5 hours ago, DaverWattra said:

That's sort of how I feel too... although I am going to re-watch it this evening, actually, in the hopes that I'll enjoy it more now that I'm "prepared" for the things that grated on me the first time I saw it.

I think when I first watched the movie, I got a little bit into panic mode after the first ten minutes. They started with the Poe/Hux phone call, which felt like it was straight out of Spaceballs. Then we got the slow-mo Paige death scene, which felt straight out of a Michael Bay movie. They front-loaded two of the worst scenes, and at the end of that I was sitting there thinking "Jesus, am I going to hate this movie?" I think it affected my perception of what came after.

My hopes were fulfilled. I liked it a lot better on the re-watch. I now like it only a little bit less than Rogue One, and definitely more than TFA.

6 hours ago, splad said:

Did you not notice that moments before your "There's still good in him" photo that Luke totally flipped out and was doing his very best to kill Vader, that even after having Vader on his knees and completely helpless before him that Luke was thinking about finishing the act? That it took him a moment or two to come to his senses, back off and get to the "No, this is wrong" place?

It's amazing that critical thinking seems to be a lost art.

At this point I'm sure he did notice all that. It's not a lack of critical thinking capability, it's a deliberate choice to go ahead anyway.

Don’t be silly, messiah Skywalker isn’t allowed to have a moment of human fallibility. It destroys his character of being the light side incarnate.

Honestly you would think he was Jesus or something (who ironically also has a moment of weakness or two ).

2 hours ago, Desslok said:

Did you not notice that moments before your "There's still good in him" photo that Luke totally flipped out and was doing his very best to kill Vader, that even after having Vader on his knees and completely helpless before him that Luke was thinking about finishing the act? That it took him a moment or two to come to his senses, back off and get to the "No, this is wrong" place?

It's amazing that critical thinking seems to be a lost art.

He is faced with Palpatine who is a known manipulator and massively powerful force user who was clearly using the force to influence Luke’s thoughts and feelings, trying to tempt him. This is probably the hardest moment anyone in any Star Wars film is faced with.

The problem people have with the “I murder my own nephew” is that a Jedi who faces down that kind of a threat, manages to find his calm and balance would be a changed man. He would be someone who like Anakin’s fall in the prequels, has committed himself to one side of the force. That’s not to say he need be a Gary Stu with no flaws, just that what we see of his character between then and that moment isn’t enough to justify the falling back. His character arc then feels as though it is somehow lessened because he has lost that peace and tranquility he found to defeat the confrontation with the greatest threat the galaxy had ever seen.

Can they get his character to that point through further elaboration? Sure, but for the audience that just finished seeing his Redemption of Vader and his firm commitment to sacrifice himself rather than strike an evil man down in anger, it’s a bit of a leap. I have faith that at some point they will include more exposition to flesh out the momentary lapse, but you can’t fault someone for thinking it out of character based on where that character arc has left our hero.

You may notice that I also wrote all of this without questioning your own ability’s or intelligence. Please try and offer the same courtesy to others, this is not the sort of forum that need be a toxic place.

13 minutes ago, Khazadune said:

The problem people have with the “I murder my own nephew” is that a Jedi who faces down that kind of a threat, manages to find his calm and balance would be a changed man. He would be someone who like Anakin’s fall in the prequels, has committed himself to one side of the force.

The problem in a nutshell.

“If A then he would B.”

Sorry the movie was different than what you expected but your expectations are not the basis a movie should be made by.

Where the arc left our hero? That was over twenty years ago. And I’d argue shame over his father might well lead to a lapse in judgement.

Just now, DanteRotterdam said:

The problem in a nutshell.

“If A then he would B.”

Sorry the movie was different than what you expected but your expectations are not the basis a movie should be made by.

Maybe this is true, but I was talking about character arcs and dramatic progression to the storyline. While this is subjective to a degree, most of the basis of western storytelling is derived from Aristotle’s Poetics which give a basis to how character progression exists.

1 minute ago, HorusArisen said:

Where the arc left our hero? That was over twenty years ago. And I’d argue shame over his father might well lead to a lapse in judgement.

True! As I said, I expect exposition to be brought forth to enuciate exactly how our Moisture Farmer turned Gandhi boy (golden boy?) got to that point. I think that’s the interesting discussion take away. In truth I expected more of that to be the focus of people’s attention after the movie finished playing.

29 minutes ago, Khazadune said:

His character arc then feels as though it is somehow lessened because he has lost that peace and tranquility he found to defeat the confrontation with the greatest threat the galaxy had ever seen.

There is some deep irony here, Snoke has been created as an entity from the unknown region which surpasses Palpatine's own power by magnitudes. Now you just assume that Palpatine's dark influence must be the reason why Luke lost his temper (which btw is imho silly), while rejecting the same to be true in case of the events 20 years later when Snoke plays the exact same game. It is highly likely that Snoke did not care one bit if he turns a Skywalker or a Solo, he just cared for having his dragon ready to be used in his plans.

Gandhi boy? Luke didn't swear off violence in Return of the Jedi.

He saw that it wasn't the path to reaching his father, but that doesn't mean he's over killing or lacks any dark impulses.

Besides, not all change sticks. Just look at The Sopranos. Arguably the greatest TV show of all time and it's all about a guy failing to change. Or The Sandman, if you want a more mythic example.

How we fail to uphold our ideals is a worthwhile theme to explore.

3 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

There is some deep irony here, Snoke has been created as an entity from the unknown region which surpasses Palpatine's own power by magnitudes. Now you just assume that Palpatine's dark influence must be the reason why Luke lost his temper (which btw is imho silly), while rejecting the same to be true in case of the events 20 years later when Snoke plays the exact same game. It is highly likely that Snoke did not care one bit if he turns a Skywalker or a Solo, he just cared for having his dragon ready to be used in his plans.

Force influence is well documented, but it appears one need be present for it to work. The “temptation of the dark side” is often presented as influencing ones thoughts.

Presumably they could change this in Snook’s case and have some influence from afar be the catalyst for Luke’s momentary lapse, but I do think there are probably better ways to explain it IMHO.

Sure, one way is that he was scared and in a reflex he drew his sabre. He then immediately decided against it but was too late. Just as it happened in the movie.

Jedi even those surrounded by a large number of others are just as fallible as everyone else and if there is one thing the pt did well it was to show that.

5 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

Gandhi boy? Luke didn't swear off violence in Return of the Jedi.

He saw that it wasn't the path to reaching his father, but that doesn't mean he's over killing or lacks any dark impulses.

Besides, not all change sticks. Just look at The Sopranos. Arguably the greatest TV show of all time and it's all about a guy failing to change. Or The Sandman, if you want a more mythic example.

How we fail to uphold our ideals is a worthwhile theme to explore.

Yeah, Gandhi boy as tongue in cheek humour based upon him being sometimes referred to as the Golden Boy, just my sense of humour, not meant to be an actual reflection on the guy we see zipping around Jabba’s Barge, tossing people into the pit of Carkoon! Lol

Thats an intriguing point about the power of such a story element! I’d love to see this as his canon reasoning with some novel detailing his time between ROTJ and Force Awakens, as his own inability to change/grow could be a great plot point!

2 minutes ago, DanteRotterdam said:

Sure, one way is that he was scared and in a reflex he drew his sabre. He then immediately decided against it but was too late. Just as it happened in the movie.

Jedi even those surrounded by a large number of others are just as fallible as everyone else and if there is one thing the pt did well it was to show that.

I do think this is likely to be what we are left with for some time, but in a universe where casual comments have spawned the understanding of entire cultures (Never Tell Me the Odds! - All Corellians hate odds...) I expect they will elaborate at some point on the why of this weakness.

The movie does go to some length to show hubris/failure and the probable route they will follow for Luke may be the “he came to believe in his own legend.” He surely sets this up fairly well throughout the film. At some point, (CGI Luke?) we may see the New Jedi temple and this failing explored in its own context, and I would line up to see it.

I'd rather they don't make everything explicit and literal. What we're talking about is there in the movie; showing it serves no good purpose.

2 hours ago, Khazadune said:

Force influence is well documented, but it appears one need be present for it to work. The “temptation of the dark side” is often presented as influencing ones thoughts.

Presumably they could change this in Snook’s case and have some influence from afar be the catalyst for Luke’s momentary lapse, but I do think there are probably better ways to explain it IMHO.

Well, we already know that Snoke influenced Ben in the exact same circumstances. Of course, Luke should be more resistant to that, but "more resistant" might still mean "gets an impulse and almost acts on it".

Or Luke simply being human had a moment of fear...

Just now, Cifer said:

Well, we already know that Snoke influenced Ben in the exact same circumstances. Of course, Luke should be more resistant to that, but "more resistant" might still mean "gets an impulse and almost acts on it".

I just don’t see Snoke’s influence going by way of a lingering influence on Ben. If Snook was gonna influence Luke I think it would be directly. Most likely as others have stated, it’s meant to be as portrayed, and we will probably get some filler content to create an exposition to explain the lapse, as it truly is a big development in his character, and arguably a point upon which the universes fate hinges.

3 minutes ago, HorusArisen said:

Or Luke simply being human had a moment of fear...

Maybe it was human weakness, maybe it was supernatural influence, but I'd like to think that under normal circumstances, a jedi might experience moments of fear without igniting their light saber while standing over the bed of their student.

Yes...entire book just to explain a moment of weakness...essential

Just now, Cifer said:

Maybe it was human weakness, maybe it was supernatural influence, but I'd like to think that under normal circumstances, a jedi might experience moments of fear without igniting their light saber while standing over the bed of their student.

I prefer to see them overcome their moments of weakness. Like Luke did.

This deification Of Jedi is hilarious

Who's deifiying jedi here? I'd merely say that when "There is no emotion. There is peace.", I'd expect jedi to have a better grip on their emotions in relatively quiet circumstances, because that's what they should be good at. Drawing your light saber is a pretty heavy moment of weakness - one I wouldn't ordinarily expect from a teacher and uncle. So when we already know that someone around him was manipulated towards the dark side, I find it a very possible explanation that Luke himself was given a little push.