the film. That's his thing. I've been on the "Luke is turning to non-violence" bandwagon for a while. But I was furious the first time I heard him say, "Where's Han?" BUT! I realized there had to be a reason for it...

My patience paid off in what I find one of the most heartfelt and stunning moments in the film: when Rey realizes that Luke has cut himself off from the Force.

Here we have the single most powerful Force user in the galaxy forced to cut himself off of every instinct he has for fear he'll do the galaxy more harm than good. From Luke's perspective, this abstinence of the Force is heroic. Another Jedi purge becomes impossible. The perspective of the audience hasn't been as sympathetic. But this is also one of the central themes of The Last Jedi: that we can all perceive the exact same thing in a different way.

I'm not just talking about the Rashomon sequence (which I thought was brilliant filmmaking), but the vision Rey and Kylo shared and discussed on the elevator. They saw the same thing and came to different conclusions about what that outcome would be. "Always in motion is the future," Master Yoda would say.

But let's talk about the Rashomon sequence. Because, to me, this is what made Luke the LEAST Luke and the MOST Luke and the more I watch it, the more heartbreaking it is to me in the best ways. In case anyone is unfamiliar, Rashomon is a groundbreaking 1950 samurai film by Akira Kurosawa, who has always been an intense influence on Star Wars. It tells the tale of a murder in a meadow from three different perspectives. The film never offers us an objective truth on what happened, merely lets the narrators be as reliable or unreliable as our point of view allows.

Our first glimpse of the "Rashomon" triptych in The Last Jedi comes when Luke explains that he'd sensed the Dark Side in Ben. He went to confront him about it and it didn't go well. No sabers were in play. This is how Luke WISHES it would have gone, if at all.

The second version is from Ben's perspective. Naturally, he's the hero of this version. Luke practically has Sith eyes and his green lightsaber is almost a sickly yellow. From Ben's POV, Luke arrives to murder him absolutely. There is no question in his mind.

And then, the third time, we're given Luke's version. A blend of the two with plenty of shades of gray. And, for my money, the version of the story I believe. And it's the one I think truest to Luke's character, too.

Luke goes to check on Ben and the darkness growing inside him. This wellness check is already filled with self-doubt. Luke, like every creative or heroic person I've ever known, suffers from impostor syndrome. Just like Obi-Wan's. And here he sees a darkness greater than anything he could have ever imagined. And a future where all of his loved ones are killed and the Jedi order he cared about burned to the ground. What happened the last time he was confronted with an image of this?

The last time this happened, he was in the Death Star Throne Room and Vader taunted him with this vision of the future and he lost control. He ignited his saber out of instinct and fought. With rage and anger. But he pulled himself back from doing the thing he swore he wouldn't do: kill his own father. Then he tosses his lightsaber and says, essentially, "kill me if you have to, but I'll die like a Jedi."

Now, he goes to Ben's hut and sees that future all over again. And, as before, his saber ignites. And this is startling to him. He's instantly ashamed of himself and must deal with the consequence of that split-second consideration. We know he'd NEVER kill his nephew. Ben doesn't.

Some have said that Luke wouldn't consider this again, but facing the Dark side of yourself isn't a "one time and it's over thing." It's a constant. We learn and we grow and we constantly have to reevaluate that.

And here's where Luke decided it was ultimately the right thing for the Galaxy to end the Jedi and quit the Force. Because these cycles of violence will happen between good and evil jockeying for power. And the constant in Luke's view was the Jedi.

Their failure. Hypocrisy. Hubris.

If they were off the playing field, there would be no Vader. Or Kylo Ren. So instead of doubling down and training NEW Jedi to take down his nephew, he simply ends the cycle.

VIolence begets violence and Luke would no longer participate.

And that's why I love the end of the movie. Luke finally learned from his mistakes. He could stick to his non-violence, but still set an example that would ignite the galaxy. Which is why his saber never touches Ben's during the fight. It's 100% evasion. He had lost the understanding of the value of the Legend of Luke Skywalker, but Rey helped him find it again. And he could once again believe in himself. And the Jedi.

From my perspective, given Luke's inaction in TFA, this is the ONLY thing that could have been done with him. And why I've embraced the arc so much. I love it.

You don't have to like it, but this thread is the Luke I saw up there. And when he has his heroic moment on Crait and binary sunset... It's a perfect capstone to his character, given the turn the universe and canon took.

4 hours ago, DaverWattra said:

One complaint I've seen elsewhere about this movie is that there's no way to explain the map to Luke, since Luke didn't want to be found. It might have been nice if they'd said something about where the map came from, but I think there's a pretty plausible explanation available.

I would imagine that it's simply not the map to Luke, but the map to the place where Luke wanted to go.

I mean the map business is explained in Force Awakens. It's a map to the planet which Luke was searching. That's all there is to it.

6 hours ago, Sunrider said:

It seem like this part of the story is explained in the Poe Dameron comics. His first mission is to find Lor San Tekka and the map - so he follows the trail of the explorer. Maybe they will reveal there, how the old man got hold of the map.

A lot of things are explained there - the Resistance' lack of fuel (not for the first time), why there's only such a small force and how the FO could rise without the NR looking.

Disney seems to build a 'new' EU, one that is indeed linked with every other part, where one media serves to supplement the other. Yes, this is a way of making money - but on the other hand, it's what the old EU was severely lacking.

The general idea seems to be that Luke got the map FROM Lor San Tekka who helped Luke to locate Ahch-To. That is the reason he has this part of the map. Now R2D2 having stored their previous steps of the journey seems reasonable.
The only silly part seems to be the presentation of the map itself … a missing beginning itself should not be a problem, so the assumption should be that the "map" is a set of hyperspace routes leading to the target and thus a lot more complicated than just the coordinates of Ahch-To. That would be in star wars indeed a map and something which is used by all kinds of people, from the old republic having maps with secret hyperspace routes to smugglers using maps of secret passages in and out of systems.

But it is all based around the assumption of hyperspace lanes, which seem to be ignored every so often in the movies when the movie makes decide that a quick jump across the whole galaxy would be convenient. I take my hyperspace network with even dedicated lanes for different speeds, routes, interrupts for real space shortcuts and dedicated "jump points" along those real space points of interests over those arbitrary movie rules anyway day.

Actually, the section of the map R2 had has already been established as coming from the Imperial records he downloaded from the first Death Star. Kylo Ren had those same files, as mentioned in the movie.

15 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Actually, the section of the map R2 had has already been established as coming from the Imperial records he downloaded from the first Death Star. Kylo Ren had those same files, as mentioned in the movie.

What's your source here?

Why would the Imperials have records of the first leg of the trip to Ahch-To?

Not saying I don't believe you, but it seems weird.

4 minutes ago, DaverWattra said:

What's your source here?

Why would the Imperials have records of the first leg of the trip to Ahch-To?

Not saying I don't believe you, but it seems weird.

The Imperial records have the full map of the galaxy minus the section leading to Ach-to. This is also what R2 had, as seen in the movie.

From the Wookieepedia article on Ahch-To :

Quote

As the Resistance began its fight against the First Order, General Leia Organa, Skywalker's sister, hoped to find her brother and bring him back into the fight against the dark side. She sent Commander Poe Dameron to Jakku, where he retrieved a partial map held by Lor San Tekka that gave part of the direction to Ahch-To. Later, after the partial map was given to the Resistance, Skywalker's astromech droid R2-D2, who had been in low power mode since Skywalker's exile, returned to full power and provided the rest of the map to Ahch-To.^[2] R2-D2 unknowingly had the map in his databanks for many years, having found it in the network of the Galactic Empire aboard the Death Star during the Galactic Civil War.^[7] Rey, a young Force-sensitive scavenger, took the map and traveled to Ahch-To, where she found Skywalker in his exile.^[2]

So weird...

Considering R2 saved the "You're my last hope, Obi-Wan Kenobi" message from more than 30 years ago... is there an electronic equivalent of "hoarder"?

2 minutes ago, Cifer said:

Considering R2 saved the "You're my last hope, Obi-Wan Kenobi" message from more than 30 years ago... is there an electronic equivalent of "hoarder"?

Wel, considering that R2 has,to my knowledge, never had a memory wipe, who knows how much information and knowledge he has gathered over the decades since the events of TPM?

2 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Wel, considering that R2 has,to my knowledge, never had a memory wipe, who knows how much information and knowledge he has gathered over the decades since the events of TPM?

I wonder if R2 ever told Luke the story of what went down in The Olden Days. He's a pretty savvy sumbitch and knows when to keep his mouth shut and when it's okay to spill the beans.

Also TLJ confirmed: R2 is salty as **** and has a potty mouth.