12 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

Wait a second...hasn’t your issue with the fuel to this point been that they kept bringing it up when it had “never been an issue in Star Wars movies before?”

But now, the issue is that they should have done exactly what they did?

Sorry, I guess I wasn't clear enough.

I think they did the right thing with the fuel issue: they explained it, working the explanation into the movie in a way that felt natural. Which is exactly what they should've done with the spy issue.

1 minute ago, Nytwyng said:

You’re correct that spies weren’t overtly mentioned, because that wasn’t an element of the plot. It is however, a reasonable conclusion to draw because the First Order was able to follow them in a way that hadn’t been done before,

Eh, with a franchise that treats science and magic as practically interchangeable, I honestly wouldn't expect a spy. I mean, when the mention of them tracking us is presented, they never even suggest they have a mole on board. Their first idea is "it must be Science Babble, we can try and counter that with Counter Science Babble", you'd think someone like Poe would even hint at it, but he doesn't.

4 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

As far as Holdo’s “secrecy” goes, we only saw her interact with Poe, and those interactions were his demanding information that wasn’t “need to know” for him at that time. So I don’t see the problem.

I don't have a problem with it, I'm simply addressing the "spy theory" that was presented and quoted further up by you, and why I think that's a flawed justification for her behavior, seeing as nothing else in the plot suggests a spy at all.

Again I refer to HFRO and how they handled the "spy" angle, and hiding information from the crew. If they were actually trying for a spy angle to justify Holdo's behavior, then we should've seen at least one scene of her communicating with the officers, or just Leia, about "General they followed us through hyperspace, that shouldn't be possible..." *casual glance around, then quiet comment* "We might have to consider the possibility of a spy on board, and take...precautions." But they never do that, which is why I think a spy subplot, that they never actually establish isn't good fan validation for her behavior.

Again, I actually don't have a problem with her behavior, of not telling Poe, other than they had already established that their "chain of command" was incredibly casual with how they spoke with each other, given the way Leia and Poe interact. They hardly established a hierarchy with how they behaved, it was more Mother/Rebellious Teenager, with how she slaps him, something an officer actually wouldn't do to a subordinate without ramifications, but IS something an annoyed mom would do to shut up her annoying kid. Then she has her little "heart to heart" with him, and then tells him to go blow up stuff. So it's hardly the most regimented, disciplined command structure I've ever seen. With that casual nature in mind, the fact that she didn't tell him does seem a bit out of place.

I mean, in New Hope, AND Return of the Jedi, we see the entire command structure give a lengthy, and detailed description of the ENTIRE battle plan, to every single member of the force that's taking part. Even the parts that they don't really need to know about. So the idea that in Star Wars, there is a strict "you don't need to know this because it's above your rank" isn't really established, when it comes to the good guys way of operating.

All that in mind, the fact that she didn't just say "yeah, we have a plan in place to make sure we are able to escape, just stay cool and we'll get out of this" or "yeah, we're going to use cloakers and escape to a nearby base" is a tad odd, even though I personally don't really care either way. It's something of a flaw in my mind, because of the nebulous, not really clear on either direction way they have the Resistance personnel behave, but I can also see either method being valid.

It doesn't break my brain like other plot points, so I don't really worry about it that much.

6 hours ago, DanteRotterdam said:

Also, the fact that a post containing this actually gets likes and the poster then has the guts to say he wasn’t being sexist is a sad commentary on what is wrong with society in general and fandom specifically.

I call her that because I knew that people like you would try to deflect all criticism of this horrible character by just accusing people of being sexist instead of actually addressing any arguments. Hence why she's Admiral Gender Studies. Incompetent, yet shielded from criticism by baseless accusations of bigotry.

So you were using a bigoted term to bait those that dislike bigotry to call you a bigot instead of having an actual discussion on the character’s merits?

Well at least your plan worked.

45 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

with a franchise that treats science and magic as practically interchangeable, I honestly wouldn't expect a spy

The franchise is rife with spies...

46 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

in New Hope, AND Return of the Jedi, we see the entire command structure give a lengthy, and detailed description of the ENTIRE battle plan, to every single member of the force that's taking part.

Different situation. In both the rebellion were on the offense.

5 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

People aren't bringing in politics, it's baked into it. All art is political.

One could argue that turbulent politics drives art. Punk is a direct response to the political fuckery of the seventies. Movies are also strongly influenced by politics - the '54 Godzilla is Japan trying to come to terms with having two cities blown off the map (And last years Shin Godzilla was a biting satire of politics mired down in red tape in response to a disaster). The original Invasion of the Body Snatchers was responding to the Red Menace and the 79 remake was a response to the distrust of authority in the wake of Watergate. Romero denies it, but Night of the Living Dead is clearly the civil rights movement in celluloid form.

Why should Star Wars be different.

(EDIT to clarify my point - I'm not saying that Admiral Redshirt, a female in power is a bad thing - or even a thing altogether. Just that Star Wars is at its best - at a high level sense - when it's about something in addition to the pew-pew-pew and kung fu monks.)

The entire concept of Star Wars is political.

3 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

People who criticize the movie for supposed plot holes or being un-Star Wars keep making these declarations about what has and hasn't been part of SW, and they end up being proven false again and again.

Or what the **** were those big hoses doing attached to the X-Wings on Yavin?

1 hour ago, DanteRotterdam said:

The franchise is rife with spies...

I can't think of a single "spy" character from the movies, unless you count Palpatine, and certainly no examples of a member of the Rebellion being a traitor.

There is a race of spies called Bothans... there is a spie career in this very game.

This guy?

This chick?

What about:

Quote

"Don't act so surprised, Your Highness. You weren't on any mercy mission this time. Several transmissions were beamed to this ship by Rebel spies"

1 hour ago, DanteRotterdam said:

There is a race of spies called Bothans... there is a spie career in this very game.

It's not a race of spies. It's a race that has spies. But that is now star wars legends and not canon anyway

11 minutes ago, Giorgio said:

Star Wars: The Last Jedi Is 2017's Highest-Grossing Movie in North America - IGN

Latest Star Wars movie becomes the top domestic earner of 2017 and crosses a global box office milestone.

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So even if the movie has been highly controversial to its fans, the House of Mouse must be very pleased indeed.

It’s all propaganda, surely no one enjoyed this film.

5 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

Spies have been a thing from Star Wars to Force Awakens, beginning with that alien informant in Mos Eisley all the way to the Resistance and First Order spies in Maz's castle.

Yeah, but the reason we know about is because they show us. Showing us a spy onthe fleeing ships would have amped the tension up a lot. It’s basic dramatic irony.

37 minutes ago, Giorgio said:

Star Wars: The Last Jedi Is 2017's Highest-Grossing Movie in North America - IGN

Latest Star Wars movie becomes the top domestic earner of 2017 and crosses a global box office milestone.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So even if the movie has been highly controversial to its fans, the House of Mouse must be very pleased indeed.

You see this maybe some of fool me once shame on you syndrome. You may well see the fall in the income on the subsequent episode. I already heard a few disgruntled viewers of tlj make that observation to. Let's see what happens.

A bit of fun past to present

6 hours ago, Desslok said:

Or what the **** were those big hoses doing attached to the X-Wings on Yavin?

They're for pumping in air so that ships can go up in flames when they're shot down.

6 hours ago, KungFuFerret said:

I can't think of a single "spy" character from the movies, unless you count Palpatine, and certainly no examples of a member of the Rebellion being a traitor.

Did you miss my post where I listed them? They've been there since the first movie.

4 hours ago, robus said:

Yeah, but the reason we know about is because they show us. Showing us a spy onthe fleeing ships would have amped the tension up a lot. It’s basic dramatic irony.

No, it would have only muddled the story.

It's reasonable to infer that the Resistance is worried about security.

6 hours ago, DanteRotterdam said:

There is a race of spies called Bothans... there is a spie career in this very game.

And none of that is actually shown in the movies much less an infiltrator that was in the Rebel forces, acting as a mole.

As to that guy in New Hope, how do we know he's an actual spy? I mean the Empire was all over that town, telling people to report them. He saw them, and called it in. If that's a spy, then anyone that calls in because they saw a fugitive and called the cops is a "spy". Same thing with that emo-goth woman from Awakens, she was just hanging out in a bar, saw them, and called the cops. They literally fell into her lap, that's hardly spy work, that's just seeing someone walk in that you know is wanted, and again, calling the cops.

4 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

Did you miss my post where I listed them? They've been there since the first movie.

Yes I did, as I don't read every post in a thread when it gets to the point of 10+ pages. It's usually a lot of back and forth bickering about something that I have no interest in, so I skim. Plus, the examples I'm seeing on this page, I don't consider to be a spy, based on what they actually do.

21 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

Yes I did, as I don't read every post in a thread when it gets to the point of 10+ pages. It's usually a lot of back and forth bickering about something that I have no interest in, so I skim.

We might have less empty back and forth if people read the thread instead of bringing up points already dealt with, you know.

Why exactly were they surprised when they followed Them through hyperspace? Didn't get that, people followed people all the time through hyperspace.

35 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

As to that guy in New Hope, how do we know he's an actual spy?

How do we know? Because internet!

9 minutes ago, Seguleh said:

Why exactly were they surprised when they followed Them through hyperspace? Didn't get that, people followed people all the time through hyperspace.

In the movies? When?

In Empire all they do is calculate all possible destinations along the last known trajectory of the Falcon. They still have to search for it, they didn't follow it.

8 minutes ago, Desslok said:

How do we know? Because internet!

Plus, the spying. In the movie. When he spies. Like a spy.