4 minutes ago, DaverWattra said:

Why must everything about this movie be criticized through the lens of politics? Holdo was a horrible character, a blight on a movie I otherwise mostly liked. But that had nothing to do with her being a purple-haired woman in authority. Critics of the movie just make themselves look bad when they gratuitously bring in politics like this.

That's because movies tend to reflect popular trends in politics and social climate so it is an entirely legitimate observation.

6 minutes ago, DaverWattra said:

Any such spies would also be able to signal the FO once everyone started piling into transports and abandoning the cruiser.

No, a spy *might* be able to do that, depending on the specifics of how they communicate.

And keeping the plan secret gives them time to find the possible spy. Revealing the plan immediately removes that extra bit of time.

25 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

No, a spy *might* be able to do that, depending on the specifics of how they communicate.

And keeping the plan secret gives them time to find the possible spy. Revealing the plan immediately removes that extra bit of time.

If they'd said any of that at any point in the movie--like "We're looking for a First Order spy, so some information is bridge officers only"--that would have fixed the problem. Of course, Poe also would never have mutinied if Holdo had said something like that.

And again, this doesn't explain why they don't tell the crew "We have a plan that could save all our lives."

2 minutes ago, DaverWattra said:

If they'd said any of that at any point in the movie--like "We're looking for a First Order spy, so some information is bridge officers only"--that would have fixed the problem. Of course, Poe also would never have mutinied if Holdo had said something like that.

And again, this doesn't explain why they don't tell the crew "We have a plan that could save all our lives."

That she was working with her command staff (when not shooing away Poe) seemed to send the message that there were at the very least plans being finalized pretty effectively. Poe was really the only one stirring up dissent against Holdo's command (and only after having his ego bruised by being reminded that he'd been busted down a peg for losing all of the fleet's bombers and a good many of the fighters and pilots)...a mutiny of enough people to be counted on one hand and overcome by a well placed kick to a steam pipe and some well-placed stun bolts.

But, here's where I think most people's issue with this thread comes in: Poe's one of the new generation of Big D@mn Heroes for Star Wars, and in most stories, the Big D@mn Heroes are always right. In this instance, Poe wasn't right in his actions. He began by ignoring orders (orders of one of the old guard Big D@mn Heroes, at that), lost a great many of the Resistance's assets that could help them in their situation for the specifically-stated reason of bragging rights. Maybe it's just because I'm watching Wrath of Khan right now, and this line was just on, but....Poe was in a position to demand nothing. Morale in the fleet was low? In large part, because of Poe's actions.

Belief that there was a spy or some other means of getting intel to the First Order was not an unreasonable assumption, because the First Order had followed the Resistance, and when Rose and Finn put together their theory and took it to Poe...he didn't bother to tell anyone in command until the poodoo was already well encrusted on the fan blades.

20 minutes ago, DaverWattra said:

If they'd said any of that at any point in the movie--like "We're looking for a First Order spy, so some information is bridge officers only"--that would have fixed the problem.

To me that would be like having cops in a movie say - everyone, remember to keep details of our investigation to ourselves, so as not to tip off suspects. That is, it would have been blatantly stating something that is trivially obvious. It would have made for a worse movie.

8 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

Morale in the fleet was low? In large part, because of Poe's actions.

Sure, but that doesn't mean Holdo had no responsibility to try to correct the morale problem.

I absolutely agree that Poe was behaving stupidly. In fact, I found it rather unbelievable given how positively his character was portrayed in Ep 7 (including his intelligence). But a smart commander should know how to handle a stupid subordinate, including minimizing the effects on morale by reassuring the rest of the crew.

2 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

To me that would be like having cops in a movie say - everyone, remember to keep details of our investigation to ourselves, so as not to tip off suspects. That is, it would have been blatantly stating something that is trivially obvious. It would have made for a worse movie.

If she had given a morale-boosting speech to the crew, saying "we're working on a plan that we're confident will save us, but it has to be kept secret for now," that would not have been trivially obvious or made the movie worse.

2 minutes ago, DaverWattra said:

If she had given a morale-boosting speech to the crew, saying "we're working on a plan that we're confident will save us, but it has to be kept secret for now," that would not have been trivially obvious or made the movie worse.

It would just be stating bluntly in dialogue something that can be inferred from the action on screen. Yes, that would have been worse. It's exactly the sort of thing that gets movies criticized for being dumbed down.

Just now, Stan Fresh said:

It would just be stating bluntly in dialogue something that can be inferred from the action on screen. Yes, that would have been worse. It's exactly the sort of thing that gets movies criticized for being dumbed down.

I don't agree that it can be inferred from the action on screen.

The Rebel Alliance was never worried about Imperial spies making it into the squadrons' briefing rooms in the OT and then signaling the Death Star. Dodonna and Ackbar didn't hide their battle plans' details from the rank and file. In Ep IV they gave a whole briefing in front of Luke, a random guy Leia had just met. And in Ep VII they had another big old briefing where they went over the whole plan in front of a full room. It's just not an issue that's been raised in Star Wars previously, so it needed to be pointed out if it was supposed to be a relevant thing in this movie.

It's also a matter of story perspective. We primarily see Holdo and her actions from Poe's perspective, in which he sees himself as the aggrieved party. All other indications are that, from most of the group's perspective, she wasn't presenting a problem.

2 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

It's also a matter of story perspective. We primarily see Holdo and her actions from Poe's perspective, in which he sees himself as the aggrieved party. All other indications are that, from most of the group's perspective, she wasn't presenting a problem.

Again, except for the people who were mobbing the escape pods. And Rose, who had been guarding the escape pods (a sign of unfailing loyalty) was completely willing to go along with insubordination against Holdo.

Every indication is that morale on the ship was terrible, especially for a crew full of revolutionary idealists.

14 minutes ago, DaverWattra said:

The Rebel Alliance was never worried about Imperial spies making it into the squadrons' briefing rooms in the OT and then signaling the Death Star.

Um, I take it you missed the part in Return of the Jedi where someone dropped a dime on the Rebels and their fleet to the Emperor?

1 minute ago, Desslok said:

Um, I take it you missed the part in Return of the Jedi where someone dropped a dime on the Rebels and their fleet to the Emperor?

Maybe they should have been worried, but the point still stands: they weren't (or at least not on screen).

6 minutes ago, Desslok said:

Um, I take it you missed the part in Return of the Jedi where someone dimed out the Rebels and their fleet to the Emperor?

There's no indication in ROTJ that the Emperor's knowledge of the impending Rebel attack came from Imperial spies within the Rebellion. He knew about the attack because he allowed the Bothan spies to steal information about the new Death Star, he was smart enough to know that this would precipitate a Rebel attack, and then his Force foresight allowed him to predict when the attack would come (plus Vader knew when the Rebels arrived on Endor due to sensing Luke).

There was no indication of Imperial spies inside the Rebellion in ROTJ.

Edit: Yes, there were reports of the Rebel fleet massing near Sullust, but these reports could have come from Imperial scout ships or probes, or from Imperial operatives present on the planet.

2 hours ago, Jetpack said:

Sorry, but people who aren't white men get to be in these movies as well. I know, the horror, but you might feel better if you accept that now.

Yeaaa, that is an absolutely lazy defense. Do you see me criticizing any of the other characters who aren't white and male? Nope. I didn't have a problem with them. This purple haired imbecile was just awful though. Introduced out of nowhere, immediately fails horribly as a leader, then even utterly flubs her heroic sacrifice, because she was already staying behind on a doomed ship and then didn't take the ship on an attack run until after several hundreds of the people she was supposed to cover were already gunned down. This was just an utterly awful character who failed at everything she did, and the way the movie tried to make her seem righteous was by simply not having her tell her crew where they are headed so they can look stupid for trying to actually do something. For that matter, they now don't have any alien main characters except for Chewie because apparently it's more important to put humans with all hair colors in the movie than maybe have an alien or two in a Star Wars movie.

27 minutes ago, DaverWattra said:

I don't agree that it can be inferred from the action on screen.

The Rebel Alliance was never worried about Imperial spies making it into the squadrons' briefing rooms in the OT and then signaling the Death Star. Dodonna and Ackbar didn't hide their battle plans' details from the rank and file. In Ep IV they gave a whole briefing in front of Luke, a random guy Leia had just met. And in Ep VII they had another big old briefing where they went over the whole plan in front of a full room. It's just not an issue that's been raised in Star Wars previously, so it needed to be pointed out if it was supposed to be a relevant thing in this movie.

In none of these situations had the enemy just displayed the ability to track their movements in a devastatingly surprising manner and thus suggested the strong possibility of a spy in their ranks.

Yes the Emperor knew. But then Vader rolls in with "Hey man, I've got reports of Rebel activity. Should we be concerned?" - that's a secondary source, apart from what the emperor knew.

Worried or not clearly espionage and counter-espionage happen. Were the Rebels worried? Who knows - but with such important bait, they had to jump on it regardless if The Empire knew they were coming or not. Vice Admiral Redshrt had different goals than they did at Endor and knew that there was a very high probability of a leak somewhere. I'm as un-military as you can get and even I know that you want to play your cards close to your chest in that situation.

1 hour ago, DaverWattra said:

There are actually some important things left out of this description of the situation, namely: Morale on the ship is so bad that people are mobbing the escape pods and guards with stunners are necessary just to keep crew from deserting.

Why didn't Holdo just tell the whole crew about her plan, or at least tell the whole crew that there was a plan that would get them all out of this alive (as opposed to just saying "We must have hope" in a way that strongly suggested to anyone listening that there was no plan)?

An answer that's been floated in this thread before is: She didn't tell the crew because First Order spies might be planted in the Resistance, and these spies might communicate her plan to the FO ships.

But this answer has a serious problem: Any such spies would also be able to signal the FO once everyone started piling into transports and abandoning the cruiser. The plan could hardly be kept secret from spies once it was actually set in motion. So if there were any FO spies on board, the whole Resistance was dead anyway.

Possibly, but angle is, only flight and ground crews would really know about the fuel transfer. When Poe attempts his mutiny, it's almost a done deal.

So... Let's say there was a spy who notifies the FO.

Possibility A) The spy is senior leadership or air crew. Since the flight deck and bridge took a hit in the proceeding battle, this is a small group. If the FO acted on it, then Holdo on would know there was a spy in one of those two groups.

B) The spy is not in one of those two groups, which means he doesn't find out the plan till it's time to board the shuttle. If he notifies the FO now... Yeah not good for him.

By compartmentalizing the plan and practicing good operation security and securing the escape pods, Holdo ensured that if there was a spy, they'd either risk exposing themselves, or for reasons of self preservation not be able to notify the FO until the Resistance was in a position where they were no longer going to be trapped and eradicated.

On 12/28/2017 at 2:14 AM, OddballE8 said:

Wow, that was almost exactly my take on the movie.

1 hour ago, Desslok said:

Yes the Emperor knew. But then Vader rolls in with "Hey man, I've got reports of Rebel activity. Should we be concerned?" - that's a secondary source, apart from what the emperor knew

I don't see that scene that way. It seems to me like Vader is reminding the Emperor of something he already knows about ["What of the reports of the rebel fleet massing near Sullust?"]. This is implying either a past conversation (off-screen obviously), or knowledge Vader is assuming the Emperor possesses already (whether he does or not). Just my opinion.

I loved the film! Brilliant subversions of classic Star Wars tropes. It was fresh and honest. And so funny!

Only thing I would change: Phasma would have a magenta bladed energy weapon, and lose her helmet, revealing long red hair and jade-green eyes.

10 hours ago, Aetrion said:

chucking huge hyperdrive missiles at each other from extreme distance.

Like Starkiller base did? Oh, wait! It was already established in universe.

10 hours ago, Aetrion said:

General Gender Studies was absolutely horrible,

Also, the fact that a post containing this actually gets likes and the poster then has the guts to say he wasn’t being sexist is a sad commentary on what is wrong with society in general and fandom specifically.

What’s next? Complaining about Finn using the n-word but not being racist?

4 hours ago, Mychal'el said:

I loved the film! Brilliant subversions of classic Star Wars tropes. It was fresh and honest. And so funny!

Only thing I would change: Phasma would have a magenta bladed energy weapon, and lose her helmet, revealing long red hair and jade-green eyes.

I have yet to watch this movie and it's getting to the stage of why bother but as to that alteration to Phasma you mentioned?

Oh yes that would be great!?

51 minutes ago, copperbell said:

I have yet to watch this movie and it's getting to the stage of why bother but as to that alteration to Phasma you mentioned?

Oh yes that would be great!?

Honestly despite a million spoilers I still loved it. Don’t miss out on seeing a great film.

1 hour ago, copperbell said:

I have yet to watch this movie and it's getting to the stage of why bother

Because you cannot have others tell you whether or not you like a movie.