33 minutes ago, Desslok said:

Counterpoint:

While I love to drink my special eggnog, eat my Wookiee-ookies and watch this every "Life Day", I like punishment apparently, the whole thing is cringe worthy, it is better than The Last Jedi however.

About Luke:

People who are upset that Luke wasn't more like Obiwan kind of missed the point of who Luke was in the OT. There's this weird translation probably most of us are guilty of having entertained: that Luke Skywalker was destined to become the master space wizard, wise and all-knowing and super powerful. Vader's comment in E4 "the Force is strong with this one" has been translated to mean "OMG this one is super duper!" Then he goes on to defeat Vader, then turn Vader, sealing the translation.

All the EU and video games ran with this translation, sealing it in the collective fan-base mind.

But it was always wrong.

Instead, all Vader's comment meant was "Huh, out of all these idiots out here, there's actually one with the Force. How did miss this guy in my purge? Well, 'bye Felicia!'"

And the only reasons Vader turned are: Luke was his son, son of Padme, the person for whom Vader gave up everything; and, Palpatine got a little too distracted playing with his new toy to keep the pressure on Vader (who'd just been offered up as sacrifice, BTW).

Being Vader's son was the key that Yoda was counting on. You must "confront" Vader, he says. Not "kill" or "defeat". Simply "confront". (Obiwan's a little more direct, but wrong...I guess Force ghosts don't know everything, he didn't know "there is another" for instance...) Nobody but Luke and Leia could have "confronted" Vader, because nobody else would be able to reach Vader on the emotional level needed to turn him. Everybody else would have had to go with outright conquest, and against the Emperor that would have been impossible. So the key was always to flip Vader.

Of course, Luke gets plenty of credit on his own. He sees the cycle at play when he sees Vader's hand is mechanical. He doesn't want to end up like Vader, so he breaks the cycle. That takes guts and insight. But in the end he's not really there because he's super wise and Jedi-like, he's there because of his connection to the target. It's easy to see how being the "great Luke Skywalker" could have gone to his head, and when he finally looks at himself, disgusted, he reverts back to "but I wanna go to Tosche Station!" whine boy.

And that's Yoda's point in TLJ, a scene which I really enjoyed. It takes away this ridiculous expectation of Luke turning into super-master, and points out that Luke is still Luke, doing many of the same Luke-things he's always done.

If this upsets you, you've turned Luke into some kind of god. I prefer my heroes more grounded, and so, apparently, did George Lucas (who showed how the whole Jedi Order was flawed), and the new story group seems to want to keep that going. I'm glad to see it.

I've always thought that while Luke was indeed a Jedi, he was never a particularly great Jedi. But, in spite of that, he was still very much a good hero.

From an interview in Wired:

Quote

Well, and you can tell me if I’m wrong here, but with The Last Jedi it felt like you were trying to push the idea of what a Star Wars movie could be a little bit further.

Johnson: That wasn’t a stated goal, pushing it forward or changing it or something. I just wanted to make a great Star Wars movie. The thing is I wanted to make a great movie also. That means creating drama with these characters, and that’s going to mean throwing tough stuff at them and taking it to new places. I wasn’t coming in thinking, “We gotta freshen this up! How do I evolve this?” That was the last thing on my mind. But I also came in trying to be unafraid of going to some places if that’s what the story ended up requiring.

14 hours ago, splad said:

And being condescending little sod all in one brush stroke. Talented aren't you lol

And we were doing so well weren't we?

Ah well, there's always one who won't play nicely.

4 hours ago, Desslok said:

Counterpoint:

It's funny, but I didn't hate the Holiday Special*. Or the Ewoks. Or JarJar. I didn't exactly love those things, but I understood them in their context and they didn't ruin Star Wars for me. Unlike many things that came after

For me, Force Unleashed was the barrel-scraping nadir, but the love-affair was long over by the time that came along.

(Until FFG rekindled it out of nowhere, anyway!)

I don't mind the new movies either way. I have no dog in that fight or much of a connection any more, so I just see them as blockbuster movies like any others.

(*It gave the Marcy Cinematic Universe the annual 'Mind Evaporator Awards', so I can't hate it even if I wanted to!)

7 minutes ago, Maelora said:

And we were doing so well weren't we?

Ah well, there's always one who won't play nicely.

Quite a few pages compared to the TFA one. That turned into a dying sea cow quickly.....

3 hours ago, whafrog said:

And that's Yoda's point in TLJ, a scene which I really enjoyed. It takes away this ridiculous expectation of Luke turning into super-master, and points out that Luke is still Luke, doing many of the same Luke-things he's always done.

If this upsets you, you've turned Luke into some kind of god. I prefer my heroes more grounded, and so, apparently, did George Lucas (who showed how the whole Jedi Order was flawed), and the new story group seems to want to keep that going. I'm glad to see it.

Keep in mind I'm still not a fan of this movie, but I really want to highlight this point here. This is exactly right, and Luke even says as much. He has a line during Rey's first "lesson" to the effect of, "Now that the Jedi are gone and people can't directly see how big of screw ups they could be sometimes, the galaxy has deified then in their minds. But that's not what the Jedi are. Never was." And that line wasn't meant just for Rey. It was also meant for the audience. We'd had 30 years to build up the Legend of the Great and Powerful Jedi Grandmaster Luke Skywalker! And as people tend to do, a lot of us blew him way out of proportion.

I did actually like nearly all of the scenes with Luke; the fact that it was interspersed with Mind-Skyping is the only reason the scenes on the island were sour for me. Luke's part of the story mostly made sense, and was fairly compelling.

1 minute ago, Maelora said:

For me, Force Unleashed was the barrel-scraping nadir, but the love-affair was long over by the time that came along.

See, I liked Force Unleashed for what it was: an over-the-top action game set in the Star Wars universe. If I were to attempt to place it in canon, I would probably just have it be a story told from Juno's perspective. As a person unfamiliar (most likely) with Jedi, most of Starkiller's actions would have appeared larger than life. Therefore, any 'Unleashed' insanity could be explained away as accidental exaggeration similar to the 'P.O.V.' episode of Batman the Animated series.

21 minutes ago, JorArns said:

See, I liked Force Unleashed for what it was: an over-the-top action game set in the Star Wars universe. If I were to attempt to place it in canon, I would probably just have it be a story told from Juno's perspective. As a person unfamiliar (most likely) with Jedi, most of Starkiller's actions would have appeared larger than life. Therefore, any 'Unleashed' insanity could be explained away as accidental exaggeration similar to the 'P.O.V.' episode of Batman the Animated series.

Why even attempt to place it in canon? To me it's pretty obvious that the whole "this game is totes canon!" angle the marketing went with was just that - marketing.

It's a video game. Of course things won't be just like in the movies. Different media with different storytelling requirements.

3 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

It's a video game. Of course things won't be just like in the movies. Different media with different storytelling requirements.

Of course different media have different storytelling requirements.

6 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

Why even attempt to place it in canon?

Perhaps I should have said my canon or my game's canon.

1 hour ago, Maelora said:

It's funny, but I didn't hate the Holiday Special*

Oh, I don't either - I'll never claim that it's GOOD or anything, but it is entertaining. Much like House of the Dead or Plan 9, all I require from a show/movie is that it entertains me. The quality can be complete shite for all I care.

18 hours ago, splad said:

Watch this then. They pretty much have the same point of view myself and a slew of other fans had in reaction to this movie

Ok.

1. Snoke. Having the wrong expectation what he would be, based on a mystery box from TFA. A lot of whining and praising JJ as brilliant for putting that bull mystery box there in the first place.
2. Rey's parents. Having the wrong expectation what itwould be, based on a mystery box from TFA. A lot of whining and praising JJ as brilliant for putting that bull mystery box there in the first place. "Huge disappointed, wasted time to think about it"
3. Leia using the force "She would be dead instantly", which is a complete wrong expectation about star wars AND real life physics. What are those guys, nerds or retards with no basic education at all?
4. Poe's is a hindrance. Another case of expectations.
5. Casino "Oh, no, I wanted Lando for more fan service" Why bring a new character in a galaxy with a trillion people on a single planet and billion colonized planets.
6. Luke is not the boy from 30 years ago. Having the wrong expectation what he would be, based on a mystery box from TFA. A lot of whining and praising JJ as brilliant for putting that bull mystery box there in the first place. The best part is those dorks assume that the eption to redeem Kylo Ren after he killed Billions would enough to never consider solving the problem right now, even when that though was just a second there.

"And then he dies of exhaustion" What a punch off ****** asshats. Those guys are a ******* waste of oxygen, Luke literally say that he will hunt Kylo forever. The more I hear of those clowns, the more angry I get at them and want to ***** slap some common sense into those *** hats.

Anyway, Splad, we better don't talk about the movie anymore. Though you made one thing clear: Some people don't like being wrong about something. And this movie did break a lot of expectation intentionally. Some really have a problem with managing their own expectations, assumptions and imagination. The movie really is not a very clever one, but it seems still to much for parts of the target audience. And the most fun part is that they gave the movie a 7/10 still

15 hours ago, Ireul said:

1) Thank you for telling my what my thoughts for the last few days have been. The wider point of the film was to subvert all the conventions of Star Wars. I got that; I just don't like it. Save it for an Anthology film.

2) I've explained this before, but you probably missed it, so here goes. That it's Rey's story is not the point. Luke in Empire spent his entire training making mistakes and failing. The cave? He gave in to his darker emotions - rage and fear. His vision? He ignored Yoda, ran off into a trap, lost his naivete about his father being a good man, lost a hand, and needed the friends he had gone to rescue to rescue him. And now, come TLJ, he has completely forgotten that his mistakes were what taught him his greatest lessons? Then, Luke in Jedi refused to give up on redeeming Vader, despite everyone telling him it was impossible. He succeeded. Now, come TLJ, the man who refused to give up on his father because he sensed scant good in him considered killing his nephew because he sensed darkness in him? Sorry, but that doesn't flow for me. I had expectations, they were simple - Luke grows to be like prequel-era Obi-Wan. Apparently I'm not pessimistic enough to be a Star Wars film writer though.

On 1 - it's not just the anti-dynastic bent, which needed to happen because when the Bearded One's work is examined it's a handful of effective blue bloods interacting through sheer, poorly written coincidence. (Oh, Chewie just happened to be there with Yoda during the Clone Wars? Bloody wow, who would have predicted tha...zzzzzz)

It is the message the OT delivered in spades, released from its bonds to ONE bloodline. Nobody can become somebody through deed, not blood. The entire mythology of the US is based on this premise (not the practical reality, mind you). Rey being nobody makes her position now, in a slightly theological way, the result of the Force's whims finding a suitable, worthy avatar. Had Rey not been Rey, would she have been entitled to power as Ben Solo was? No.

For me, Rey's basically my favourite film character now across all 5 of the good films (and I couldn't care less about the prequels) and I've been a fan since 1983, when I saw ANH on TV and Jedi in theatres. This isn't me dropping my fan wang for comparison; it's saying, over time, nobody has embodied the spirit as much as Rey has. Kyle Katarn was my previous favourite but Christ they butchered his story with Jedi Outcast...

2) I think you're again missing that Luke believed his own hype. He'd had such success defying convention and listening to his instinct that it lead him to hubris, and the failure with Ben. If you've never met an adult who has had shut down emotionally after a trauma of sorts - broken marriage, death of a parent or close friend, etc - then your life is missing an experience. It's not at all inconsistent, to me, with Luke's OT character. He was a young man then, and as youths we are full of confidence and bravado. And, arrogance. It's only with time, perspective and hopefully wisdom that we realise what we did poorly in that youth.

The idea that Luke could punish himself to Dark Knight Rises levels of contrition is not out of whack for me; his heroic response at the end also showed what could have been had it not been for his nephew and Snoke.

Do you want to know the thing that REALLY grinds my gears?

That these actresses all have makeup on; even when they are meant to be resistance fighters pushed flat against the wall, their makeup is immaculate. Rey's purple eye shadow is immaculately applied in each and every scene despite living with a bitter hobo, Princess Leia is all bandaged up one minute; yet sometime in the evacuation procedure she's had time to get all that stuff applied and to have her hair styled. I mean seriously; has censoring gotten so crazy that the ladies can't be looking a little plain for but a few scenes? It's an outrage!

XD I am joking of course, just figured I would point out one of the more interesting side effects of movies these days. One of my friends brought this thing up and while I didn't really notice it, she just commented that it made those characters less real within the world they apparently lived in.

9 minutes ago, LordBritish said:

Do you want to know the thing that REALLY grinds my gears?
That these actresses all have makeup on; even when they are meant to be resistance fighters pushed flat against the wall, their makeup is immaculate. Rey's purple eye shadow is immaculately applied in each and every scene despite living with a bitter hobo, Princess Leia is all bandaged up one minute; yet sometime in the evacuation procedure she's had time to get all that stuff applied and to have her hair styled. I mean seriously; has censoring gotten so crazy that the ladies can't be looking a little plain for but a few scenes? It's an outrage! XD I am joking of course, just figured I would point out one of the more interesting side effects of movies these days. One of my friends brought this thing up and while I didn't really notice it, she just commented that it made those characters less real within the world they apparently lived in.

You've evidently never seen the MarcyVerse

57 minutes ago, Maelora said:

You've evidently never seen the MarcyVerse

Characters in the MarcyVerse are always in such a rush, they can't even get their clothes on half the time!

Yet they still find a spare moment or twelve for make-up somehow...hmm... *

* All in jest of course! I love the MarcyVerse, nudity and all!

We're a very strange gender, huh? Priorities all wrong...

2 minutes ago, Maelora said:

We're a very strange gender, huh? Priorities all wrong...

Indeed so. And I wouldn't have us any other way!

19 minutes ago, LordBritish said:

XD I am joking of course, just figured I would point out one of the more interesting side effects of movies these days. One of my friends brought this thing up and while I didn't really notice it, she just commented that it made those characters less real within the world they apparently lived in.

We'd best not mention Kylo's shirtless scene then, huh?

Just now, Maelora said:

You've evidently never seen the MarcyVerse

Sadly I have not. From what I have heard it is quite a interesting place. Ahahah! Though I had heard that Kylo would fit right in!

I just meant to keep the conversations lighthearted; it can be a bit too heavy otherwise.

2 minutes ago, LordBritish said:

I just meant to keep the conversations lighthearted; it can be a bit too heavy otherwise.

I know You need a thick skin when you're a female GM mostly running games for gamer-guys. I'm not easily offended!

can someone explain what is the MarcyVerse?

My google-fu is weak, and I have the impression that I'm missing something great.

24 minutes ago, Maelora said:

You've evidently never seen the MarcyVerse

My daughter did observe it was fortunate the Force maintained Leia's hairdo after being blown up by anti ship missiles and decompressed into outer space......

6 minutes ago, Rithuan said:

can someone explain what is the MarcyVerse?

My google-fu is weak, and I have the impression that I'm missing something great.

@Maelora's real name is Marcy; she and her players have created an extensive alternate Star Wars universe for their games, and the artwork for it has become somewhat (in)famous around here .

It's not something you'll be able to Google, but if you can brave her DeviantArt page, you can get a fair number of the stories and images. Viewer beware, however; NSfW!