52 minutes ago, DaverWattra said:

So if you will only accept a good systematic comparison, I respect your standards of evidence but there is no way to meet them with the information we have in hand.

If there is no way to meet them, then how can you believe you are making a case, and/or why bother to continue to try? That's the crux of the matter. You're putting the premise before the data aka cart before the horse. Your premise relies on a lot of "ifs", and no way to verify.

This poll conversation is dumb.

TLJ compared to TFA has grossed 30% less money despite showing on 4232 screens as opposed to 4134 for TFA.

The movie is disliked by more than some shadowy troll bot cabal despite what the overly emotional here might assert.

Feel free to track on box office mojo if you like, unless that's considered another den of heresy by the devout....

Obviously some people dislike it. Some dislike Casablanca and the Finney Murder on the Orient Express.

And I find the comments about "overly emotional" and "devout" to be interesting. If liking The Last Jedi makes me "devout" and "overly emotional", then feel free to tag me if that makes you feel better. Seems like an odd reaction, but what the hey. And I think you think the poll conversation is dumb, as you don't like the results. The more scientific the poll, the less the results fit what you want.

I will say, I've never used Box Office Mojo, so I don't believe it's a den of heresy. I'll ask the Ordo Hereticus to check on that for you. I see that it's making less than TFA. That doesn't really shock me, as TFA was the first Star Wars movie in how long? Last Jedi is the 3rd in 2 years. Should have some degrading in sales due to more SW movies coming out after each other. Numbers are what they are, so not for me to disagree with them.

8 minutes ago, Jetpack said:

And I find the comments about "overly emotional" and "devout" to be interesting.

Interesting, and revealing. That's the language of someone not interested in honest discussion but in casting people who disagree with him as hysterical and fanatical and thus compromised.

7 hours ago, themensch said:

It seems like a lot of folks decrying TLJ won't admit that Lucasfilm approved all this. I think LFL has come to realize that "haters gonna hate" and that no movie they make will bring back the joy 6-year-old me had seeing A New Hope in the theater for the first time, and trying is futile.

I dunno, I’m still seeing new movies that give me joy. Avatar, for all its faults, still made me a believer in the world and care about the fate of the protagonists. Casino Royale is a masterpiece of reinventing a stale franchise (the follow-ups have not succeeded on the same artistic level despite the box office) and an excellent movie to boot.

9 hours ago, DaverWattra said:

On the contrary, after the prequel trilogy, Star Wars fans were mad and rightly so. Disney set out to address the fan complaints in the new movies and have largely succeeded, leading to better movies.

I am not saying listen to every last fan criticism, I'm saying listen to the reasonable ones.

The prequels are terrible movies. But you know, 2 out of 3 of the new disney star wars movies are BORING movies. I take the prequels any day before that.

Though to be honest:

TCW is much better than the prequel movies AND Rebels is much better than Rogue One. So I am not even sure if focusing or caring to much about the movies is important at all. Because as long as we have Filonie doing a new season each year, we should get our star wars fix regardless of the movie quality anyway. Though I have a hard time to imagine an interesting series in the new first order era … but hey, maybe Filoni surprises us and will make something interesting even out of that era. Or we get more stuff in the OT era or even old republic style, who knows. Lucasfilm Animation seems to be the forge for the best star wars experience since at least a decade.

I actually even liked Strange Magic.
Sweet little movie for kids.

I don't know which I like more, the movie or how much people hate it!

4 hours ago, Jetpack said:

Obviously some people dislike it. Some dislike Casablanca and the Finney Murder on the Orient Express.

And I find the comments about "overly emotional" and "devout" to be interesting. If liking The Last Jedi makes me "devout" and "overly emotional", then feel free to tag me if that makes you feel better. Seems like an odd reaction, but what the hey. And I think you think the poll conversation is dumb, as you don't like the results. The more scientific the poll, the less the results fit what you want.

I will say, I've never used Box Office Mojo, so I don't believe it's a den of heresy. I'll ask the Ordo Hereticus to check on that for you. I see that it's making less than TFA. That doesn't really shock me, as TFA was the first Star Wars movie in how long? Last Jedi is the 3rd in 2 years. Should have some degrading in sales due to more SW movies coming out after each other. Numbers are what they are, so not for me to disagree with them.

We aren't talking about a smidgen, it's on track to make 3/4 of a billion less than TFA. That's not a troll bot hiccup, that's not a niche, or a minority. If a more illustrative comparison is needed, after 13 days of release for the 2 films based on average ticket price as reported by national assoc a theatre owners, TFA had seated 74.6 million butts in seats. TLJ has seated 49.8 million butts in seats, with a hundred more theaters showing TLJ. This movie is not an A movie according to the fans, I'm not arguing about anymore polls, those numbers represent $ and @$$es in seats, and they are the most accurate imo. In addition Empire made more than Ep4, and Return more than Empire. To also be clear the side of this discussion that brought up poll accuracy wasn't the side that disliked the film and I said pages and pages ago money talks and it's talking.

Hello guys ...

I am a huge Star Wars fan and kind of obsessed with those cute little creatures of the galaxy far far away.

I was looking for an outerwear inspired by them and have come up with this hoodie... https://imgur.com/GX0uh2T

Any idea about the site offering it....???

7 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

Interesting, and revealing. That's the language of someone not interested in honest discussion but in casting people who disagree with him as hysterical and fanatical and thus compromised.

Not surprised to read him use those terms. Remember we are talking about someone who reported me for saying I found a certain general trend sexist. Usually one reads what others say in one’s own voice and this is clearly no different.

We have been discussing this “divide” very unemotionally and have only questioned the metrics used. Yet here he is trying to smear those who are not interested in this rhetoric as “over emotional” and “devout” and thus invalidating their side of the discussion by employing ad hominem arguments.

Add to that the fact that the only box office results quoted are the ones feeding his narrative and not those that invalidate it. Nevermind that it had the second largest Christmas day showing ever (only TFA dis better) or that the even his own source discusses the fall off and explains why that is happening and why it will pick up again (http://www.boxofficemojo.com/news/?id=4356&p=.htm), no it is those who liked it that cherry picked unimportant metrics such as polls and undoctored scores.

I didn't like the movie, too many problems with it to justify the high scores reviewers have given it.

More Than Anything This Has Destroyed My Faith In Movie Reviewers. Early Reviewers Rely On The Access That Studios Give Them, They Are Not Totally Impartial As Angering A Studio Will Have A Direct Impact On Their Career. Maybe angering Disney-fox was too much of a career risk.

2 minutes ago, mulletcheese said:

More Than Anything This Has Destroyed My Faith In Movie Reviewers. Early Reviewers Rely On The Access That Studios Give Them, They Are Not Totally Impartial As Angering A Studio Will Have A Direct Impact On Their Career. Maybe angering Disney-fox was too much of a career risk.

So... all critics are part of a silent conspiracy?

2 hours ago, mulletcheese said:

I didn't like the movie, too many problems with it to justify the high scores reviewers have given it.

More Than Anything This Has Destroyed My Faith In Movie Reviewers. Early Reviewers Rely On The Access That Studios Give Them, They Are Not Totally Impartial As Angering A Studio Will Have A Direct Impact On Their Career. Maybe angering Disney-fox was too much of a career risk.

Nope, this doesn’t hold true if you look at the median Disney reviews.

Pirates of the Caribbean 5 sits at Metascore of 39 an a RT of only 30%

Beauty and the Beast sits at a passable Metascore of just 65 and an RT score of 71%

Cars 3? A 59 and a 68...

So either there is no conspiracy at all or it would be confined to movies you don’t like. Ockham’s razor says you just don’t like a generally well reviewed movie.

It happens to everyone.

Reviews I saw suggested it was a very good movie, not without flaws, that was true to characters, and all the main characters had story arcs, but that it took risks and moved in a direction that will upset some fans.

Being fully aware of hypocritical and potentially insulting this is going to sound; this movie has convinced me that Star Wars fans have terrible taste in movies.

Because this one is going to be seen as one of the greats, probably rivalling ESB.

That said, while I like the arc, some of the minutiae of the Poe/Holdo conflict bugs me to no end.

In their first interaction, Poe manages come off as an asshat by walking up to a superior officer (by a rather large margin) with a proven service record (acknowledged by himself) and mansplain the crap out of the fleet's situation despite him being a fighter jock and she a fleet officer. He gets rightfully dressed down for this and sent to his room.

Later on he, barges in the bridge, spots a detail of her plan, jumps to a (admittedly not too far-fetched) conclusion, and is distraught enough about it to accuse her of treason. Now, Holdo could:
1. Dress him down again and throw him in the brig to stop him from causing trouble and further wrecking the morale on board (which, judging from Poe, should be pretty close to the breaking point already).
2. Reassure him, by telling him the plan or (since at this point, he really hasn't given her any reason to trust him) simply reassure him that there in fact is a plan that he has not made fully aware of.
3. Give him a flowery metaphor about hope being like the sun and then throw him off the bridge when throws a hissy fit.

I'm no expert, but even when your subordinate is being an ***, 3 is probably not how you act as a leader toward scared and panicky people.

Later on, when they're literally on the threshold of boarding the shuttles, and Poe is desperate enough to commit mutiny, she again does not try to talk him down from it by revealing or even alluding to her plan. She really must hate his guts! It's not like he hasn't given her reason to by going behind her back and acting what could generously be described as a petulant child, but she apparently she really loathes...

"What a troublemaker. I like him!"

What?

Were you just trolling him or what? Listen Holdo, I love you in all your purple haired, evening gowned, starship captaining badassery but that is not how you leadership!

And when he does finally learn of the plans he tells Finn over the radio and thus the cloaked ships are betrayed by the person listening in. Will Poe escape court martial or will that fact never come out?

3 hours ago, mulletcheese said:

I didn't like the movie, too many problems with it to justify the high scores reviewers have given it.

More Than Anything This Has Destroyed My Faith In Movie Reviewers. Early Reviewers Rely On The Access That Studios Give Them, They Are Not Totally Impartial As Angering A Studio Will Have A Direct Impact On Their Career. Maybe angering Disney-fox was too much of a career risk.

So critics apparently want no access to Warner Brothers movies, then? Or are their unfavorable reviews of WB's DC Comics franchise all part of the same Great Critics-Are-In-Disney's-Pocket Conspiracy that the proponents of those movies cling to and you put forth here?

42 minutes ago, Darzil said:

And when he does finally learn of the plans he tells Finn over the radio and thus the cloaked ships are betrayed by the person listening in. Will Poe escape court martial or will that fact never come out?

Yeah, I've been thinking about this.

It's hard to pin down the blame on this one. Had Poe been clued in on the full plan, or even that there was a plan, he might've been more tight lipped about it. Had Finn not taken the call on speakerphone without mentioning that there was a guy in the backseat listening in, maybe it could have been avoided as well. Poe and Finn (and possibly Rose), share the blame on this, but I think the fault is more on the Finn/Rose end, than Poe.

For dramatic reasons, I would have made it so it was more obviously Finn/Rose's mistake than Poe's, as Poe screwed up enough by getting the bombers killed and mutinying. Had Poe told Finn/Rose in confidence and they had then accidentally or intentionally passed it on to DJ, it would tie in closer with their mistake in trusting him. Poe would still be accountable for telling Finn, but there really hasn't been any reason to question Finns loyalty (but perhaps his confidence).

Then again, as Poe knows Finn and Rose is going to board the same ship as Kylo Ren is on, and Poe knows from experience what Kylo's interrogations are like, you could still question Poe for telling them. Of course, with the information he had, the point of secrecy would be nearly moot, as it would be a death sentence to get in the shuttles regardless. Which maybe Holdo should've have realized and maybe let on that she had more of a plan than to get into the lifeboats and pray, lest her subordinate do something rash and desperate.

Arrgh. What a Custerfluck. It's like these people are more like a rag-tag bunch of rebels than an actual well-oiled military machine.

Poor communication kills, people!

Regardless, I am looking forward to seeing more of DJ, as he could pretty much show up on either (or neither) side.

5 minutes ago, penpenpen said:

It's like these people are more like a rag-tag bunch of rebels than an actual well-oiled military machine.

Poor communication kills, people!

While I agree in theory, both Holdo and Poe are experienced with the chain of command and the compartmentalization of information. The later being more important than the former especially since the resistance is so small. The only way I can reconcile this is I think Poe just panicked.

Just my opinion though.

24 minutes ago, JorArns said:

While I agree in theory, both Holdo and Poe are experienced with the chain of command and the compartmentalization of information. The later being more important than the former especially since the resistance is so small. The only way I can reconcile this is I think Poe just panicked.

Just my opinion though.

Very true, but that would also fault Holdo for just letting anyone walk into the command center and spotting (part of) her plan. If Poe couldn't be trusted enough to be let in on the plan, why was he let in the room?

And I agree, he panicked, and no one was there to offer leadership.

I'd chalk this up to a series of minor mistakes ending in a major disaster, as these things often are.

12 hours ago, SEApocalypse said:

TCW is much better than the prequel movies AND Rebels is much better than Rogue One.

Man, this is the second time I've heard views like this here and I honestly don't know what to make of them.

Of course Clone Wars is better that TPM and AOTC, so is Troll 2. I actually enjoy a lot of episodes of Clone Wars, it had good ideas, but it suffers from poor animation, low quality voice acting and stereotypical kid's show characterization and dialogue-level writing. I actually like Revenge of the Sith better than Clone Wars; General Grievous is almost unwatchably annoying in ROTS, but at least the movie has some real Ian McDiarmid acting in the Coruscant opera scene. I don't understand how anyone can enjoy Clone Wars and then turn around and say (as I see people say sometimes here) that Rogue One had weak characters or that Jyn Erso was a boring character. Characterization in Clone Wars: "I like this boy, but oh no, Steela Gerrera likes him too and he likes her back! This love triangle will not be developed any further." Characterization in Rogue One: "It's not a problem if you don't look up." A single line that speaks volumes about Jyn and her life up to that moment.

The only worthwhile things about Rebels for an adult audience are that it introduced Thrawn into canon and filled in some of the history of the Alliance. It's a solid show for 10-year-olds, but it comes nowhere near accomplishing what the few truly great kids' shows accomplish in including characterization and story that should matter to adult viewers (I'm thinking of shows like Avatar The Last Airbender, Captain Power and the Soldiers of the Future, and yeah, Clone Wars achieves some limited success in this regard). Rebels is a pale shadow of Clone Wars, which was really only good in the first place by comparison with the prequels.

Rogue One lives within a category of films that also includes classics like Star Trek 2: The Wrath of Khan and The Hunt For Red October--action/adventure movies of limited ambition, but which are basically flawless within their limited scope, which inspire you to care about the people on screen in a handful of tightly-written character-building scenes, and then deliver lucid, powerful action with a strong sense of emotional investment in the conflict. My girlfriend cried the whole last 15 minutes of Rogue One as the people she had come to care about died one by one. The film is a tour de force, although still not quite on the same level of the original trilogy.