Snoke seemed to have a good command of several Force abilities, based on the way he flung Rey around. Kylo was just on to his mind reading tricks.
Also, the Ahch-To vergence seems very potent.
Did anyone else notice the Jedi tomes were stuck in a drawer on the Millennium Falcon at the end of the movie? Or was that just my imagination?
Just now, coyote6 said:Snoke seemed to have a good command of several Force abilities, based on the way he flung Rey around. Kylo was just on to his mind reading tricks.
Also, the Ahch-To vergence seems very potent.
Did anyone else notice the Jedi tomes were stuck in a drawer on the Millennium Falcon at the end of the movie? Or was that just my imagination?
QuoteYoda pulled a sly one there: "There is nothing in that tree that the girl, Rey, does not already possess."
Yoda was true; there was nothing within that tree; Rey had already nicked it all. Just Yoda knew exactly how to push his buttons to forfill his destiny. An absolute troll, even to the end of Luke's life.
And I'm sorry if theres spoilers but if you came into this topic expecting anything else, well. I don't know what to say. XD
24 minutes ago, coyote6 said:Did anyone else notice the Jedi tomes were stuck in a drawer on the Millennium Falcon at the end of the movie? Or was that just my imagination?
I thought those might belong to Rose.
She seemed to be of the "Force Faithful" and the scene cut immediately to Finn hovering over her.
Or, Rey could have removed them off-screen before Yoda destroyed the tree.
Edited by VondyI have a preference for the more down to earth saber-style in the OT.
As a result, the saber-fighting in VII and VIII give me more giddies.
Give me Fending with a dash of Chanbara inspired Kenjutsu over Wuxia any day.
Just now, Vondy said:I thought those might belong to Rose.
She seemed to be of the "Force Faithful" and the scene cut immediately to Finn hovering over her.
Or, Rey removed them off-screen before Yoda cast his "lightning storm from beyond the grave" spell on it?
In the brief instant I saw them, they looked like the exact same spines I saw in the tree scene. As Lordbiscuit mentioned, Yoda did say there wasn't anything in the tree Rey didn't already have. So maybe Rey swiped them (that seems in character for her), or someone else did - Yoda? Chewie? The caretakers? Porgs? The Force? That giant sea serpenty thing that briefly showed?
I see why Rian Johnson wanted the novelization held.
I recall Ray stuffing a bag or something in the drawer referenced above when preparing to leave the island. Those are definitely the books.
6 hours ago, Grimmerling said:What saddened me most: This was just a protracted TV show episode, on par with Clone Wars and Rebels.
Let's not insult Clone Wars or Rebels by comparing them with this steaming pile of refuse.
The Last Jedi was deeply dissapointing. At least it makes the wait for episode 9 much easier since my expectations have been thoroughly dashed.
24 minutes ago, kaosoe said:I recall Ray stuffing a bag or something in the drawer referenced above when preparing to leave the island. Those are definitely the books.
Yeah, she definitely stole them.
4 minutes ago, ghatt said:Yeah, she definitely stole them.
That's "was moved by the force to secure them for safekeeping" to you!
1 hour ago, Vondy said:I thought those might belong to Rose.
She seemed to be of the "Force Faithful" and the scene cut immediately to Finn hovering over her.
Or, Rey could have removed them off-screen before Yoda destroyed the tree.
She might believe in some other tradition, or even that the Jedi are real but those were the same books found under the tree. I didn't feel that it would be something anyone who wasn't a Jedi would keep, at least not a full collection of the stuff.
1 hour ago, coyote6 said:In the brief instant I saw them, they looked like the exact same spines I saw in the tree scene. As Lordbiscuit mentioned, Yoda did say there wasn't anything in the tree Rey didn't already have. So maybe Rey swiped them (that seems in character for her), or someone else did - Yoda? Chewie? The caretakers? Porgs? The Force? That giant sea serpenty thing that briefly showed?
I see why Rian Johnson wanted the novelization held.
Aye exactly. In the same order to, though they were only on the screen for a very breif time. Even my friend who is usually a stickler for that kinda stuff missed it completely.
4 hours ago, Maelora said:@Desslok, Porg avatar when?
Wait - do they have them on the forum? Hang on. . . . .
EDIT - I has a sad. There are no porgs. 
Mind you, there's a bunch of avatars missing. No X-Wing, none of the Star Wars board games. Weird.
Edited by Desslok7 hours ago, Vondy said:Snoke was a missed opportunity. It was a long movie and an exposition dump to explain him would have been "off," but who the **** is he? Evil dues ex machina.
I loved that he was was inconsequential. They set him up to be the Puppetmaster and throw him away halfway through the second act. That whole throne room scene was a brilliant subversion - Snoke is nothing more than a fart in a windstorm, Kylo looks like he might turn, the good guy and bad guy fighting together was badassed, and he didn't seem like he wanted to turn Rey for power or to have a minion, but that he genuinely cared about her. I thought Adam Driver was paper thin in E7, but they really gave him some good meat to work with here.
On 12/14/2017 at 1:23 AM, DanteRotterdam said:Nice movie that, I am sure, will grow with multiple viewings.
For what it's worth, it stands up on to a second viewing.
5 hours ago, Maelora said:Mark Hamill looks smexier now than he did in 1977. Better actor too.
Christ Mark looked scary as **** during the Rashomon scenes. Must be all those years playing the joker.
3 hours ago, ghatt said:Yeah, she definitely stole them.
Or it was Yoda playing the Trickster again, moving them for her.
Edited by Desslok
The more obvious complaint is what happened to Ben's Light saber you know the one that worked perfectly and he obviously built himself?
Or Luke's green saber which he had in his hands when he was thinking about murdering Ben, before changing his mind.
So why does Kylo have a broken crystal in a shoddy lightsaber when he had an almost perfect copy of Anakin's lightsaber?
I find it assuming, as I always disliked the theory-maker-people, but I couldn’t help but notice:
Didn’t Snoke sound suspiciously similar to Palpatine sometimes? Especially when he mentioned Vader.
Ah, okay - after having some dinner and processing, here's my take from the all important second viewing, where I can watch with a more critical eye. The good news? It still stands up well.
This is a really layered movie with lots and lots of themes. Myth and legend, stories and story telling, coming into your own and that sort of thing. The second act runs on a bit too long, but it kind of needs to for setting up a message that pays out towards the end.
And I can see what some folks say about how it retreads old ground from Empire and Jedi - and yeah, we get some of the story beats transplanted and shuffled around a bit - but there is a whole lot of subversion of expectations going on here. The interplay of "Join me! No, you join me!" that you might get in a scene like that is totally turned on it's ear. So yeah you could point to SCENE X and say that's oh, that's just the assault on Hoth or Yoda training Luke or whatever, but when you peel back the mechanics and the trappings of those scenes and get to the message and themes of what those retread scenes are trying to actually say - totally different outcomes from Empire and Jedi.
I'll still defend my belief that Kylo as a character was severely underwritten in E7, but here - yeah, you get the impression that there's quite a bit going on here. Adam Driver crushes it this time around.
And - I absolutely love the very last shot of the movie. It's a brilliant wonderful bookend from Luke gazing out over the horizon with the binary sunset. Probably the best close to a Star Wars movie ever and it sells the themes it's been building up very nicely.
On 14.12.2017 at 10:23 AM, DanteRotterdam said:Nice movie that, I am sure, will grow with multiple viewings.
A solid 7.5 out of 10.
I did miss that Star Wars feeling that TFA had in spades, but I think it is a much better movie than Rogue One (which I still think is an inferior movie, but a great SW experience.)
Thank you again for your recommendation.
Despite some glaring flaws in the setup of the final … the movie is currently a 9/10. Star Wars in Spades for me, the jabs at some flaws in the sage were great, and while the setup for the end was very deus ex machina, it still was very fitting for the movie. The movie did live up to itself and was felt very focused in theme and tone. For me it currently rates as my most favorite star wars film ever, even when this might change after a few rewatches.
2 hours ago, Desslok said:I'll still defend my belief that Kylo as a character was severely underwritten in E7, but here - yeah, you get the impression that there's quite a bit going on here. Adam Driver crushes it this time around.
The performance as whiny teenager he nailed perfectly in VII as well, the problem is that the script made him one which overall has never been a fan favorite. (See Prequels). So his performance was good, maybe even better than in in VIII, but The Last Jedi script gave him much more room to shine.
13 hours ago, Desslok said:You too, huh?
You need better friends.
Me three. I was a little disappointed about no pod racing, but alien horse racing was good enough for me.
My wife loved it, so I honestly don't care what my friends think. 
Some of them even liked Rogue One … don't care either.
2 hours ago, SEApocalypse said:I did miss that Star Wars feeling that TFA had in spades,
Me too, a lot. TLJ is a much better movie than TFA, but it just didn't feel like Star Wars to me. The ephemera were all wrong. No wipe cuts (unless I'm forgetting some), muted soundtrack (John Williams was only a minor presence in the movie), long flashbacks, very un-Star Warsy Force powers at a few points, and just a lot of scenes that didn't belong in a Star Wars movie even if they were good scenes. The last scene with the kid being inspired by the rebellion exemplified this. No old school George Lucas Star Wars movie would ever contain a scene like that; it felt straight out of an X-men movie. A good X-men movie, but not a Star Wars movie.
It kills me, because they could have had all the same great plot and character elements and made it feel like actual Star Wars, and then it would have been the best Star Wars movie since the Original Trilogy. I would've preferred a movie with the same story as TLJ, but directed in the style Abrams used for TFA.
I will say that Hamill, Driver and Ridley were all perfect in their roles. It was a great choice making Rey the child of nobodies rather than another Skywalker, both for thematic reasons, and also because it allowed the movie to capitalize on the strong chemistry between Driver and Ridley. That was the only way to actually make it credible that Rey might be tempted by the dark side, given her innate goodness.
It's possible I will like it more on a re-watching. I may have been so focused on the grating stylistic departures that I didn't fully appreciate the Star Wars-y bits that were there. The scene of Luke with two suns and such. Anyway, we'll see.
Edited by DaverWattraSaw the movie, it's late, and I'm tired.
Overall: It was enjoyable. I liked the characters, and the actors, and many of the scenes. I enjoyed it.
Not exactly good, though, in the general sense of things, but that's not the movie's fault, just the entire Nu-canon's fault, because the entire storyline is entirely shot to HFIL. The only two good things I've enjoyed, from a storytelling standpoint, is Rogue One and Thrawn.
Benicio del Toro stole every scene he was in, though. I am totally down for more of whoever the heck that guy was.
I liked it.
Once again, character interactions prop up a movie over the rest of its faults. I really like how Kylo and Rey developed. I loved the Luke scene at the end, but ARGH. I laughed a that opening. "On hold.", some people say that was too much funny, I thought it was brilliant.
I had thought that ramming something in lightspeed was a no-go in Star Wars. The impossible real world physics aside, I thought it was deemed a long time ago that if you could affect something in real space from hyperspace, then you don't need a Death Star, you just need a box with a hyperspace engine. Hyperspace capable missiles would render anything obsolete, and large ships would quickly become insane liabilities. You could hold entire worlds ransom because a hyperspacing ship would be incredibly destructive and, as we've recently found out, planetary shields don't stop vehicles traveling at lightspeed.
So I thought, perhaps mistakenly, that as soon as the ship/vessel went to hyperspace, it left real space and could no longer affect it. Otherwise I don't understand how hyperspace torpedoes aren't the go to weapon for just about everything larger than a starfighter.
Luke's scene at the end is fantastic. Shoulder Brush. HAHA! Brilliant. How they built it up and then revealed? So good.
Kylo and Rey in Supreme Leader Snoke's Throne Room. That was great.
Why do they keep needing to invent new tech? The ability to track something through hyperspace, couldn't that have been handled with a spy on board the cruiser? Still have to get onboard the Imperial ships to find out who's sending it? How about an interdictor? I dunno, that whole thing, where they couldn't send ships in front of the cruiser, I felt that's a weak spot in the story.
The three different tellings of the betrayal of Kylo. I really did like that, thought that was well done.
Two suns. Thinking on simpler times.
I
So I just got back from the theatre and am still processing, so apologies if this rambles.
The Good
Porgs: The fact they were everywhere in the marketing made me hate the things, so I smiled when I saw Chewie had cooked some but they were just adorable and weren't overused.
Yoda Cameo: Ah, old troll. I've missed you too. Just great, nothing to explain. Only gripe is the CGI could have been better. For a ghost he was surprisingly opaque. And speaking of CGI...
Force Bond: An interesting concept hindered by poor cinematography. Some CGI trickery would've spiced it up and made it otherworldly, instead we got close-ups. Really, anything besides constant close-ups of the actors' faces would have been better.
Flashbacks: Very cool to see Kylo's start, even as I hated it. I particularly liked the different versions - Luke's with him being peaceful, Kylo's with him looking all Sith-like, and the truth being somewhere in-between - great visual depiction of Obi-Wan's point of view deal.
DJ: A true Edge character. The little ticks like stuttering were a nice touch.
Fathiers: Mostly for being an interesting design.
Throne Room Fight: Despite my view that Snoke's guards' weapons and armor are a tad overdone, having Rey and Kylo team up to take them out was just awesome. The snap activation at the end was amusing, in a "OK, showoff" kind of way.
Lightspeed Kamikaze: I loved the sequence. Just beautiful, especially how the sound cut out for a bit. Though it raised a couple questions. How could a single ship traveling on a certain path hit all those ships like a shotgun blast? And why didn't the Separatists weaponize this?
Kylo: He's finally starting to be the villain I've wanted him to be. Shame it's a movie too late.
Battle of Crait: Exciting and excellent cinematography. Only two downsides: the cannon being miniaturized Death Star tech made me groan. Apparently all big guns are derived from that thing. Second was the lack of tension. Maybe it was because I was numbed by the rest of the film, but I felt like nothing was really at stake.
"Duel" at Crait: Would have been better without the Matrix dodge and Luke should've actually been there, but these things don't detract much. That laser barrage was amazing and funny.
Crystal Foxes: Really, I liked all the non-sentient creature designs in this film (except for the beach cow, *shudders*). From the way they ran from the First Order when the blast door was closing and that one guided the Resistance out, I get the feeling they're kinda like loth-wolves and are Force-attuned.
The Bad
The whole Resistance plot: So the plan is to have the fleet travel in a straight line at sublight through empty space while the First Order makes constantly accurate shots on the shields the whole way? First off, either the Resistance shield tech is utterly amazing to take a beating like that or First Order turbolasers suck. Second, anyone with a time machine please send 2016 Rian Johnson a core rulebook, specifically page 240. Third, why is fuel suddenly a plot point when it's never been mentioned in the franchise, like, ever?
Luke: This is not Luke to me. The OT was a fantasy story in space with Luke undergoing the Hero's Journey. While TLJ Luke is a very human growth of the character, Star Wars has always been larger-than-life, so that approach doesn't work. I just can't buy Luke "I'm gonna redeem Darth Vader cuz I sense scant good in him" Skywalker became Luke "I'm gonna kill my nephew cuz I sense great evil in him" Skywalker. Even if it was a momentary lapse. On a positive note, I did love how snarky he'd become. Tricking Rey with that blade of grass was one of the few jokes that really worked.
Snoke: A wasted opportunity. No backstory, no motivations, no character. He got the Darth Maul treatment. On the other hand, another malformed, old, evil sorcerer overlord was a pretty lazy idea.
Balance: Specifically between Kylo and Rey. Snoke explicitly says that the reason Rey is so powerful and is a Light Side champion is because Kylo is so powerful and is a Dark Side champion. Insert Han "That's not how the Force works!" gif here.
The Jedi Books: Another wasted opportunity to expand the lore and philosophy of the setting. Though, since it would've been written by the same guy who did the above point, maybe we're better off this way. And not completely wasted since Rey, ahem, "scavenged" them.
Holdo: I found her character very annoying. She keeps the plan for survival from a desperate crew on the bridge of the Resistance flagship (ie people not likely to trend to betrayal), which results in Poe sending Finn and Rose off on a nigh-suicide mission and leading a mutiny. Great job. Her role should have gone to Ackbar. I'll explain below.
Rose: Her first scene with Finn was great. However, later it goes downhill with some of her characterization getting forgotten (She tells Finn she's not that good at talking to people as important as the Resistance heroes, yet has no problem around Poe). But maybe that's because most of her scenes were on the pointless Canto Bight subplot. I hated when she saved Finn, once again removing any self-determination from him. Man's been allowed to follow through on only, like, 3 of his own decisions. Then there's her last speaking scene. Winning by saving who you care about is fine, so long as it doesn't doom the cause you care about.
Canto Bight Subplot: Rich people are a-holes. Weapons dealing/war profiteering is bad. Thanks Rian. I'm glad you're here to tell us these things.
Jokes Everywhere: This is Star Wars, not another Marvel quipfest. Some jokes here and there is fine, even Empire got quite a few in, but every other scene is excessive. Besides most of them fell flat.
Knights of Ren: Where in the Force are they!!? And, no, they aren't Snoke's guards. The Knights number 6 and there were 8 guards in the fight.
The Ugly (and Weird)
First Order Barrage: Since when do lasers freaking arc!?
Ackbar's Death: As I said above he should've been in command instead of Holdo. Here's why. During the Clone Wars, Ackbar fought with the Republic to repel the Separatist invasion and enslavement of his home planet only for the Republic to turn into the Empire and enslave his people. He then fought for the Rebellion to destroy the Empire and restore the Republic only for the Republic to allow the Imperial remnant known as the First Order to rise. He then fought for the Resistance. His whole life has been spent fighting wars for governments only for said governments to turn on him, setting him back to square 1. It would be easy to portray him as a war-weary, broken man secretly wishing to just escape the wars that have defined his life. Yeah, he's a fan favorite best known for the memes so it sounds like fanservice, but with the film's theme of subverting expectations (his being a loyal, dutybound admiral), it would've fit.
That Leia Scene: You all know the one. Let's just say all my mind could do was play the Superman theme. Also, how did they get her out without venting the hallway?
Holdo's Hair: This is actually an outgrowth of something that's been bugging me since 7. So Disney is adding alot of diversity to the new films. It started with Finn, a black main character who's backstory is being a stormtrooper/janitor. Then Rogue One adds a mystical warrior monk who was kung fu fighting and made him Asian. Well, now they add a character who's strongly hinted to being bisexual from the comics and give her a Tumblr dyejob. Maybe I'm mistaken, but I thought the point of diversity pushes was to break down racial/sexual stereotypes, not reinforce them. (Kinda unrelated, but most of the extras with speaking lines in this film were either women or non-white with all the exceptions getting killed onscreen. Funny that)
Throne Room Parallels: Just utterly lazy writing. I was so bored because I knew how it was gonna go down; I'd already seen it before. After the flak 7 got for retreading ANH I thought they'd be painfully aware of this and go out of their way to avoid it.
Rey's Parentage: Wasted potential. Hoping Abrams just retcons it in 9 and Kylo was being a liar that lies (aka a typical villain).
Maz's Holo-call: So all other holograms/holographic communication has required the person to be in a single spot. Maz was all over the place in the middle of a firefight with an apparently telepathic droid (only way I can think of for the camera to keep up with her like that). It felt like something out of a Marvel film more than Star Wars.
Real World Phrases: "Chromedome" and "page-turners" are fine. "Big-***" and "Godspeed" pulled me out. First off, there are plenty of made-up curses in Star Wars, use one of those or add another. Secondly, godspeed? GOD DOES NOT EXIST IN YOUR UNIVERSE!
Space Survival: Apparently Paige Tico is an ancestor of Batman, for she can breathe in space.
Technology Continuity: So tracking a ship through lightspeed is impossible, huh? Obi-Wan has a little tracker that would disagree. Ya know, if it wasn't just a gadget.
Ma-Rey Sue: So Yoda struggled with and was winded by lifting an X-Wing, but Rey can lift tons of rock without breaking a sweat. Well, I guess that balance deal has it's perks; girl's getting to Sidious-tier without having to waste time on silly things like training.
In summary, still a better Star Wars film than The Phantom Menace.
Okay its not Hyperspace its traveling at light speed.
They are still in the real world what happens is quite simply the astrogation computers and hyperdrives have built in safety features that prevent ships from doing what she did.
This is not the first case where someone in Star Wars weaponized a ship equipped with a hyperdrive by ramming it into a large mass in space.
The entire purpose of the Astrogation computer's calculations is to keep the ship from running into anything.
So the new frigates are Nebulon-Cs not the Nebulon-Ks mentioned in before the Awakening. I wonder if the K designation was an error or if the Ks will be in IX. Also FFG please publish stats for the Nebulon-Cs asap. After seeing the weapons on the medical conversion I can't wait to see the loadout on the standard combat version.
The hyperspace kamikaze reminds me of a discussion here long ago that got very ugly after I suggested such an attack could be used against the Death Star in a timeline where the Alliance lost at Yavin 4
Sigh do people actually watch The Empire Strikes Back?
Yoda expended Zero effort to lift the X-wing out of the swamp he closed his eyes bowed his head and made a gesture.
When he put it on the ground he sighed in exasperation at the fact that Luke didn't get what he was trying to teach.
48 minutes ago, RogueCorona said:The hyperspace kamikaze reminds me of a discussion here long ago that got very ugly after I suggested such an attack could be used against the Death Star in a timeline where the Alliance lost at Yavin 4
I believe the reasoning this wouldn't work is primarily due to the Death Stars own heavy shields deflecting such an attempt and the Death Stars own mass projecting a shadow into hyperspace that would prevent hyperdrives from being able to initialise/force a ship out of hyperspace as per failsafes to prevent collisions.
---
That being said, I actually greatly preferred TLJ to TFA, there were less irritating science things (although a big GRRR @ shots arcing in space), although I absolutely despised Snoke's ship and the First Order Dreadnought/Mandator-IV. They were both terribly designed, Snoke's ship for just being stupidly large in general (~60km wingspan, with ~15km length) defies gravity and common sense, while the Mandator-IV looked like a slice of pizza with a **** and just went against the general aesthetic of Star Wars (and FractalSponge has his own criticisms on the feasibility of the design as well).
The whole first half of the movie I found boring and it tried too hard to be funny at times, plus the entire sequence on casino planet felt like ****-tier political commentary and was boring alongside being pointless.
Good parts of the movie for me were the space combat scenes (minus the dreadnought), the sequence in Snoke's throne room (minus the lightwhip) and Ahch-To after Rey left (minus Yoda's appearance [not against him appearing at all, but the puppet looked so out of place, using the CGI from Phantom Menace would've been preferable]).
5 hours ago, DaverWattra said:, muted soundtrack (John Williams was only a minor presence in the movie), long flashbacks, very un-Star Warsy Force powers at a few points,
I may have been so focused on the grating stylistic departures that I didn't fully appreciate the Star Wars-y bits that were there. The scene of Luke with two suns and such. Anyway, we'll see.
You might mistake nostalgia for star wars, but feel free to correct me on that. Triggering cheap emotional reaction by using nostalgia / intertextuality != star wars. And actually the film still had plenty of intertextuality, just a lot more subtle than this blatant, incredible cheap way TFA was using. Same for the musical themes and clues, more subtle and often very quiet in the background, but still there.