That ist not spying. At least Not what i would i define it. I think the Term is informant or intelligencer.

Between rogue one and Episode 4 they followed them to tatooine, in the book lords of the Sith rebels cant shake of Vader and His squad even after several jumps.

2 minutes ago, Seguleh said:

Between rogue one and Episode 4 they followed them to tatooine

We don't know if that was following or more like finally catching them after them being spotted, do we?

22 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

Plus, the spying. In the movie. When he spies. Like a spy.

Oh please. If it doesnt have a 14 page wookieepeedia entry, it didnt happen!

10 hours ago, KungFuFerret said:

Eh, with a franchise that treats science and magic as practically interchangeable, I honestly wouldn't expect a spy. I mean, when the mention of them tracking us is presented, they never even suggest they have a mole on board. Their first idea is "it must be Science Babble, we can try and counter that with Counter Science Babble", you'd think someone like Poe would even hint at it, but he doesn't.

I don't have a problem with it, I'm simply addressing the "spy theory" that was presented and quoted further up by you, and why I think that's a flawed justification for her behavior, seeing as nothing else in the plot suggests a spy at all.

Again I refer to HFRO and how they handled the "spy" angle, and hiding information from the crew. If they were actually trying for a spy angle to justify Holdo's behavior, then we should've seen at least one scene of her communicating with the officers, or just Leia, about "General they followed us through hyperspace, that shouldn't be possible..." *casual glance around, then quiet comment* "We might have to consider the possibility of a spy on board, and take...precautions." But they never do that, which is why I think a spy subplot, that they never actually establish isn't good fan validation for her behavior.

Again, I actually don't have a problem with her behavior, of not telling Poe, other than they had already established that their "chain of command" was incredibly casual with how they spoke with each other, given the way Leia and Poe interact. They hardly established a hierarchy with how they behaved, it was more Mother/Rebellious Teenager, with how she slaps him, something an officer actually wouldn't do to a subordinate without ramifications, but IS something an annoyed mom would do to shut up her annoying kid. Then she has her little "heart to heart" with him, and then tells him to go blow up stuff. So it's hardly the most regimented, disciplined command structure I've ever seen. With that casual nature in mind, the fact that she didn't tell him does seem a bit out of place.

I mean, in New Hope, AND Return of the Jedi, we see the entire command structure give a lengthy, and detailed description of the ENTIRE battle plan, to every single member of the force that's taking part. Even the parts that they don't really need to know about. So the idea that in Star Wars, there is a strict "you don't need to know this because it's above your rank" isn't really established, when it comes to the good guys way of operating.

All that in mind, the fact that she didn't just say "yeah, we have a plan in place to make sure we are able to escape, just stay cool and we'll get out of this" or "yeah, we're going to use cloakers and escape to a nearby base" is a tad odd, even though I personally don't really care either way. It's something of a flaw in my mind, because of the nebulous, not really clear on either direction way they have the Resistance personnel behave, but I can also see either method being valid.

It doesn't break my brain like other plot points, so I don't really worry about it that much.

Seems to me like we're discussing the same thing but not the same thing, if you follow my meaning there.

I wasn't trying to suggest that the movie was trying to establish a full-fledged spy plot (although, with the various back-and-forths, I can certainly understand how one might get the impression that I was...lots of different side-topics and suppositions going on). I do, however, think they might have been playing with the audience's expectations. How? Because here's a new character, played by a Big Name, who's antagonistic to one of the Big D@mn Heroes, so...booo...hisssss. And the bad guys are somehow following the good guys in a way that hasn't been done before? Maybe...maybe...New Character That's Mean To The Big D@mn Hero (booooo...hisssss) has something to do with it! Less a matter of directly insinuating that Holdo is a spy/double agent, but just tweaking what the audience expects from seeing other movies when, as Luke says, "This isn't going to go the way you expect."

The Red October comparison isn't quite equivalent, though...if it were, we'd be following Holdo and seeing Poe from her perspective, rather than vice versa. Or Red October would be showing us its events from the perspective of "Captain scared 'em out of the water" Guy. But, that's not the story being told here...on our initial viewing, we're expected to think Poe's in the right and that Holdo's a petty ol' meanie. Without that, it impedes Poe's journey to learning his Lesson of Leadership.

And, as a bonus, some of us in that first viewing might think that this new character that we're positioned to dislike has something to do with the bad guys.

18 minutes ago, Desslok said:

Oh please. If it doesnt have a 14 page wookieepeedia entry, it didnt happen!

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Couch

26 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

The Red October comparison isn't quite equivalent, though...if it were, we'd be following Holdo and seeing Poe from her perspective, rather than vice versa. Or Red October would be showing us its events from the perspective of "Captain scared 'em out of the water" Guy. But, that's not the story being told here...on our initial viewing, we're expected to think Poe's in the right and that Holdo's a petty ol' meanie. Without that, it impedes Poe's journey to learning his Lesson of Leadership.

I was using RedOc as a comparison about how to actually convey a "we have a spy aboard" kind of subplot, by actually stating that it's an espionage/intrigue storyline. Because there is a difference in character knowledge, and audience knowledge. Like I said above, it's fine to keep that stuff from the character's, but if the plot involves a spy (which maybe not you were proposing, but several in this thread were suggesting that as a rationale for her behavior), then it's standard procedure, in storytelling structure, to let the audience at least know that there is an espionage subplot. Which is what RedOc did (I would use RO, but people might confuse it with Rogue One ) . They kept lots of things hidden, but we at least knew that someone on board wasn't well....on board with the defection plan

My only point, was that defense for Holdo's behavior, doesn't really hold up from a storytelling/director angle, for the reasons I stated above. I understand that there was at least some audience reason to think that was a possibility, as when I saw it for the first time, I too thought they were going to go down that route. But then they very clearly, and plainly stated to the audience "no, this is a Science Problem, so we're going to Counter Science our way out of it" Nobody even hinted at a mole, or a leak, or a spy, or anything. From Go, every character was like "they have some crazy tech to pull that off, and I will somehow know where it is, even though we didn't think it existed until 20 seconds ago". Which again, that's perfectly fine (aside from the idea that Finn knows where that type stuff would be on the ship), but it goes completely against the above mentioned "their might be spies so Holdo was justified in being tight lipped" defense. It just doesn't match what the movie actually shows us. That's all I was trying to get across.

Now, statements of things like "it's military structure to obey orders and she had no reason to tell him" and "he was a hothead egomaniac that just got their entire bomber wing destroyed, and disobeyed a direct order, so screw him about demanding to know what's going on, and she had every right to ignore him" are absolutely valid defenses, based on what the movie presented.

All I was trying to say, is that the "Spy Defense" specifically regarding why Poe was kept out of the loop (which is something multiple people have said to some degree in multiple threads), doesn't...Holdo (see what I did there!? HAH!) water for me. Because nobody, I mean nobody, from the grunts in the X-Wings, to the Command staff, to Finn and Rose, even for a second, consider it being sabotage/spy/espionage stuff. So the Spy Defense, is purely fan fabrication.

3 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

I was using RedOc as a comparison about how to actually convey a "we have a spy aboard" kind of subplot, by actually stating that it's an espionage/intrigue storyline. Because there is a difference in character knowledge, and audience knowledge. Like I said above, it's fine to keep that stuff from the character's, but if the plot involves a spy (which maybe not you were proposing, but several in this thread were suggesting that as a rationale for her behavior), then it's standard procedure, in storytelling structure, to let the audience at least know that there is an espionage subplot. Which is what RedOc did (I would use RO, but people might confuse it with Rogue One ) . They kept lots of things hidden, but we at least knew that someone on board wasn't well....on board with the defection plan

My only point, was that defense for Holdo's behavior, doesn't really hold up from a storytelling/director angle, for the reasons I stated above. I understand that there was at least some audience reason to think that was a possibility, as when I saw it for the first time, I too thought they were going to go down that route. But then they very clearly, and plainly stated to the audience "no, this is a Science Problem, so we're going to Counter Science our way out of it" Nobody even hinted at a mole, or a leak, or a spy, or anything. From Go, every character was like "they have some crazy tech to pull that off, and I will somehow know where it is, even though we didn't think it existed until 20 seconds ago". Which again, that's perfectly fine (aside from the idea that Finn knows where that type stuff would be on the ship), but it goes completely against the above mentioned "their might be spies so Holdo was justified in being tight lipped" defense. It just doesn't match what the movie actually shows us. That's all I was trying to get across.

Now, statements of things like "it's military structure to obey orders and she had no reason to tell him" and "he was a hothead egomaniac that just got their entire bomber wing destroyed, and disobeyed a direct order, so screw him about demanding to know what's going on, and she had every right to ignore him" are absolutely valid defenses, based on what the movie presented.

All I was trying to say, is that the "Spy Defense" specifically regarding why Poe was kept out of the loop (which is something multiple people have said to some degree in multiple threads), doesn't...Holdo (see what I did there!? HAH!) water for me. Because nobody, I mean nobody, from the grunts in the X-Wings, to the Command staff, to Finn and Rose, even for a second, consider it being sabotage/spy/espionage stuff. So the Spy Defense, is purely fan fabrication.

And that's why I say I think we're having the same and different conversations at the same time.

In the movie as presented, only Rose, Finn, and Poe know that "this is a Science Problem, so we're going to Counter Science our way out of it." The entire command structure just knows that the First Order is following them...somehow. (To expand a bit, with all of the lingering shots of Leia's half of the "Rey Phone Home" device, I thought Holdo was either manipulating that pair of devices, or had a similar one on her with the companion piece on the First Order's end, and that was what Hux was referring to about having the Resistance as a fish on the line.) Going more along the Red October route would have gone too far down the "espionage plot" misdirect (if they were intentionally making such a misdirect, that is). Given what the command staff knows (as presented in the movie), a security/sabotage/spy/double agent consideration, while not specifically stated in the movie, isn't an unreasonable inference to make.

At this point, let's just say we have different opinions on this and leave it at that. I grow weary of the discussion, and we're just circling the point.

The only point I will end on, is if they fear that there is a spy on board, then the "let's get into shuttles and sneak away" plan wouldn't work at all, because the spy would just, presumably ,use the same form of technique they used before. They assume the FO is following the ship, and that escaping the ship will work, that doesn't work if you bring the spy with you, which is what they would do in that scenario, since they brought everyone with them.

But again, think what you want based on what you saw, I disagree, and I don't think that the movie itself supports your claim. But seeing as this is basically boiling down to "I have a different interpretation of the same scenes than you." I'm leaving it there, as I doubt either of us will convince the other to change views on the material. If we were, it would've happened by now.

Later.

5 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

At this point, let's just say we have different opinions on this and leave it at that. I grow weary of the discussion, and we're just circling the point.

The only point I will end on, is if they fear that there is a spy on board, then the "let's get into shuttles and sneak away" plan wouldn't work at all, because the spy would just, presumably ,use the same form of technique they used before. They assume the FO is following the ship, and that escaping the ship will work, that doesn't work if you bring the spy with you, which is what they would do in that scenario, since they brought everyone with them.

But again, think what you want based on what you saw, I disagree, and I don't think that the movie itself supports your claim. But seeing as this is basically boiling down to "I have a different interpretation of the same scenes than you." I'm leaving it there, as I doubt either of us will convince the other to change views on the material. If we were, it would've happened by now.

Later.

We clearly won't since, as I've said repeatedly, I haven't claimed the movie established any sort of "spy storyline," you've agreed that I haven't, agreed that on initial viewing we both considered Holdo might be a double agent, yet here you are, saying I am again.

But then, I've been trying to say for a couple of posts now that we're circling the point, so....

ETA: Now, I did say at one point that if the "Holdo's really with the First Order" possibility was an intentional misdirect, that, to me, would be specifically why no spy/double agent possibility was mentioned by characters, because that sort of counter-counter-logic isn't the sort of story the movie (as a whole) was...it wasn't No Way Out.

17 minutes ago, Desslok said:

Oh please. If it doesnt have a 14 page wookieepeedia entry, it didnt happen!

Is this realy how you want discussions in this forum?

He pretty clear described what he meant, even i as a non native speaker understood his point. Just repeating postings and acting like the other opinions are just hard core nerd or whatever does nothing but poison this discussion even more.

Actually exactly stuff like this, together with snippy one line answers to long detailed posts is why i just use this forum for short questions and informations only.

A year ago or two there were realy cool discussions in this forum, but now it seems people dont take the effort to even try to understand what the others try to say.

@stan: well not for sure, there were some statements from developers, that there are just a few minutes or hours between the movies, and if there wouldnt they shout have had enough time to drop of the plans. But lords of the sith is canon too afaik.

36 minutes ago, Seguleh said:

But lords of the sith is canon too afaik.

Canon is just a marketing tool. The movies always have been , and always will be, the only thing that really matters.

53 minutes ago, Seguleh said:

Is this realy how you want discussions in this forum?

1 hour ago, Stan Fresh said:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Couch

This one is my favorite "Really, are you that ******* stupid" entry: Color

(And I just noticed that they have Canon Color and non Canon color entries. Really? Really?!?)

20 minutes ago, Desslok said:

This one is my favorite "Really, are you that ******* stupid" entry: Color

(And I just noticed that they have Canon Color and non Canon color entries. Really? Really?!?)

Not a wiki entry but a tweet by some guy saying Last Jedi brought non-blue milk into canon.

I'm like... What do you think goes on when a baby is breastfed?

16 hours ago, DaverWattra said:

Star Wars is about 0.1% political, which makes it boring and pointless to talk about contemporary politics when you're talking about Star Wars, with very rare exceptions.

Quote

George Lucas has admitted that one of the biggest influences on the series was the Nixon era. In an interview with the Chicago Tribune, Lucas said Star Wars “was really about the Vietnam War, and that was the period where Nixon was trying to run for a [second] term, which got me to thinking historically about how do democracies get turned into dictatorships? Because the democracies aren’t overthrown; they’re given away.”

When asked if Emperor Palpatine was a Jedi at one point in his life, Lucas responded, “No, he was a politician. Richard M. Nixon was his name. He subverted the senate and finally took over and became an imperial guy and he was really evil. But he pretended to be a really nice guy.”

In a New York Times interview, Lucas explained that “Anakin Skywalker is a promising young man who is turned to the dark side by an older politician and becomes Darth Vader.” He added, “George Bush is Darth Vader. Cheney is the Emperor.”

The prequels allowed Lucas to fully explore how a people’s republic can turn into an empire. While the original films were largely reactionary to the politics of the time, the prequels were occurring simultaneously to the War on Terror, and it reflects in the films as we see a non-conflict blown up into something that represents absolute patriotism, and the gradual decline into the creation of the Galactic Empire.

Lucas got some heat for giving Anakin a line of dialogue that was almost verbatim from a Bush speech. Anakin says to Obi Wan before his ultimate betrayal, “If you’re not with me then you’re my enemy.” Bush’s line was, ““You’re either with us or you’re with the enemy.”

6 hours ago, Seguleh said:

That ist not spying. At least Not what i would i define it. I think the Term is informant or intelligencer.

Yeah, or lookylooker or tattletaler.

It’s a spie.

8 hours ago, KungFuFerret said:

And none of that is actually shown in the movies much less an infiltrator that was in the Rebel forces, acting as a mole.

So we 40 years of expanded universe tradition with spies working for and against the rebellion, one movie about the spies of rebellion getting the death star plans, one famous line of "many bothan died" and cases of spies and traitors across several canon series.

Still it is unreasonable to assume that security and concern about espionage is a thing for the rebels, because we never had a star wars movie about a mole. I need a drink, because drinking seems popular these days. A lot of people seemed to went drunk to the movies …

I think it would have been better to make at least some remark about "need to know" or "secret information" or "potential spies". But it's really not something so far-fetched that it breaks the movie for me.

Did Holdo make a mistake? Yes. She could have told Poe the plan (bad idea, but it would have worked by chance since apparently there was no spy aboard). She could have reassured Poe more strongly there was a plan. She could have thrown Poe into the brig to let him cool down (*). So yes, she is part of the long parade of people in this movie who make mistakes.

Did Holdo make a believable mistake?
- The threat of a First Order spy is real and the plan is entirely reliant on secrecy.
- If Poe hadn't actually managed to have Finn and Rose inserted into the First Order fleet and spread the news about the transports via comlink where it could be overheard, her plan would have worked even with Poe's mutiny.
- She's not part of Poe's regular chain of command. Poe knows her by reputation only and perhaps so does she. She doesn't know what leadership style he responds to and probably uses the one she always went with: Play your cards tight to the chest and assume that your subordinates trust you or at least won't do something stupid.
- Poe has already disobeyed orders directly before and Leia has just demoted him. This is not the guy you give information to if he doesn't need it. This is the guy that if you didn't absolutely need him (and hey, his fighter just blew up), you'd throw into the brig - but unfortunately, morale is already low enough that that might lead to a mutiny too.
- And finally: I've read that the bombers actually came from Holdo's group, so she most likely just lost both some of her most important assets and a couple of friends to the insubordination of a flyboy. The same flyboy now pestering her for more details of a plan he isn't necessary for.
Yep, sounds like a recipe for a non-optimal decision to me.

As for the movie in general, I liked it at first. Then I read about half a dozen articles about it and found about as many additional tropes it broke with and reexamined by doing so (**). And then I liked it even more.

(*) Though maybe the Admiral's Quarters were damaged...
(**) Flyboy versus desk-jockey admiral. The Chosen One. The femme fatale. Easily redeemed. Heroes suffering no major psychological problems. The promise of cavalry. And so on and so forth.

One thing I really like about TLJ is how it leaves open a lot of possibilities for viewers to include parts of the old EU/Star Wars Legends in their headcanon.

Obviously not the Yuuzhan Vong invasion (but honestly I am relieved to have that one wiped from the pages of Star Wars history). But there is nothing stopping you from assuming that most of the events of Zahn's Thrawn trilogy occurred in this continuity--and I like the Thrawn story a lot better than the Aftermath series. You basically just have to replace Jacen and Jaina's birth with Ben's birth. There is also no obstacle to assuming that Mara Jade existed and was married to Luke, though you'd probably have to say that they didn't have any kids.

I didn't enjoy most of the rest of the EU, but for those who like it there are a lot of possibilities left open.

3 hours ago, SEApocalypse said:

Still it is unreasonable to assume that security and concern about espionage is a thing for the rebels, because we never had a star wars movie about a mole.

In a sense it's not unreasonable to assume it. It's only unreasonable in the same sense that it's unreasonable to assume John McClane from Die Hard would probably die from shock and bleeding if he were shot in the leg. It's not the sort of detail that movies in this series have paid attention to, so if you're going to make assumptions about that kind of detail in the plot, you need to draw explicit attention to that.

Especially because it requires a rather baroque explanation to say that Holdo's plan could not easily be compromised anyway by a spy once the Resistance fighters started loading into their transports to head to Crait and the plan became obvious to everyone on the cruiser. (Sure, the spy would die if they got on board their transport--but there are plenty of places to hide on a Mon Calamari cruiser and they aren't going to search the ship for every last crew member before leaving.)

For those people who keep claiming that this movie makes no sense and that there was too little explained and left to the imagination of the viewers, I can only show you this:

Yup... the rebels blew up the second Death Star and killed The Emperor and Vader... and they won and the Empire just gave up...

That's how the OT left us for several years, at least... nothing explained, just *BOOM* death star gone and suddenly celebration and joy all over the galaxy...

EDIT: And I think this would be a good time to point out that there are two major comedy shows that have made a lot of money from pointing out the logical flaws and plot holes in the Original Star Wars movies for quite a while (Robot Chicken and Family Guy) without people claiming that the Original Trilogy "sucks" because of it. Just face it, Star Wars has always been filled with plot holes and inconsistencies.

On 1/3/2018 at 6:13 AM, Stan Fresh said:

Canon is just a marketing tool. The movies always have been , and always will be, the only thing that really matters.

Only eps 4,5,6 in my campaigns...

1 hour ago, OddballE8 said:

EDIT: And I think this would be a good time to point out that there are two major comedy shows that have made a lot of money from pointing out the logical flaws and plot holes in the Original Star Wars movies for quite a while (Robot Chicken and Family Guy) without people claiming that the Original Trilogy "sucks" because of it. Just face it, Star Wars has always been filled with plot holes and inconsistencies.

My sentiments exactly!

I'm glad to see a defender of TLJ (other than myself) who acknowledges that there *are* plot holes and inconsistencies.

4 hours ago, DaverWattra said:

My sentiments exactly!

I'm glad to see a defender of TLJ (other than myself) who acknowledges that there *are* plot holes and inconsistencies.

Yup.

I didn't actually like TLJ very much.
I thought it had serious trouble with pacing and thematics.
But it was still definitely a Star Wars movie, and it wasn't a "bad" movie by any means.

I'll put it this way, it's the first of the Disney SW movies that I haven't wanted to see a second time in the cinema.
I'll still buy it on Blu-ray, and I'll still re-watch it.
Just not at the cinema-price

The plot holes and inconsistencies were not what made the movie less enjoyable in my eyes... because if that was what it took, then I wouldn't have liked the OT either.
Like I said before, what made it less exciting for me was the troubled pacing and the lack of picking a thematic for the movie.
I think that if they had focused less on the jokes and more on the serious notes, I would have liked it a lot more.
(and I didn't like the Canto Bight bit at all. I think they really missed the mark there. It wasn't a star wars casino planet... it was just "a casino with aliens". You know what I mean? A casino in Star Wars shouldn't be "black jack and hookers" but rather "sabacc and twi'lek dancers"... I don't know if I'm explaining my point very well here, but to me it felt like an earth casino with aliens in it...)

33 minutes ago, OddballE8 said:

I'll put it this way, it's the first of the Disney SW movies that I haven't wanted to see a second time in the cinema.

That's sort of how I feel too... although I am going to re-watch it this evening, actually, in the hopes that I'll enjoy it more now that I'm "prepared" for the things that grated on me the first time I saw it.

I think when I first watched the movie, I got a little bit into panic mode after the first ten minutes. They started with the Poe/Hux phone call, which felt like it was straight out of Spaceballs. Then we got the slow-mo Paige death scene, which felt straight out of a Michael Bay movie. They front-loaded two of the worst scenes, and at the end of that I was sitting there thinking "Jesus, am I going to hate this movie?" I think it affected my perception of what came after.

3 hours ago, DaverWattra said:

That's sort of how I feel too... although I am going to re-watch it this evening, actually, in the hopes that I'll enjoy it more now that I'm "prepared" for the things that grated on me the first time I saw it.

I think when I first watched the movie, I got a little bit into panic mode after the first ten minutes. They started with the Poe/Hux phone call, which felt like it was straight out of Spaceballs. Then we got the slow-mo Paige death scene, which felt straight out of a Michael Bay movie. They front-loaded two of the worst scenes, and at the end of that I was sitting there thinking "Jesus, am I going to hate this movie?" I think it affected my perception of what came after.

While you underscored two primary bad scenes that socked you right from the get go. I think the real ball smashers came later. I was already numb enough from the first viewing that the second view was less jarring. It let me see what Rian was trying to do. The movie suffered from poor oversight and lack of forward planning for the third part of this trilogy which has left JJ Abrams an onerous task of rescuing the frayed ends of the story and be able to wrap this trilogy in a satisfying way.