Just now, Stan Fresh said:

It's hilarious that you think playing word substitution games will score you a win in a discussion.

I do not know where you are coming from. Who is keeping score. I am just putting my point across. I'm not trying to win adoration or likes just a straight forward discussion, why do you feel the need to put a non existent spin on this. Its weird.

3 hours ago, DaverWattra said:

After sitting back while the First Order commits more than a decade worth of atrocities?

A decade? The stuff I've seen on crawls makes it look like they turn up with a superweapon, do a decapitation strike on the New Republic, then invade. Is there more in non Movie sources?

Given it appears Luke cut himself off from the Force after his school was destroyed, he wouldn't know anything happening in the Galaxy after that time (And Jedi only tend to notice huge loss of life anyway at distance).

7 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

That seems to be the running trend, that it takes a second viewing to really appreciate what Rian Johnson did.

That's not saying the film is without flaws (I agree with Canto Bight and felt it could have been trimmed down substantially), but majority of folks that are willing to give the flick a second viewing come to find that it's not nearly as bad as the internet trolls would have one believe.My own take on this is that a lot of folks went into TLJ with expectations they built up, knowingly or not, over the two year period between TFA and TLJ. And when a lot of those expectations were dashed (no big reveal on Snoke, Rey not having a super-special legacy, the Resistance getting its hindquarters kicked, Luke no longer being the all-loving ideal Jesus allegory he was in the original trilogy), that lead to a bad first impression.

For me it was not so much that the first gave a bad first impression, I enjoyed it. However, I mainly enjoyed the constant twists and subverting of expectation, rather than the craft of the movie.

On a second watch, knowing what was coming, so many details emerge, and the sheer craft of the movie shone out. Lines like "What am I going to do, go out there and face the whole First Order with a laser sword" which seemed throwaway dismissal at the time, look instead like prophecy (or at least the germ of an idea) on a second viewing. Plus you discover that many of the slightly annoying inconsistencies were because you missed lines or pictures the first time round.

Personally I like that Hux overrode his officers suggestions and chose sub-optimal tactics in the chase. It's how I tend to handle a lot of stuff in my games. Have defenses well designed, then populate them with people who make human mistakes, or builders have cut corners, or whatever. The story of how you fail to defeat the enemy with overwhelming power that doesn't make mistakes tends not to be too popular.

22 minutes ago, Darzil said:

Personally I like that Hux overrode his officers suggestions and chose sub-optimal tactics in the chase. It's how I tend to handle a lot of stuff in my games. Have defenses well designed, then populate them with people who make human mistakes, or builders have cut corners, or whatever. The story of how you fail to defeat the enemy with overwhelming power that doesn't make mistakes tends not to be too popular.

Consider the Ottoman siege of Malta. 40000 invaders, 6000 defenders. Should be easy, right? But no, right away the invaders waste an entire month trying to conquer a small fortification and don't take such basic steps as establishing a blockade around the island. Even the greatest military superiority can't withstand human folly.

Anyone interested on the topic should check out the latest episode of the BBC's excellent In Our Time podcast.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09l1wmr

41 minutes ago, Darzil said:

For me it was not so much that the first gave a bad first impression, I enjoyed it. However, I mainly enjoyed the constant twists and subverting of expectation, rather than the craft of the movie.

On a second watch, knowing what was coming, so many details emerge, and the sheer craft of the movie shone out. Lines like "What am I going to do, go out there and face the whole First Order with a laser sword" which seemed throwaway dismissal at the time, look instead like prophecy (or at least the germ of an idea) on a second viewing. Plus you discover that many of the slightly annoying inconsistencies were because you missed lines or pictures the first time round.

"Go out there and face the whole First Order with a laser sword" is nothing against "The force: You can move rocks and trick people's minds with it."

1 hour ago, splad said:

Thank you for making my point for me. He did not randomly go in there. He premeditated the event which makes Luke very cold blooded which is why this is not the Luke of the original trilogy

And your evidence for the premeditation is...?

33 minutes ago, Cifer said:

"Go out there and face the whole First Order with a laser sword" is nothing against "The force: You can move rocks and trick people's minds with it."

And your evidence for the premeditation is...?

I may paraphrase somewhat but Luke said he went in Ben's room to check him out and he went armed and from what I see of Luke's character in the original trilogy he would not have been triggered to violence by just sensing the dark side. He would have killed Vader if that were the case in the final duel. I wish I had the script of the movie...have to wait for that.

Have we ever seen a Jedi go anywhere unarmed, considering their primary weapon is about as hard to carry as a flashlight?

1 minute ago, Cifer said:

Have we ever seen a Jedi go anywhere unarmed, considering their primary weapon is about as hard to carry as a flashlight?

Luke Skywalker went to Puffinland Spikeymountain unarmed in Episode 8.

8 minutes ago, Cifer said:

Have we ever seen a Jedi go anywhere unarmed, considering their primary weapon is about as hard to carry as a flashlight?

Anakin constantly lost his lightsaber.

16 minutes ago, splad said:

I may paraphrase somewhat but Luke said he went in Ben's room to check him out and he went armed and from what I see of Luke's character in the original trilogy he would not have been triggered to violence by just sensing the dark side. He would have killed Vader if that were the case in the final duel. I wish I had the script of the movie...have to wait for that.

The only place we’ve ever seen Luke not go with his lightsaber was Jabba’a palace...and that’s because he’d squirreled it away in R2 so he couldn’t be disarmed by Jabba’s guards.

Meanwhile, your paraphrasing chooses to ignore that, in that moment, he saw that Ben was too far gone. In that moment of terror and heartbreak, he considered the the unthinkable...for about five seconds. Which was long enough for Ben to wake up and bring the roof down on them.

6 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

The only place we’ve ever seen Luke not go with his lightsaber was Jabba’a palace...and that’s because he’d squirreled it away in R2 so he couldn’t be disarmed by Jabba’s guards.

Meanwhile, your paraphrasing chooses to ignore that, in that moment, he saw that Ben was too far gone. In that moment of terror and heartbreak, he considered the the unthinkable...for about five seconds. Which was long enough for Ben to wake up and bring the roof down on them.

While I agree in part with what you say it doesn't negate the overall paradigm.

2 minutes ago, splad said:

While I agree in part with what you say it doesn't negate the overall paradigm.

What paradigm?

Luke has a history of getting close to doing something regrettable and stopping at the last second.

This only seems out of character when compared to the old EU and how it clung desperately to the character and went out of its way to make him the most Jedi Jedi to ever Jedi.

12 minutes ago, splad said:

While I agree in part with what you say it doesn't negate the overall paradigm.

What paradigm is that?

Your insistence that, despite what we know of the details, Luke walked in the hut, twirling his mustache, planning to murder Ben? All because he walked in with his saber on him?

By that logic, he walked into Yavin base plannkng to kill everyone. And Echo Base. And Dagobah. And the briefing for the Battle of Endor.

Just now, Nytwyng said:

What paradigm is that?

Your insistence that, despite what we know of the details, Luke walked in the hut, twirling his mustache, planning to murder Ben? All because he walked in with his saber on him?

By that logic, he walked into Yavin base plannkng to kill everyone. And Echo Base. And Dagobah. And the briefing for the Battle of Endor.

Re-read what I wrote I know your fixated on the saber part but do try to take the whole thing in

5 minutes ago, splad said:

Re-read what I wrote I know your fixated on the saber part but do try to take the whole thing in

I have. He’d sensed darkness in Ben and went to have an unfiltered look. You’re the one hanging the whole “premeditated murder” idea on the fact that he went in “armed”...because he had on him a lightsaber that he always carried.

(Noticing once again the lack of answer to a direct question, BTW.)

6 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

(Noticing once again the lack of answer to a direct question, BTW.)

Oh, everyone does, believe me.

26 minutes ago, Ghostofman said:

This only seems out of character when compared to the old EU and how it clung desperately to the character and went out of its way to make him the most Jedi Jedi to ever Jedi.

Didn't Luke not literally fall to the dark side and needed rescue from Leia? ;-)
I am not the biggest fan of Dark Empire, and Zahn actually refused to reference it, meanwhile KJA had no trouble with constantly reminding us that we should buy Dark Empire ... ;-)

12 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

I have. He’d sensed darkness in Ben and went to have an unfiltered look. You’re the one hanging the whole “premeditated murder” idea on the fact that he went in “armed”...because he had on him a lightsaber that he always carried.

(Noticing once again the lack of answer to a direct question, BTW.)

I'm just underscoring that this scenario where Luke has a rage fest over his sleeping nephew while he can forgive his mass murdering father is just bad writing

9 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

Oh, everyone does, believe me.

Listen you wanted to make this some point scoring game so while you are free to voice an opinion, I just have no interest in this weirdness you evolve it into.

Also I'm glad you took a consensus for everyone's opinion about me thanks.

6 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

Didn't Luke not literally fall to the dark side and needed rescue from Leia? ;-)
I am not the biggest fan of Dark Empire, and Zahn actually refused to reference it, meanwhile KJA had no trouble with constantly reminding us that we should buy Dark Empire ... ;-)

Yes, there was that little incident. But Dark Empire got so bat-poodoo insane I don't even know where to start. Between the weird "just dump out the watercolors on it and maybe they won't notice I can't draw" artwork, and George insisting that it's totally his vision of EP 7-9.... I dunno...

A real shame actually, because Dark Empire actually had some good ideas. World Devastators are actually some of the better superweapons of the week that came out in that period.

3 minutes ago, splad said:

I'm just underscoring that this scenario where Luke has a rage fest over his sleeping nephew while he can forgive his mass murdering father is just bad writing

What “rage fest?”

Luke saw irredeemable darkness in Ben. For about five seconds, he considered killing him, then (here’s the point you’re choosing to ignore in your insistence that it’s “bad writing”) thought better of it.

If there’s any “rage fest” in Luke’s onscreen narrative, it’s in the minutes that he hammered away at dear ol’ dad before reining himself in.

So, please explain how it’s out of character for Luke. Explain this “paradigm.”

5 minutes ago, splad said:

Listen you wanted to make this some point scoring game so while you are free to voice an opinion, I just have no interest in this weirdness you evolve it into.

Sure, sure.

6 minutes ago, splad said:

Also I'm glad you took a consensus for everyone's opinion about me thanks.

We spoke and had a consensus.

11 minutes ago, splad said:

I'm just underscoring that this scenario where Luke has a rage fest over his sleeping nephew while he can forgive his mass murdering father is just bad writing

It's consistent with the character.

Luke was afraid and took his weapons into the cave.

Luke was afraid and compulsive and ran off the face Vader and save Han a Leia.

Luke got angry and attacked the Emperor.

Luke got angry and beat Vader to a pulp (and then forgave him, after the fact when he was dying and nothing could save him)

Luke, having seen the worst the Empire had to offer and blaming the Darkside for it, saw the Darkside in Ben, a strong force user, got afraid he would be the next Vader, drew his weapon... thought "Waaaaiiiiiitttt.... this is the kind of thing Yoda would passive aggressively warn me about while leaving out important details to further his own agenda" and by that time it was too late.

37 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

What “rage fest?”

Luke saw irredeemable darkness in Ben. For about five seconds, he considered killing him, then (here’s the point you’re choosing to ignore in your insistence that it’s “bad writing”) thought better of it.

If there’s any “rage fest” in Luke’s onscreen narrative, it’s in the minutes that he hammered away at dear ol’ dad before reining himself in.

So, please explain how it’s out of character for Luke. Explain this “paradigm.”

I will get to this in the morning

1 hour ago, Stan Fresh said:

Oh, everyone does, believe me.

Just because the same couple of guys dogpile on anyone with a difference of opinion with regards to this movie, does not mean everyone feels that way. Agree to disagree and move on. These pointless arguments are getting excessive.