3 hours ago, Archlyte said:

Star Wars lives. I couldn't be more relieved.

Worst case scenario, there is always Legends.

4 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

The movie felt very much not aiming for cheap emotions based on nostalgia, but going forward and leaving the past behind.

I can see what you mean by it being about moving forward, but I would disagree on the bolded part.

• Binary Sunset at the end
• Artoo playing Leia’s message from a New Hope
• Snoke/Rey/Kylo scene parodying Palpatine/Luke/Vader scene

17 minutes ago, Yaccarus said:

I can see what you mean by it being about moving forward, but I would disagree on the bolded part.

• Binary Sunset at the end
• Artoo playing Leia’s message from a New Hope
• Snoke/Rey/Kylo scene parodying Palpatine/Luke/Vader scene

1) The literary poetic end sequence for Luke Skywalker, I am not sure if I would call this a cheap shot. ;-)
2) Immediately recognized as a cheap trick from R2 by Luke!
3) I would not call it a parody. It had a very different tone and a very different outcome, it's more like it mirrors and deconstructs the parts of the older movies. Or in case of TFA, calls out some bull. (Kylo's mask, Luke throwing away the lightsaber for example)

I did not say that it discards or destroys the old movies, but it moves forward. Kylo was trying to destroy the past, similar how Episode VII destroyed any achievement of the heroes of the past within 135 minutes. The Last Jedi is telling us that the victories of the past and as well our failures are not pointless, but are part of what can move us forward, especially our failures. As long as we can move forward.

The movie certainly was not dripping with nostalgia, but it certainly was not trying to destroy the past, but instead acknowledged it, in plot, musical themes, etc … it even gets into the prequels a little bit. If not for JJ, I would be looking right now very enthusiastic into the next movie.

That was probably one of the richest Star Wars movie yet, I can't remember the last time I felt so elated in the cinema before. It made a lot of daring choices, examining the series in ways that few have dare before. It is rich in themes which will probably keep me thinking for days.

It's essentially about young people trying to understand themselves and break old toxic cycles with the older generation passing the torch on and admitting their own mistakes so that the next generation does not have to suffer. It is about freeing yourself from blind obedience to tradition but instead working out the best new way to go. It is about the weight of legacy and the power of legends. To find final victory the Galaxy do not need to destroy their enemies but overcome the flaws in themselves.

It is about the power of Star Wars itself.

It kind of disappoints me that the next installment will be directed by JJ Abrams again. He is overly focused on structure and plot detail instead of the deeper meanings.

Also it saddens me that so much of what passes for criticism these days is little more than surface level nitpicking.

So I saw the movie this past Friday, and wanted to take some time to mull over what I've seen.

Maybe the reason the film isn't doing so well with fans is that The Last Jedi is ultimately a deconstruction of much of what we've seen in Star Wars in the past. The destruction of Anakin's lightsaber, one of the most iconic weapons in all of cinema, is a sign of that.

Poe, the hotshot military maverick, has his daring plans either fail entirely or carry such heavy consequences that they're pyrrhic victories at best (taking down the FO Dreadnought is a prime example), and in the end he has to come to grips with the fact that not every battle can be won, and that sometimes victory simply means surviving to fight another day.

Rey was presented as something of a new "chosen one," only to find out that ultimately she's got no special heritage or legacy beyond being sensitive to the Force, and it's her desire to do good that makes her a hero. To quote Albus Dumbledore, "it is our choices that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities." And to be honest, I loved that Rey's parents weren't anyone special, which makes her growing into the role of The Hero all the more important; this is a young woman that almost literally came from nowhere (or at least close enough to being nowhere) and has chosen to take up the mantle of the galaxy's new hope in the wake of Luke Skywalker fading into legend.

Luke is the hero of yesterday, suffering from a wicked case of PTSD due not only to the tragedy of loosing all those students by the knowledge that it was a brief moment of weakness that sparked that tragedy. And while I enjoyed his scenes, there was that deep sense of sadness that the hero many of us grew up with has now become a bitter old man in self imposed exile. At least he was able to overcome his own grief and bitterness to make one last appearance as the hero of old, making a dramatic stand against impossible odds all while making Kylo look like a fool during their duel. It certainly would have been something to see Jedi Master Luke in his prime, and what little he did towards the end certainly does seem to validate why the First Order (especially Snoke) did not want him to be found.

Kylo/Ben was itself a deconstruction of the "redeem the villain" plot arc, teasing the audience with the notion that maybe he can indeed be redeemed (after all, if Darth Vader can find redemption, why not Ben?) only for the film to twist the knife and have him double-down on being a villain. He had the ability to do what Vader never could, and usurp and slay his master (in a rather clever way too I might add, using Snoke's ability to read his thoughts as a smokescreen to catch the old guy by surprise). And continuing the trend in TFA, Kylo is still an emotionally immature individual, prone to rage and tantrums rather than the ominous presence that villains such as Vader had.

Snoke was also a deconstruction of the "Big Bad" style of villain, as well as being a dark reflection of Yoda in the old Jedi Master's role from ESB. What's important about Snoke (or Yoda) is the role they serve to their respective apprentices, not where they came from or what their full histories are. Speaking of Yoda, I liked the touch that they used the ESB-puppet appearance rather than the prequel-era CGI look, and that he was still the slightly-kooky mentor that we older fans know and remember fondly from the original trilogy.

The other thing about TLJ is that it very much feels like a "middle piece" of the trilogy, and without knowing how the rest of the story goes, that probably leaves the general movie-going audience unsure of what to think. A lot of what was set up in TFA has largely been jettisoned (New Republic is gone, Resistance is pretty much toast, First Order's had a major shake-up in terms of resources and leadership), so it'll be interesting (at the very least) to see where Episode 9 picks up. I'm doubting we're going to get any sort of true closure with Episode 9 (such as what we mostly got with RotJ), as in a way it feels like Disney is trying to set things up so that once Ep9 is released, it's an open springboard for stories to be told in that era.

10 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

I'm doubting we're going to get any sort of true closure with Episode 9 (such as what we mostly got with RotJ), as in a way it feels like Disney is trying to set things up so that once Ep9 is released, it's an open springboard for stories to be told in that era.

Considering that Episode IX is done by JJ, while the new trilogy will be done by Rian Johnson … I think it is a very good thing that we don't end with an Abrams star wars movie.
http://www.starwars.com/news/rian-johnson-writer-director-of-star-wars-the-last-jedi-to-create-all-new-star-wars-trilogy

14 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

Considering that Episode IX is done by JJ, while the new trilogy will be done by Rian Johnson … I think it is a very good thing that we don't end with an Abrams star wars movie.
http://www.starwars.com/news/rian-johnson-writer-director-of-star-wars-the-last-jedi-to-create-all-new-star-wars-trilogy

To be clear though, Johnson's new trilogy will not be a "Saga" film. to quote the article:

Quote

As writer-director of The Last Jedi, Johnson conceived and realized a powerful film of which Lucasfilm and Disney are immensely proud. In shepherding this new trilogy, which is separate from the episodic Skywalker saga, Johnson will introduce new characters from a corner of the galaxy that Star Wars lore has never before explored.

That being said, My mom and I just went to see TLJ this afternoon for my birthday (coming up the day after Christmas), and we loved it. I was blown away by it. The story was incredible, the acting was sublime, the characters were all brilliantly fleshed out, and Johnson brilliantly turned our expectations on their ear. I'm still digesting the movie. My mom loved the Porgs, and, of course, her favorite character showed up, making her very happy. I can't wait to see where they go from here.

I've seen people complaining about the Yoda cameo as being unnecessary fan service but it is critical to the point of the movie. It is the true passing of the torch, the literal ghost of the past turning up to admit their failure but also reassuring that things will be okay because the kids have got this.

Who knew in 2017 we'd get the Yoda redemption arc.

So I've been reading alot of people saying they're glad that the latest main protagonist of the Skywalker saga is a nobody. People praising Rian for including such a twist, because it's about who you are, not where you came from, etc. I don't get these arguments (though I'm open to explanations). Anakin was a nobody slave on a planet so far from the Republic, it's laws didn't exist there. He dreamed of leaving, becoming a Jedi, then returning to free ALL of the slaves. Anakin was the OG broomboi. And Qui-Gon wasn't interested in him because of his surname, but for the swirling Force around him. Luke was a moisture farmer on the edge of the Empire. He too, dreamed of leaving, of joining the Rebellion like his friends and fighting against tyranny. His being a Skywalker was only as important as far as family relations went. Sidious's interest lay only in he was a Jedi-in-training. Vader was interested because he could be a powerful asset, but the small part of Anakin left wished to have his son back. Obi-wan and Yoda didn't train him because he was a scion of a powerful Jedi - it's never mentioned in the OT how strong Luke actually is in the Force. They always talked of Luke confronting Vader, but never the Emperor. They also kept pushing for him to accept that Vader was irredeemable, thus the only way to end his evil was to kill him. They believed he was just the one who had got the best chance of getting close enough to Vader to off him.

Rian isn't breaking new ground by making Rey a nobody. Lucas has tread that ground so much he's paved it for a sidewalk.

I don't think anyone would disagree with you, although Luke actually was a somebody that was being hidden, which is why he was a moisture farmer.

I think it's more that people want to see that there are some other 'somebodies' that come from humble backgrounds beside the Skywalkers.

Could have had her be a Kenobi, Organa, heck, even an Amidala. Basically any recognizable surname would have been enough to quell the complaints. Star Wars is a classic fantasy story (or fairy tale as George likes to call it) based off the old Flash Gordon-style shows. Larger-than-life characters are a staple of those stories, so having Rey's parents be nobody junk traders, while fitting the deconstruction themes of the film, doesn't fit the style of the saga.

I don't know. I want to like it because it's Star Wars, but the more I think about it the more I dislike. The subversion of every convention Star Wars is based on can be awesome (*ahem* KotOR 2 w/ restoration mod), but it doesn't make for a good Star Wars film.

Well, I just got back from the theatres. Was glad it didn't suck. It was legitimately funny, and I thought had some great moments that destroyed some of the worse stuff set up in E7 ... like "Take off that ridiculous mask". Glad Snoke is dead (despite Zerkis' great performance), the last thing the saga needed was some mysterious super-wizard who could have thrown Palpatine around like a toy. But, of course, villains have been cut in half before and survived...

Great acting all around, Hamill, Ridley, and Driver really nailed it. I'm not unhappy with Luke's backstory, he was always a flawed hero who still rose to the occasion when it mattered most. I'm a bit confused about what Rey's endless mirror meant. Perhaps Ren's explanation (drunkard parents) is BS and, like Anakin, she's a vergence. Perhaps the Force pops out vergences any time balance needs to be restored, hence the endless line of Reys. No way to know.

Didn't like the Canto Bight arc, everything from the premise to the execution was silly. It seemed like the main point was all for the last shot, with the kid Force-moving the broom. In other movies there could have been plenty of places this could have been shown. Rian painted himself into a box when he decided to have the slowest space chase in the saga, leaving very little opportunity for world-building and the protagonists interacting with other people.

The main difference for me compared to other episodes is that I'm not really interested in seeing this one again. Everything in E8 is in your face, the story is clear, there's almost no background. With the prequels you could watch them with the sound off and catch all kinds of amazing details. Even the OT had more, especially after the pre-PT re-visit. That's what makes them real Star Wars films to me, and Rian missed that completely (or purposely turned against it). To be fair, the only person at Disney who seems to get the value is Filoni, and he tries with Rebels, but has a very tight budgetary leash.

19 minutes ago, whafrog said:

To be fair, the only person at Disney who seems to get the value is Filoni, and he tries with Rebels, but has a very tight budgetary leash.

I was thinking just a little while ago how they need to have Team Filoni at the very least polish their plots. I said before the story outline and basic idea is fine, but the plot just struck me as very rough draft and full of glaring holes.

10 hours ago, Archlyte said:

I'm just super happy the duality of the Force was preserved, and that the moral relativist Slicer was a bad guy. Star Wars lives. I couldn't be more relieved.

This! I was not looking forward to having to entertain gray Jedi BS in canon. Even Ren's ideas of tearing it all down; the Sith, the Jedi, the Republic and the FO, and do something new was a great concept and really called back to Anakin's feelings in EP III. That was a nice touch.

3 hours ago, Inquisitor Tremayne said:

This! I was not looking forward to having to entertain gray Jedi BS in canon. Even Ren's ideas of tearing it all down; the Sith, the Jedi, the Republic and the FO, and do something new was a great concept and really called back to Anakin's feelings in EP III. That was a nice touch.

One of my players emailed me this morning, saying that Kylo Ren thinks he's in the wrong film; he wants to play in the MarcyVerse, where he'd probably be a hero, or at least a protagonist rather than a designated villain. He doesn't want to be good or evil all the time, he'd have his own faction and be no morally better or worse than any of the others fighting for supremacy. He's all about 'kill your idols' just like I was at the start, that there's only any value in burning everything down to the ground and starting afresh. I mellowed; maybe he will.

8 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Rey was presented as something of a new "chosen one," only to find out that ultimately she's got no special heritage or legacy beyond being sensitive to the Force, and it's her desire to do good that makes her a hero. To quote Albus Dumbledore, "it is our choices that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities." And to be honest, I loved that Rey's parents weren't anyone special, which makes her growing into the role of The Hero all the more important; this is a young woman that almost literally came from nowhere (or at least close enough to being nowhere) and has chosen to take up the mantle of the galaxy's new hope in the wake of Luke Skywalker fading into legend.

Not gonna disagree with you Donovan - but do you think Abrams/Disney will leave her there? I strongly feel they'll make her a member of the First Family in the next film, and actually dilute her heroism. She's not Broom Kid rising to the occasion, it's all ordained and written in the stars and she's just a cosmic plaything like Vader who will do what she's destined to do, whether she likes it or not.

I always felt this was a fault of the EU too. I've long wished they just show us new stuff... new heroes and plots. Yes, by all means 'pass the torch' but don't set up a dynasty. Star Trek is not the story of Kirk's descendants, is it?

Make the galaxy bigger instead of always making it smaller.

8 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Maybe the reason the film isn't doing so well with fans is that The Last Jedi is ultimately a deconstruction of much of what we've seen in Star Wars in the past.

That's a good point. I think many fans - especially the hardcore ones who are deeply invested in the lore - will feel that. I think it's just as in thrall to nostalgia as Force Awakens, but where that film was all about the warm fuzzy memories, this one either subverts it (if you liked it) or parodies it (if you disliked it).

(Me, I wish they'd played it less safe, but I'm always awkward like that)

9 hours ago, LithiumBlossom said:

Also it saddens me that so much of what passes for criticism these days is little more than surface level nitpicking.

I don't think that's true, not here at least. Maybe this forum is just really civil (or the people I've blocked are the ones being uncivil and I don't see it!) but I'm just seeing polite opinions, most of them well-argued.

There's disagreements but I don't think anyone's nit-picking (or throwing around words like 'haters' or 'fanboys').

While they mostly left the characters untouched (alas), there were quite a few contentious elements (mind-Skype? Space-superman Leia? Fuel???) and it's no surprise the fans had differences of opinion.

I wonder what if when Luke threw that lightsaber with Rey swiftly following it into the sea we have Chewie berate Luke who acts surprised when he's told Rey doesn't know how to swim!

Seriously she's lived on a desert world for her entire life barring her day on Takodana and noone wondered?

So we have Luke jump in after her, pulling her out this bringing him out of his funk!

Next that scene with Leia have Luke accompany Chewie he sensed Leia in peril using the Force to move her back aboard and immediately to a bacta tank aboard a familiar medical frigate remember the bridge of her ship was blown up worse than the Nexus in ME:A!

What I really would have liked to see is when Snoke starts hurting Rey, have the Force Ghost of Obi-Wan Kenobi turn up saying "Hello there!" to Snoke giving the darksider a literal heart attack.

Then have him mention Snoke was a former Jedi Temple Guard who was corrupted into an Inquisitor who eventually usurped the throne thereby explaining Snoke!

Just have only the audience and Rey be the only ones other than Snoke to realise he's there.

Anakin's lightsaber is his link to Rey HE tossed the saber to Rey thereby explaining why that happened HE helped her with the Influence Mind trick just as Finn IS Force Sensitive whilst Poe is the Wedge Antilles meets Han Solo so doesn't need to be force sensitive!

I'm going to have to go watch this aren't I??

I just wish they'd employ a decent writer with the imagination to make good on those fricken mystery boxes!?

1 hour ago, Maelora said:

I don't think that's true, not here at least. Maybe this forum is just really civil (or the people I've blocked are the ones being uncivil and I don't see it!) but I'm just seeing polite opinions, most of them well-argued.

There's disagreements but I don't think anyone's nit-picking (or throwing around words like 'haters' or 'fanboys').

While they mostly left the characters untouched (alas), there were quite a few contentious elements (mind-Skype? Space-superman Leia? Fuel???) and it's no surprise the fans had differences of opinion.

Yes, I agree about this forum. People have been putting in more thought about it. Elsewhere however I've seen people bashing the movie for "plot holes" which are no such things if you think about them in the larger whole.

3 hours ago, Maelora said:

Yes, by all means 'pass the torch' but don't set up a dynasty. Star Trek is not the story of Kirk's descendants, is it?

Well, these days, it’s apparently either about Kirk himself commanding an Apple Store powered by a brewery (on the big screen) or Spock’s heretofore unknown and unmentioned human foster sister (on the small screen).

But then, I’ve always thought the series finale of Enterprise was terribly self-aware about the state of Trek: a middle-aged fanboy in a re-creation costume watching a rerun while writing a Mary Sue fanfic.

3 hours ago, copperbell said:

I wonder what if when Luke threw that lightsaber with Rey swiftly following it into the sea we have Chewie berate Luke who acts surprised when he's told Rey doesn't know how to swim!

Seriously she's lived on a desert world for her entire life barring her day on Takodana and noone wondered?

So we have Luke jump in after her, pulling her out this bringing him out of his funk!

Next that scene with Leia have Luke accompany Chewie he sensed Leia in peril using the Force to move her back aboard and immediately to a bacta tank aboard a familiar medical frigate remember the bridge of her ship was blown up worse than the Nexus in ME:A!

What I really would have liked to see is when Snoke starts hurting Rey, have the Force Ghost of Obi-Wan Kenobi turn up saying "Hello there!" to Snoke giving the darksider a literal heart attack.

Then have him mention Snoke was a former Jedi Temple Guard who was corrupted into an Inquisitor who eventually usurped the throne thereby explaining Snoke!

Just have only the audience and Rey be the only ones other than Snoke to realise he's there.

Anakin's lightsaber is his link to Rey HE tossed the saber to Rey thereby explaining why that happened HE helped her with the Influence Mind trick just as Finn IS Force Sensitive whilst Poe is the Wedge Antilles meets Han Solo so doesn't need to be force sensitive!

I'm going to have to go watch this aren't I??

I just wish they'd employ a decent writer with the imagination to make good on those fricken mystery boxes!?

Ray seems to knows a lot without any training, like swimming. Must be the force again.

51 minutes ago, TEK said:

7 minutes ago, TEK said:

Ray seems to knows a lot without any training, like swimming. Must be the force again.

All she does is flop around wildly in the water. That's hardly swimming.

https://www.cinemablend.com/news/1745390/rian-johnson-explains-why-he-made-that-difficult-decision-about-reys-parents?story_page=2

Interesting article on Rey and her parentage.