45 minutes ago, DanteRotterdam said:

I would appreciate the acknowledgment that I never said you did that. I get that it has now become a discussion where people really want to disagree on things but I have explicitly stated this not to be the case in our discussion at least twice and now I read the implication that I made that argument again.

Okay, I'll be clear that wasn't aimed at you, Dante.

I was referring to the fact that around Force Awakens and especially the Ghostbusters remake, there were a lot of people saying that the only reason critics took issue with the characters was because they were women-haters. A few idiots wrote 'Ghostbusters can't be girls, this movie sucks because I hate women!'. But many critics wrote stuff like 'the concept is intriguing, but the acting and directing is a bit rubbish'.

Apologies if you felt I was taking a shot at you, that wasn't my intention.

Thanks! Just wanted to make sure!

i haven’t seen ghostbusters yet... somehow I never had any interest in it, especially since I never felt it needed a reboot (hard or soft) and the old one still didn’t show its age. Same for Robocop, Total Recall and the like. Come to think of it, that trend was short lived... luckily.

10 minutes ago, whafrog said:

So your summary seems kind of trite. The story is about her. If she didn't have these abilities, the story would be about someone else. Unless you want to rewrite the story completely, in which case: let's hear it. What exactly would make her less boring, but still the lead in the story?

Not gonna argue opinions, whafrog. That was just something from a long thread on Mary Sue characters that I agreed with.

Some characters resonate with me, others don't. This one doesn't, and I'm something of a Heroine Addict.

I prefer my heroines (and heroes!) to bleed a bit, to struggle and overcome odds. It's one reason I don't much care for anime and manga, because an awful lot of those heroes are super-competent. In my humble opinion.

1 minute ago, DanteRotterdam said:

i haven’t seen ghostbusters yet... somehow I never had any interest in it, especially since I never felt it needed a reboot (hard or soft) and the old one still didn’t show its age. Same for Robocop, Total Recall and the like. Come to think of it, that trend was short lived... luckily.

Rebooting classic films is generally a bad idea. Fans are protective and nostalgic about their favourite things from their youth.

I don't personally care what genitals the Ghostbusters have; I ask only that the movie is good.

And heck, that's a film that had a lousy sequel that everyone involved with it wants to forget. 'Ghostsbusters II' got slated even with male characters. They should have just left it all alone, as they did with 'Goonies' or 'ET'.

31 minutes ago, whafrog said:

Unless you want to rewrite the story completely, in which case: let's hear it. What exactly would make her less boring, but still the lead in the story?

This came to mind for me:

TLDR; Luke starts off green and has to get awesome over three movies. Rey starts off and remains awesome because reasons.

Of course, Your Mileage May Vary, and that's absolutely fine too. It's just an opinion.

14 minutes ago, Maelora said:

It's just an opinion.

That list about Rey is full of falsehoods. That's not opinion, that's fact.

Why is it that so many of your complaints about her are based on falsehoods?

This made me laugh. There is foul language so beware. http://geekxgirls.com/article.php?ID=9449

5 hours ago, Maelora said:

This came to mind for me:

TLDR; Luke starts off green and has to get awesome over three movies. Rey starts off and remains awesome because reasons.

Of course, Your Mileage May Vary, and that's absolutely fine too. It's just an opinion.

#1 expected from a scavenger living on her on out there. Else she would be basically dead or ... guess what, not a LONE scavenger.
#2 Plain wrong, actually she is so OP that she literally build her own speeder from scratch and iirc so interested in flying spaceship that she has simulator training on top. That might be Luke turned up to 11, but it's still Luke. On top is she crashing a lot ... but ok the Falcon is a piece of garbe ...
#3 It's not instantly, only when she gives herself fully into the force she reaches godo saiyan ultra instinct. I still was not a fan, though mainly because Kylo was a ***** in the scene, and technical it applies to Finn as well who hold his own for a while too.
#4 Learned directly out of the mind from Kylo Ren, because he is such a good villian that he **** up this simple task. Still incredible stupid script, but it's hard to blame only the writing for Rey, when Kylo is such a weak tool to enhance Rey's abilities … having legendary teachers in the oddest ways to justifies the progression of the writers avatar in the story … ok checks out with a typical Mary Sue. Though having a confidant character, over-confident vs some with lack of believe in his abilities at the other hand is fine. One of the reasons I really like "The Last Jedi", they really run with this difference and show how this is a weakness of Rey.
#5 Was this not Leia's idea because something, something Force? Sound legit to be honest. Besides, they gave Luke immedial a position as red 5 …
#6 Sounds fine for tech character on a scummy planet.

I have to be honest, I didn’t feel much of a connection to Rey in the movies either, partly due to the fact that acting could have been a bit better, but also because it felt like a bit too much as maelora says.

Ive seen quite a few op Ed’s and analysis that shows thier is hidden depth behind her that explains a lot of things, and I appreciate them and understand that the way she is in the movies makes sense based on that context, but that also takes a whole lot of mental labor on the part of the viewer which is something I wasn’t exactly excited to have to do for a character that I wasn’t terribly hyped about when I had been looking forward to seeing Finn based on the previews.

Admittedly I was also kind of put off by everyone praising the franchise for having a white female lead as revolutionary when white women have been leading movies for a considerable amount of time, what would have been revolutionary was if Rey had been a woman of color

https://www.facebook.com/groups/TheAllianceofStarWarsFanatics/permalink/930643703753571/

3 hours ago, Maelora said:

Rebooting classic films is generally a bad idea. Fans are protective and nostalgic about their favourite things from their youth.

I don't personally care what genitals the Ghostbusters have; I ask only that the movie is good.

And heck, that's a film that had a lousy sequel that everyone involved with it wants to forget. 'Ghostsbusters II' got slated even with male characters. They should have just left it all alone, as they did with 'Goonies' or 'ET'.

They're rebooting because Hollywood is greedy and stupid. With the exception of God awful tween crap, Firefly and The Expanse are the only 'modern' stuff I can think of made in the 21st century.

3 hours ago, Maelora said:

Not gonna argue opinions, whafrog.

I'm not arguing about whether you like Rey or not, it doesn't matter to me. I'm only arguing about the story arc you presented, which I felt lacked context and wasn't a reasonable representation of what happened.

3 hours ago, Maelora said:

I prefer my heroines (and heroes!) to bleed a bit, to struggle and overcome odds.

Yep, me too. I guess I felt like there was more struggling and bleeding than you described.

3 hours ago, Maelora said:

This came to mind for me:

Not bad, but still selective. The "getting along with others" is definitely a difference (at least at first). But still, they gave Luke an X-Wing just based on a friend's recommendation, and he knows all the protocols and how to stay in formation on his maiden voyage, I don't see that in the list.

Again, it doesn't matter to me if you don't like a character (any character!), I'm just not grokking your reasons.

30 minutes ago, 2P51 said:

Hollywood is greedy and stupid

While I do not refute either of those whatsoever, I believe that there's a little more to it when it comes to the sequel / prequel / remake / reboot trend.

Forty years ago, most people had access to around five TV stations and most theaters had a single screen. Back then, it was pretty easy to get someone to watch something new; simply because there wasn't a lot of competition.

But today; people have access to literally hundreds of TV channels, only 'artsy' theaters have less than a dozen screens, and we've got the internet on top of all of that. With such a glut of entertainment offerings, advertising becomes far more important; and it often costs as much to properly promote a movie as it costs to make it.

So with all of that in mind, what it really comes down to is that it's a lot easier to sell someone something that they already like than it is to sell them something new. Tiresome as they might be to many; sequels, prequels, remakes, and reboots all contain a feature which is very appealing to studios: built-in advertising.

13 hours ago, SEApocalypse said:

"Want" is the wrong word in this context. You don't want to see it, you have to because your brain triggers those memories which are in recent memory based on other media you have seen recently. Not only is Mary Poppins itself iconic, but the memory of her scene was strengthened by Yondu's Mary Poppins scene in Guardians of the Galaxy II.

The scene makes sense for star wars, absolutely, but the scene is bad from a movie perspective, because it evokes the wrong emotions and memories, based on other medias. Just like the OT gets better because it is using references to all those other media at it's time, a movie can get worse, because evoking the wrong references.

And it gets worse with superman, which is one of the biggest icons of pop culture and with just a lot of terrible movies in the recent years with several scenes similar in look. And those references makes the scene a good idea with a bad execution. Even changing the camera angle might have made the scene much better. Now at the other hand in 20 years hopefully no one remembers Superman Returns or Batman v Superman … and the scene might work a lot better. ;-)

You have issues with this version of this?

5 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

That list about Rey is full of falsehoods. That's not opinion, that's fact.

Why is it that so many of your complaints about her are based on falsehoods?

Also, why is it 99.9% of people who have issues with Rey and call her a Mary Sue are male?

Not at all telling, lads.

10 minutes ago, Endersai said:

Not at all telling, lads.

Rule 7.

20 minutes ago, JorArns said:

Rule 7.

There are like, 3 rule 7s! Specificity is a good thing here.

Just now, Endersai said:

There are like, 3 rule 7s! Specificity is a good thing here.

True. I had forgotten what a trap that could be. Apologies to anyone whose eyes were burned. Contact my counseling department on Alderaan for appointments.

Generally, when criticizing something another individual likes, all arguments seem to devolve into personal attacks. This seems like a universal internet constant.

Rule 7: No matter how much you love debating, keep in mind that no one on the internet debates. Instead they mock your intelligence as well as your parents.

Right. I think to be fair I've, on a number of occasions, debated points in this thread. And noting selective readings of Luke ("Not a Gary Stu) v Rey ("Definitely a Mary Sue") - because being a great X-Wing pilot, knowing how to use the Falcon's quad cannons, outmanouevering stormtroopers etc is normal, but being an innate force user = OP - tend to reinforce a notion that a powerful girl in Star Wars is bad. A notion men push. Nobody was bitterly complaining about Kyle Katarn or Anakin or Luke or Corran Horn (in the bad old EU days) like they did about Mara Jade and Rey. Which itself is pretty telling.

Also given the overweight basement dweller fedora "milady" brigades trolled the audience ratings down... this isn't an unfair point.

11 minutes ago, Endersai said:

Right. I think to be fair I've, on a number of occasions, debated points in this thread. And noting selective readings of Luke ("Not a Gary Stu) v Rey ("Definitely a Mary Sue") - because being a great X-Wing pilot, knowing how to use the Falcon's quad cannons, outmanouevering stormtroopers etc is normal, but being an innate force user = OP - tend to reinforce a notion that a powerful girl in Star Wars is bad. A notion men push. Nobody was bitterly complaining about Kyle Katarn or Anakin or Luke or Corran Horn (in the bad old EU days) like they did about Mara Jade and Rey. Which itself is pretty telling.

Also given the overweight basement dweller fedora "milady" brigades trolled the audience ratings down... this isn't an unfair point.

To be fair, I've heard several women criticizing Rey (here on this board as well). While I haven't ran an extensive demographic analysis, the majority of users here seem to be male. Also, Anakin is the Garyest of Stu's.

I wonder if TFA/TLJ had been made/filmed before the prequels if this argument would exist at all (aside from blatant sexism which I haven't actually seen here yet).

Interesting that it is Marcy that is the one who seems to have the biggest problem with Rey...

Also interesting that if you have a problem with Rey, you have a problem with strong women, even if you dont have a problem with any of the other strong women in the movie.

Just now, korjik said:

Interesting that it is Marcy that is the one who seems to have the biggest problem with Rey...

Also interesting that if you have a problem with Rey, you have a problem with strong women, even if you dont have a problem with any of the other strong women in the movie.

I was thinking something similar, though I don't think that's the point he was making. It just looks that way.

46 minutes ago, Endersai said:

Right. I think to be fair I've, on a number of occasions, debated points in this thread. And noting selective readings of Luke ("Not a Gary Stu) v Rey ("Definitely a Mary Sue") - because being a great X-Wing pilot, knowing how to use the Falcon's quad cannons, outmanouevering stormtroopers etc is normal, but being an innate force user = OP - tend to reinforce a notion that a powerful girl in Star Wars is bad. A notion men push. Nobody was bitterly complaining about Kyle Katarn or Anakin or Luke or Corran Horn (in the bad old EU days) like they did about Mara Jade and Rey. Which itself is pretty telling.

Also given the overweight basement dweller fedora "milady" brigades trolled the audience ratings down... this isn't an unfair point.

At the other hand basically everyone complained about Kyp Durron and that you did not mention him is telling something
SCNR.

Anyway, something to think about: Just because someone is an idiot does not mean that he can't be right sometimes. There might be a crowd which jumps on every strong female character and call them political agenda of the writer, mary sue or whatever. but when aiming at basically everything, you might be right at least sometimes?

Though Rey as a character get a lot more weaknesses in 8 anyway, so her character got for sure more interesting too.

1 hour ago, Endersai said:

Issues I had with the BvS movie, not the specific scene, though what you are showing me is so bad, it could be a Rob Liefeld panel.