2 hours ago, Endersai said:

Also, why is it 99.9% of people who have issues with Rey and call her a Mary Sue are male?

Not at all telling, lads.

Very true, the misogyny of male fans definitely plays into the rejection of female leads because they are repulsed by the idea of one and don’t make the same allowances for them that they do for male leads or characters.

what I do have to disagree with is that misogynistic fans make up 99.9% of these dissenters. This may just be based on my own experiences since I don’t talk to many white men outside of this, but I’ve found that a great deal of people who disliked ray were women and men of color who saw a white woman in a role as just being same old same old. These same people also had similar complaints with furry road because it was again a movie and a character being praised for being a woman but ignoring the fact that she is a white woman, which is nothing revolutionary, espeacially when roles by actors of color and actresses of color are sidelined in favor of a white actress.

Tldr: even though misogyny plays a great part in the dislike of ray, my experience tells me that among people of color simply having a white woman is not enough for us to care any more and expecting us, and espeacially woc, to feels too much like being told to wait our turn for progress

Though I agree with Maelora on a lot of her points about Rey, I still thought Rey was a good character in 7 and 8, with an emotional vulnerability that worked as a good counterbalance to her natural protagonist excellence. She was one of the only things I liked about episode 8. I enjoyed her relationship with Finn in episode 7, it was human and witty, and it was one of the only things I liked in that movie. I missed the three leads interacting with each other while I watched The Last Jedi, especially since I hated nearly every attempt at humor in that movie; it felt forced.

Still, Rey does seem like a bit of a Mary Sue to me (as far as gender goes, I always thought that the phrase "Mary Sue" worked equally well for any gender: I don't like Superman because he is a Mary Sue), but I find that to be a problem that is indicative of this new trilogy and not specific to her. Luke was training in the Falcon before he ever used the Force for anything or before he used a lightsaber in combat, I thought that scene implied there was more training off-screen, but that could just be me projecting. But now a stormtrooper janitor can fight with a lightsaber almost as well as Kylo Ren, who was trained by Luke and Snoke. The same janitor is also immune to the dangers of crashing, it would seem. And the scripts for both movies make Poe Dameron such a ridiculously superior fighter pilot you wonder why he isn't sent to fight the entire First Order fleet by himself. The new protagonist, Rose, I think? Is a plumber who also happens to be mechanical engineer, a superlative horse rider, a solid pilot, and a quick-draw expert good enough to get the jump on the janitor who could fight one on one with Kylo Ren.

I like all of these characters, with the possible exception of Rose, who I found to be boring after the scene that introduced her. And I understand the necessity to have them be extremely skilled at what they do in these movies. But it just feels unearned, like Mary Sue is now the starting point for all Star Wars heroes. It's not just that Luke and Anakin receive more training then Rey (they do), but this new era seems to heavily imply that you really don't need any training to use the Force or wield a lightsaber. I assume Oliver Twist the Force Witch isn't getting trained by the psycho space-horse beater before the former pulls the broom into his hand.

Speaking of force jokes, Finn the janitor, with anti-jedi hand to hand combat and about 20 years of training as stormtrooper in the first order. Yeah, Finn likes to downplay his position in the first order, but it does not look like his unit was a unit of janitors now, right? They seemed to be elite, green horns sure, but elite. Decades of training, education and apparently technical jobs in the main installations of the first order. Remember, palpatine's empire put children in their military academies to work already as well.

10 hours ago, Vorzakk said:

Is there some special cut where he makes a failed first attempt? (I'm not trying to be snide, I'm actually asking; I loose track of all of these deleted scenes and special editions).

I could swear he misses with his first shot, but it is entirely possible I am misremembering, and that just Mary-Sues him up that much more!

The lesson here is that the Force is no joke, people.

Edit: You are in fact correct. Luke only has one shot.

@SEApocalypse you thought that was forced? Man, I'll have to work on my routine. Even the Force Awakens plays his position as a janitor for laughs. I don't know what he did for 20 years, but I doubt it was training with a lightsaber. I don't know if his unit was made up entirely of janitors, but he was certainly a janitor and he doesn't bother to defend his apparent lack of expertise to Han Solo. I also don't know what you are referring to when you write that his unit seems to be made up of elites, I didn't get that impression.

I have no problem with Finn being portrayed as proficient with stormtrooper weapons, but his handiness with a lightsaber helped me come to the conclusion that in this trilogy you don't need any special training to wield one. If it were a card game, it would be called power creep.

A Mary Sue is an idealized and seemingly perfect fictional character. Often, this character is recognized as an author insert or wish fulfillment.[1] They can usually perform better at tasks than should be possible given the amount of training or experience. Sometimes, the name is reserved only for women, but more often the name is used for both genders. A male can also be referred to as a Gary Stu, but Mary Sue is used more commonly. [2][3]

11 hours ago, Maelora said:

This came to mind for me:

TLDR; Luke starts off green and has to get awesome over three movies. Rey starts off and remains awesome because reasons.

Of course, Your Mileage May Vary, and that's absolutely fine too. It's just an opinion.

ok the second point on the Rey list is complete and utter BS and why is her beating a badly wounded apprentice in a fight stupid?

15 minutes ago, RogueCorona said:

ok the second point on the Rey list is complete and utter BS and why is her beating a badly wounded apprentice in a fight stupid?

Because she got Force thrown and slammed against a tree 20 feet in the air and dropped like a wet bag of laundry? Which probably would've broken both her legs and likely her back?.........just saying........I actually like Rey, but that's a pretty good reason why she wouldn't have been able to walk, let alone fight, which I could see someone taking issue with.

36 minutes ago, bloody malth said:

I don't know … he was certainly a janitor …

Yeah, about that. So the first order trains their janitors in anti-lightsaber combat techniques with their "stun-batons" and sends them out against rebels and onto critical missions. Heck, those first order Janitors apparently are officer material, because that was Phasma's plan for Finn, until he failed to fire his weapon twice in a row. ;-)

Remember FN-2199 'nines'?

Quote

FN-2199 served in the First Order in the decades after the Galactic Civil War. Training in the FN Corps alongside FN-2000 ("Zeroes"), FN-2003 ("Slip"), and FN-2187 ("Eight-Seven"), he took the nickname "Nines" because he liked the sound of it. They trained under Captain Phasma, practicing in simulated combat for most of their lives. During their first deployment, the FN Corps was brought to the mining facility in Pressy's Tumble, an asteroid field, and ordered to kill the workers that had gone on strike. Initially reluctant, Nines followed as ordered once Slip and Zeroes opened fire.^[1]

And the best part? The janitor was in charge of him.

Quote

Later on, the trainees fight with vibro-axes and other melee weapons, some of which can even combat lightsabers.

Finn had more lightsaber combat training then Rey, but letting yourself getting guided by the force works better for those.

39 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

Yeah, about that. So the first order trains their janitors in anti-lightsaber combat techniques with their "stun-batons" and sends them out against rebels and onto critical missions. Heck, those first order Janitors apparently are officer material, because that was Phasma's plan for Finn, until he failed to fire his weapon twice in a row. ;-)

Remember FN-2199 'nines'?

And the best part? The janitor was in charge of him.

Finn had more lightsaber combat training then Rey, but letting yourself getting guided by the force works better for those.

What? I assume that must be from supplementary material somewhere because it isn't in the Force Awakens or The Last Jedi. It goes a long way toward explaining Finn's ability to fight against a lightsaber (but not with one), but neither film bothers to do that.

As I said, in TLJ it became a joke, Finn claiming that he is just a Janitor and has access to Snokes Flagship AND Starkiller base based on just that.
In TFA I always had it taken as a form of defense from Finn, claiming that he was not really part of the first order, just some janitor.
Finn's backstory is in "Before the Awakening". But yeah, having all this not even one bit in tfa AND making something which becomes basically an inside joke for those in the know ... not helpful.

9 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

As I said, in TLJ it became a joke, Finn claiming that he is just a Janitor and has access to Snokes Flagship AND Starkiller base based on just that.
In TFA I always had it taken as a form of defense from Finn, claiming that he was not really part of the first order, just some janitor.
Finn's backstory is in "Before the Awakening". But yeah, having all this not even one bit in tfa AND making something which becomes basically an inside joke for those in the know ... not helpful.

And if I remember correctly, "Before the Awakening" (which I clearly haven't read) was published concurrently with the release of The Force Awakens opening in theatres, right? So it wasn't like it was some random author retconning silly parts of Finn's character, this was a part of Finn from the beginning. Thank you for the information, although, as you wrote, leaving it out of the films wasn't helpful. I don't think it would hurt the character to impart some explanatory backstory instead of yet another scene of him being the butt of the joke.

Release date for "Before the Awakening" December 18, 2015
Released date for "The Force Awakens" December 18, 2015, outside of a few countries which had the movie one day earlier.

So it was a same day release for the most part.

For Rey btw we get stuff like this:

Quote

At the beginning of Rey's story, she is scavenging from an old battle cruiser when a large storm forces her to retreat into the old walker where she lives. We find out Rey has mastered a flight simulator she found, learning all the scenarios on many different ships.

…

Defying Major Deso's orders, Poe embarks on a solo mission to track down the Yissira Zyde with the secret approval of his fellow squadron pilots Lieutenants Karé Kun and Iolo Arana.

Poe's eagerness to attack to first order instead of staying more reserved like the rest of the republic seems to be the reason WHY Leia recruited him in the first place. Besides his role in the republic military seems to just a leader of an squadron consisting of a single flight with two elements, so 3 pilots under him. He got promoted pretty quickly and pretty hard in the resistance ...

Ok guys i just saw it and want to tell u my opinion and are happy to fiscuss with u aboit the movie

so if there is still someone who has not seen it, spoilers ahead!(but i wont go too much into detail)

And i just read the last page in this thread so sorry of i reopen something already closed...

Overall i liked the movie, i think it would be on a shared 4th place with episode 3. My all SW movies top list would be: 5, RO, 4, 3/8, 2, 6/1, 7

What was good:

+the places: cool planets casinos etc

+a lot of twists and surprises

+great flow and overall entertainment

+kylo ren developed awesome

What was bad:

- the storyholes. That hurt, so much. A single x wing f***ing a dreadnought, all the troopers around fyn and his friend during their execution disapear and waök back thrugh the smoke to them, if i can simply hyperspace ram every ship why are we doing it now and have never developed hyperspace-ram-weapons, why cant we follow ships through hyperspace anymore? RO to episode 4 has exactly this connection? And so on...

-no aliens in mainroles!! I cant undertsand people who are complaining about blackwhiteasienwomenman but dont complain about the lack of twileks zabraks nautolonians and the other 100 species!

-the lack of tension. U see a big ship and just think “uh this will blow up nicely “ in 4 and 5 a stardestroyer was scary, at least a little.

-the stretch of story. FO chasing the rebellion in slowmo for hours... a whole fleet has no way to stop them? A micro jump from 3 star destroyers to cut of the way? Some tie bombers with mines? Comon........

As i said it was good overall but at some scenes i was wondering if they just dont give a **** about logic or continuity or if they never have seen a sw movie

I am also happy that i dont hate rey anymore, she was not annoying anymore, her kylo interaction was quite cool, and that she can fight 5 red guards without lightsabre training, thats in this movie not a mary sue, it is just another story hole, and i guess the writers dont care, they say “we want a cool lightsabre fight so we make a cool fight“

I am kind of sad that snoke didnt got explained, and that fyn got his hero death denied, that would have been a kickass death, independence day style! But the explanation the woman gave was quite good! Btw how did they make it back to base? They where right in front of the enemy.

Sry for bad writing have to type everything on my phone without autocorrect!

Cheers!

4 hours ago, 2P51 said:

Because she got Force thrown and slammed against a tree 20 feet in the air and dropped like a wet bag of laundry? Which probably would've broken both her legs and likely her back?.........just saying........I actually like Rey, but that's a pretty good reason why she wouldn't have been able to walk, let alone fight, which I could see someone taking issue with.

It's very similar to what happens to Obi-Wan in Episode 3 when he fights Dooku. He gets Force-choked, thrown all across a big room, has his back smashed against a metal railing, falls another couple meters to the hard metal floor, then has an entire massive catwalk smashed into his prone body and is scraped across the floor by it.

He is knocked out for a couple minutes but is perfectly fine after that, showing no signs of injury, instead performing daring feats of acrobatics.

This complaint against Rey is silly in light of the way action has been depicted in Star Wars.

1 hour ago, Stan Fresh said:

It's very similar to what happens to Obi-Wan in Episode 3 when he fights Dooku. He gets Force-choked, thrown all across a big room, has his back smashed against a metal railing, falls another couple meters to the hard metal floor, then has an entire massive catwalk smashed into his prone body and is scraped across the floor by it.

He is knocked out for a couple minutes but is perfectly fine after that, showing no signs of injury, instead performing daring feats of acrobatics.

This complaint against Rey is silly in light of the way action has been depicted in Star Wars.

Action in 95% of movies, tbh.

Very few punches in the mouth end up with one broken hand and one broken jaw in the movies.

4 hours ago, Seguleh said:

-no aliens in mainroles!! I cant undertsand people who are complaining about blackwhiteasienwomenman but dont complain about the lack of twileks zabraks nautolonians and the other 100 species!

That's a valid point. I actually wondered why Rogue One didn't have more aliens, as they were clearly aiming for a rag-tag bunch of misfits like most RPG parties. But no, it's just humans and a droid again.

For better or worse, Star Wars (the movies at least) is about humans. The main movies are in fact a story about humanity's First Family, one that has a heavy destiny and powerful magical abilities by birthright. Even Han Solo has to marry into that dynasty to fulfil his destiny.

Aliens in Star Wars have always been background or scenery, or redshirts at worst. Even Chewbeccca and BB8 are, however cool they may be, just sidekicks with no comprehensible dialogue.

In the new trilogy, most of the main characters are First Family, so they have to be human. Finn's a stormtrooper so he has to be human. Really, only Poe (and maybe now Rose) could have been aliens. Maybe they should have been, but Star Wars is ultimately about humans and humanity's special dynasty. Contrast to something like 'Guardians of the Galaxy' where only the protagonist is human and his rag-tag band of Merry Men are all aliens.

19 minutes ago, Darzil said:

Action in 95% of movies, tbh.

Very few punches in the mouth end up with one broken hand and one broken jaw in the movies.

Or dying from infection because of a lock of antibiotics.

http://epmonthly.com/article/fite-bite/

Is this “is rey a m. sue“- thing still going on? I think everything to this discusiion has been said 3 times at least, and in the new movie there is lot of other stuff to be discussed.

For example why do we build deathstars if we can just build a hyperspace propulsion in a large asteroide and smack it into a planet...

2 hours ago, Seguleh said:

For example why do we build deathstars if we can just build a hyperspace propulsion in a large asteroide and smack it into a planet...

A little like the Galaxy Gun from Dark Empire 2 you mean (1994-1995)? Or Mass Drivers (which don't require fantasy hyperspace propulsion).

YMMV, but perhaps it's because the Death Star is as much about being a symbol of Terror as it is a superweapon. A Death Star allows you to carry an army with which to capture a planet you threaten. After you've sent a message by destroying a planet it is incredibly wasteful in terms of resources to keep destroying them, far better to subjugate the population under the threat of destruction if they resist.

It also seems that it could be difficult to get the 'hyperdrive asteroid into a planet' thing to be very effective given the relative mass and the difficulty of charting an accurate course (at least the movies seem to imply it is tricky to astrogate).

That's just my take though.

2 hours ago, Seguleh said:

For example why do we build deathstars if we can just build a hyperspace propulsion in a large asteroide and smack it into a planet...

Because you lose the engine every time, and it can't double as a battle station.

One engine for one capital ship or a planet or a space station? I take that exchange every time.

For troop transports there are easier ways, and more effective ones.

Also why havent they done it earlier? They got chased for... like a day or smth. And now one has the idea “hey i could hyperspace ram them“. Ok maybe they wanted to get rid of the hospital ship first... everybody knows how expensive health insurance is, and the resistance isn t that rich...

No seriously, i know it is just a movie, and things have to be cool and epic, but i feel they do it to much and kill the universe a bit with it. It is a sci fi fantasy universe, where u can hear in space, have space magic knights and WW2 fighter vs capital ship fights. But pulling sh** out of the hat when ever u need just makes it boring.

7 hours ago, Maelora said:

That's a valid point. I actually wondered why Rogue One didn't have more aliens, as they were clearly aiming for a rag-tag bunch of misfits like most RPG parties. But no, it's just humans and a droid again.

For better or worse, Star Wars (the movies at least) is about humans. The main movies are in fact a story about humanity's First Family, one that has a heavy destiny and powerful magical abilities by birthright. Even Han Solo has to marry into that dynasty to fulfil his destiny.

Aliens in Star Wars have always been background or scenery, or redshirts at worst. Even Chewbeccca and BB8 are, however cool they may be, just sidekicks with no comprehensible dialogue.

In the new trilogy, most of the main characters are First Family, so they have to be human. Finn's a stormtrooper so he has to be human. Really, only Poe (and maybe now Rose) could have been aliens. Maybe they should have been, but Star Wars is ultimately about humans and humanity's special dynasty. Contrast to something like 'Guardians of the Galaxy' where only the protagonist is human and his rag-tag band of Merry Men are all aliens.

Hmmm good points u make. But i think in a rebellion against a fashist new order that surpresses aliens, aliens should be a major role. It is like a march for equality in new Orleans without black people, but just white genderstudies students.

I always thought it is in the old movies because it is hard to visualize, and people dont like to look at aliens, but with new technology and movies like guardiens of galaxy, both is not realy a reason anymore.

I miss my aliens

36 minutes ago, Seguleh said:

But i think in a rebellion against a fashist new order that surpresses aliens, aliens should be a major role. It is like a march for equality in new Orleans without black people, but just white genderstudies students.

This is actually a huge plot point in our MarcyVerse game Twenty years after Alderaan, the Alliance are winning the Galactic Civil War, but at this point the White Genderstudies Students have pretty much taken over the faction, to the annoyance of everyone else...

1 hour ago, Seguleh said:

But i think in a rebellion against a fashist new order that surpresses aliens, aliens should be a major role. It is like a march for equality in new Orleans without black people, but just white genderstudies students.

The whole thing about the Empire / First Order being racist is really all EU, though. The Imperial military was entirely human, but so was the entire Rebel Alliance until the RotJ. Apart from the detention officer calling Chewbacca a 'thing', I can't think of anything in any movie which indicated that the either entity was anti-alien. Heck, the Emperor's top two advisers were both aliens.