18 minutes ago, HorusArisen said:

Yes...entire book just to explain a moment of weakness...essential

Like an entire plot about how Anakin wins a podrace just to explain how Old Ben told Luke that his father was a great pilot when he met him? Yeah, doesn’t sound like something Star Wars would do.

Notice i I didn’t say it was essential. I said it will likely happen. Like an exploration of how Darth Vader fell, its an important life character making a fateful choice that affects the galaxy.

5 minutes ago, splad said:

But with Ben he went into his shack and calmly plotted to kill him.

That's not at all what happens in the movie.

But you know that.

28 minutes ago, Cifer said:

Maybe it was human weakness, maybe it was supernatural influence, but I'd like to think that under normal circumstances, a jedi might experience moments of fear without igniting their light saber while standing over the bed of their student.

Luke has an established history of having lapses of impulse control, some of which he overcomes.

26 minutes ago, Cifer said:

Who's deifiying jedi here? I'd merely say that when "There is no emotion. There is peace.", I'd expect jedi to have a better grip on their emotions in relatively quiet circumstances, because that's what they should be good at. Drawing your light saber is a pretty heavy moment of weakness - one I wouldn't ordinarily expect from a teacher and uncle. So when we already know that someone around him was manipulated towards the dark side, I find it a very possible explanation that Luke himself was given a little push.

Or seeing in Ben Solo the rise of another Vader panicked, which given that Vader effectively dragged the galaxy into the dark times as the emperors hound is enough reason to have a panic attack. Just because the Jedi have a code and philosophy doesn’t mean they can’t falter along the way without needing to blame a third party.

I do find it funny how everybody measures Luke within the Jedi-Code. Technically, he is not a Jedi. There's no Council anymore to elevate him to that position - and there's certainly no Code he has to adhere to. Nowhere in the movies is the Code ever been mentioned - at least not in those poetic verses that came along in the EU. The only thing is Yoda's fortune-cookie wisdom and some rather vague things like not killing unarmed prisoners ...

Luke may be thought of as the Last Jedi, because he's the one everybody has heard about. But Force-choking Gamorrean guards was certainly nothing that Yoda would approve of.

But this is one of the really great moments in VIII: Luke telling Rey what the Order had become and that there's no place for it in the Galaxy anymore. And I can only hope that we don't get to see those hypocritical pseudo-zen-monks in another incarnation.

55 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

That's not at all what happens in the movie.

But you know that.

It was a complete emotional counter point to his duel with Vader and still he redeemed him inspite of all that and his own nephew he is driven to kill him...So so out of character

54 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

Luke has an established history of having lapses of impulse control, some of which he overcomes.

And you didn't think years of mastering his abilities and himself would have given him more temperance than less. When he was hot headed he still redeemed Vader and he couldn't do that for his own blood...poor writing

21 minutes ago, splad said:

It was a complete emotional counter point to his duel with Vader and still he redeemed him inspite of all that and his own nephew he is driven to kill him...So so out of character

Tell me more about this alternate universe in which you live! No wait, don't, it sounds awful.

Interesting. I call them cosplayers, but I don't think I ever made the leap to them being Neo-Nazis.

14 minutes ago, splad said:

It was a complete emotional counter point to his duel with Vader and still he redeemed him inspite of all that and his own nephew he is driven to kill him...So so out of character

No it wasn't.

With Vader:
-he tries to redeem him
-he's baited by the comment about his sister
-he almost hacks him to pieces
-he pulls back from the brink

With Ben:
-he teaches him
-he sees the darkness rise in him
-he contemplates killing him
-he relents and doesn't go through with it (but Ben sees him, doesn't know he'd reconsider and... we know the rest)

41 minutes ago, Sunrider said:

I do find it funny how everybody measures Luke within the Jedi-Code. Technically, he is not a Jedi.

Well, a film called "Return of the Jedi" and a proclamation of "I am a Jedi, like my father before me" tend to do that to people.

44 minutes ago, Sunrider said:

But this is one of the really great moments in VIII: Luke telling Rey what the Order had become and that there's no place for it in the Galaxy anymore. And I can only hope that we don't get to see those hypocritical pseudo-zen-monks in another incarnation.

Time will tell what the new Jedi will look like, but Luke fully reverses his statement at the end of the movie ("Every word in that sentence was wrong") and Rey has brought the books of the first Jedi with her on the Falcon.

I find the idea that Disney would remove the Jedi from Star Wars rather unlikely. To put it mildly.

5 minutes ago, Cifer said:

a proclamation of "I am a Jedi, like my father before me"

That's how he wants to see himself - but Yoda already tells him, that he is not until he faces Vader. So, that's wishful thinking thrown in the face of the Emperor.

7 minutes ago, Cifer said:

Rey has brought the books of the first Jedi with her on the Falcon.

Hopefully they will not contain the same crap Yoda held on to, fearing every shadow because it could hide the Dark Side ...

Just now, Sunrider said:

That's how he wants to see himself - but Yoda already tells him, that he is not until he faces Vader. So, that's wishful thinking thrown in the face of the Emperor.

So... what had he done just before making that statement? Chopped off any hands or something like that? Perhaps while facing someone?

So? It's still wishful thinking - technically, he never could become a Jedi, as there's none left to elevate him to that rank.

Calling him a Jedi-Master is plain wrong - technically.

9 hours ago, Khazadune said:

Please try and offer the same courtesy to others, this is not the sort of forum that need be a toxic place.

No, I was no insulting him. The inability to analyze context and meaning is absolutely a breakdown in critical thinking. That's not an attack, that's a statement of fact. Just think think about what the movie is trying to tell you for a moment. If the movie spoon fed everything to you, THAT would be terrible writing.

So yes, I stand 100% percent by my statement. Think about the movie, don't post goddamned memes.

9 hours ago, Khazadune said:

He is faced with Palpatine who is a known manipulator and massively powerful force user who was clearly using the force to influence Luke’s thoughts and feelings, trying to tempt him. This is probably the hardest moment anyone in any Star Wars film is faced with.

The thing is, we have ZERO idea about what happened just before. What set Luke off? Was it a dream/force vision? Was it just a very human moment of doubt and fear? The last moment of a long chain of instances? The scene is being told from two different perspectives - we have no idea if that is what even actually happened. The scene is Star Wars: Rashomon, a textbook example of the unreliable narrator. The truth in that scene is very much compromised by who is telling it, which is why you absolutely need to apply critical thinking to what is going on and what we know about Luke and his intermittent lack of impulse control.

"My family is in danger? I better get back home to help them despite the Empire almost certainly bringing more forces than what one farmboy can handle."

"Oh no, I had a vision! I better run off and save my friends despite my mentor(s) telling me that's a bad idea!"

"You're gonna turn my sister? No you don't! Murderous rage! RARRRRH!!!"

"Oh no! I had a vision about Ben taking over the galaxy! I better act!"

How is this inconsistent?

@Sunrider

Okay, you've lost me.

Yoda said Luke has to face Vader.
Luke faces Vader (note his umpteen "I shouldn't be here, I'm endangering everyone, I have to face Vader, so I'm going to face Vader now" comments on Endor).
Luke chops Vader's hand off, overcoming his enemy physically.
Luke refrains from killing him, overcoming the dark side spiritually.
Luke proclaims himself a Jedi, after having done what Yoda said he needed to do to become a Jedi.
What's the problem?

1 minute ago, Cifer said:

What's the problem?

The "problem" is, that to become a true Jedi, you had to be a Padawan to one, then formally acknowledged by the Council and elevated to the rank of Knight. Given that Luke has been trained by two masters (however brief), there's still the thing with being formally recognized as Jedi Knight.

So, to the Jedi of the Republic Luke would be just a Rogue, nothing more.

1 hour ago, Cifer said:

I'd expect jedi to have a better grip on their emotions in relatively quiet circumstances, because that's what they should be good at.

Whatever gives you the idea that Luke is a good jedi? Powerful, yes. Well trained? Not even close.

The whole point of E1-3 was to demonstrate just how broken and out of touch with their humanity the Jedi order was. They were mired down in rote and tradition, they were living - quite literally - in their ivory tower, they had lost their way. That is what "bringing balance to the force" meant, not a 1-1 parity of Sith-Jedi, but that that the order had become dysfunctional. Luke was the second half of that prophesy of restoring balance, that he was to bringing a Clark Kent, downhome Kansas farmboy humanity and connection to the common man back to an all new order.

So you very easily could make the case that Luke's emotions (and with that, occasional lack of emotional control) was the very core of his story arc.

2 hours ago, splad said:

And you didn't think years of mastering his abilities and himself would have given him more temperance than less. When he was hot headed he still redeemed Vader and he couldn't do that for his own blood...poor writing

And it did give him more temperance.

Instead of hammering away at Ben with a lightsaber for a few minutes (like he did with dear ol’ dad), he ignited his saber, then came to his senses. Unfortunately, not before Ben woke up and saw him there, then pulled the hut down on Luke. When, exactly, between being knocked unconscious and digging himself out of the rubble to find his entire academy in flames and his students (including Ben) dead or gone did you expect Luke to redeem Ben?

40 minutes ago, Desslok said:

Oh please. If I were insulting you, you would absolutely and without doubt know it.

Seen as I was not quoting you I don't think I was aiming at you what do you think hmm

Then I apologize for the assumption. I have no issue rolling that back when I'm wrong.

(To be fair, I was coming right off the back of Khazadune, who was accusing me of being toxic when I wasn't)

There’s a lot of emotions raging, so I recommend everyone just unfollow the thread and let it go. There will always be differences of opinions. I think this thread and the other have shown that for every person that likes the movie a ton, there is someone who doesn’t, and that’s okay... to each their own. We all share a similar interest in this game and what it brings, so let’s turn back to those aspects that bring us here to discuss our fun adventure in this amazing universe.

10 minutes ago, Khazadune said:

There’s a lot of emotions raging, so I recommend everyone just unfollow the thread and let it go.

Is this something you can't do on your own? Or do you need to tell everyone else what to do?

Or just a man struggling to uphold the legacy of an entire Jedi Order. I think the thing that wasn't perhaps expressed enough was the immense pressure Luke was under to bring up the new Jedi Order; the impression I had was that this entire galaxy had an expection of him; it was that same expectation that made Han and Leia terrible parents to Ben.

I feel if anything, the Last Jedi lacked world building. It always felt in a rush to be doing something in the same way that the Force Awakens had little to no downtime. Though admittedly the force awakens did have some world building elements on Jakku, the smugglers den and the like. The Last Jedi didn't really have any locations it was particularly invested in; though in all fairness the good movies generally only moved planets when thematic to the plot rather then doing a Rogue 1 and jumping around like 8 planets in the space of 2 hours (which made me feel uninvested after the first hour.)

The other thing I felt the last Jedi was that it had a lot going on; the cast didn't get together until the end of the movie so it's a bold move to run like 3/5 different plot threads within the movie. The resistance Arc with Finn, Poe and Rose (which spilt into two arcs for the entirety of the movie.), the Island Arc and Kylo Rens arc. I found it rather interesting that the movie considered Kylo Ren a main character going through his own developmental arc; and came to the conclusion that the only way to fix this universe was to destroy everything. The Jedi, the Republic and ultimately the new Order too. That being said; the fact that it did have some focus on the little people, especially that bomber sequence at the start sold the resistance as a community to me more then Rogue 1 sold it's squad of main characters that literally gathered for one job.

I am sorry; but I find it really amusing that there is discussion that Luke wasn't ever a Jedi? XD Oh boy, I do not regret subscribing to this thread. Popcorn crunching intensifies

34 minutes ago, LordBritish said:

It always felt in a rush to be doing something in the same way that the Force Awakens had little to no downtime.

Maybe we'll see that in the deleted scenes on the BluRay (already confirmed at more than 20 minutes) - cutting that much from a finished movie has some serious impact on things like pace and storytelling, after all.