On the topic of Mark's comments, people always leave out the stuff that he says after those comments, because it doesn't fit their narrative -

"But listen," the actor adds. "I still haven’t accepted it completely. But it’s only a movie. I hope people like it. I hope they don’t get upset, and I came to really believe that Rian was the exact man that they need for this job.

Let us also not forget that Mark wanted Luke to turn to the Dark Side in RotJ (or, at the very least, suggested the idea) and he's been butting heads with directors since... ANH, I think. Plus, they got the beats for Luke being in exile from story drafts written by Lucas. The campaign to paint Mark as this detractor from everything about the Sequel Trilogy really pisses me off, because that's not at all what he's saying ever. He's still friends with George, but like... the best Star Wars was never done by Lucas, not in directing, or writing. So, he has an attachment there, but that doesn't mean he's automatically right.

(Also, the new generation of fans - their Jedi hero isn't Luke, it's Rey. Just like their flyboy hero isn't Han, it's Poe. And Finn, for some. And Rose, for others!)

Alec Guinness hated Star Wars, Harrison Ford could really give less of a crap about it (he was so thankful they killed Han in TFA, I'm sure) - Mark just got really attached to Luke, and that's awesome, but he's not a storyteller, he's an actor. Frankly, having Luke be exactly the same as he was 30 years prior would just be boring and, in my opinion, what they did with Luke was super, super satisfying.

And, yeah, the whole thing with RT is that there are online troll communes (a lot of it comprised of GamerGate-types) who actively will downvote and upvote **** to cause controversy.

https://hype.my/2017/149941/star-wars-last-jedi-analysis/

Hoping I will enjoy the movie more with subsequent showings.

39 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

I think blaming Lucas that an average actor wasn't able to continue after a bad role is a bit unfair.

Agreed, though I'd be less charitable. This is known as "throwing whatever feeble argument you can think of against the wall and seeing what sticks".

10 minutes ago, StarkJunior said:

Harrison Ford could really give less of a crap about it (he was so thankful they killed Han in TFA, I'm sure)

He wasn't just thankful, it was a condition of his acceptance to do the role.

5 minutes ago, whafrog said:

He wasn't just thankful, it was a condition of his acceptance to do the role.

I thought that was the case, but wasn't sure if I was remembering incorrectly.

25 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

https://deadline.com/2017/12/star-wars-the-last-jedi-rotten-tomatoes-metacritic-imdb-users-cinemascore-posttrak-1202228837/

Is it, though? Divided implies a roughly equal amount of people who liked and disliked the movie, but polls conducted with some care towards being accurate and not open to manipulation show that the negative voices are a tiny minority. They're loud, but they're very few in number.

This idea that the movie is controversial or that is has the fans divided seems to be a narrative that doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

This.

The Star Wars Underworld on Facebook have probably the best example of this. Their comment section under each and every post is people crying/whining/complaining and not just a few but dozens upon dozens. It is literally “george was betrayed”, “my childhood got raped” and “disney is satan” each and every time, those enjoying the movie get bullief, called names and their “fandom” called into question.

Then they put out a poll, a very sime poll: I like The Last Jedi with two options as an answer; either “yes” or “no”.

20,000 votes in yesterday it was 80% yes against 20% no. That is not “divisive”. That is overwhelming positivity.

Yet the vitriol and outrage is so loud people actually believe the community is divided.

10 minutes ago, TrainedMunkey said:

https://hype.my/2017/149941/star-wars-last-jedi-analysis/

Hoping I will enjoy the movie more with subsequent showings.

Everyone has so far.

38 minutes ago, Darzil said:

Based on the small sample of my friends (and to an extent my head), I can certainly believe in a divide. I suspect it is far wider among fans than among moviegoers, as the biggest issues have been with characterisation and star wars feel, rather than quality of movie. And of course fans are more likely to post on review sites.

I think this is the reason for most of the review disparity, or rather, the disparity between exit reviews and site reviews.

Nope.

Because even within fan communities ot is the vocal minority laying waste to civil discourse and shouting down opposite.

Not here. By the way. Let me set that straight.

Yeah, this is by far the most civilized discussion of the movie I've seen so far. (And I include the chat in the pub after the film)

Christensen probably also didn’t do himself any favors in the industry by suing USA network, claiming they stole their series Royal Pains from a pitch he and his brother made for a similar series.

4 hours ago, TrainedMunkey said:

“I said to Rian, ‘Jedi’s don’t give up.’ I mean, even if he had a problem, he would maybe take a year to try and regroup. But if he made a mistake, he would try and right that wrong. So, right there we had a fundamental difference, but it’s not my story anymore. It’s somebody else’s story – and Rian needed me to be a certain way to make the ending effective.

“That’s the crux of my problem. Luke would never say that. I’m sorry. Well, in this version, see I’m talking about the George Lucas Star Wars. This is the next generation of Star Wars, so I almost had to think of Luke as another character. Maybe he’s Jake Skywalker. He’s not my Luke Skywalker, but I had to do what Rian wanted me to do because it serves the story well.” - Mark Hamil

He mirrors my feelings on the subject.

Consider this: The emperor had seen Luke failing, killing his father and joining him on the darkside. This is literal part of Palpatine's vision of the future and the whole reason why he sets up this elaborate trap which kills him in the process. So Luke killing his father in rage was a real option in jedi. So why the **** is killing teenage space hitler not even for a second an option in Luke's mind, especially when the stakes are so much higher than in Jedi. Vader's deeds were all done already, Luke believed in his friends to destroy the death star either way, so even if he failed turning Vader, Vader would be still dead for good. With Kylo at the other hand all the blood would be on Luke's hands. That is a fundamental different situation when compared to Return of the Jedi.

Definitely not the face of someone who wants to murder his dad.

1 hour ago, KungFuFerret said:

Eh, I'd say you only have to look at the responses on this site alone to see it is true the fan base is divided.

Personally I thought it was ok. It had some bits that made me go WTF?, some parts that seemed to drag, and it had 2 climaxes when I felt it should only have had one. But it felt like a Star Wars movie in it's atmosphere and tone, but definitely going for less of the pulp serial feel of high action, and more.....something else. Not really sure what, but a different flavor of Star Wars for sure, in a lot of ways.

For me, I think most of my criticisms are about the structure of it, not so much the story choices, though there were a few. Several times, I was pulled out of the narrative, and found myself analyzing a directorial choice, and it diminished the experience for me a bit. If I had to give it a rating, I'd give it a 7/10. A fun ride with flaws, didn't really stick with me after viewing, and I don't really have a desire to see it again.

We've got a pretty broad sampling of folks here from across social, national, and geographic boundaries that post here, some from different hemispheres. It's about as random a sampling of fans that you can get. I agree, debating there is a debate after reading this thread is nothing I'm interested in arguing over.

I said it before, really doesn't matter whether people like it or dislike it, it's how much does it make.

I think it's possible to disparage the movie without disparaging anyone personally. None of this has gotten me actually upset, it's been more just snarkiness, but there are some clearly overly invested emotionally. You really need to push back from the keyboard and take a walk. It's just a movie for Fs sake. "Breathe. Just breathe."

YOU BREATHE!!!

Sorry...

10 minutes ago, 2P51 said:

it's how much does it make.

It's a little bit down from VII - about 40% - but on pace with R1's box office. From Deadline:

Quote

As we predicted Monday, Disney/Lucasfilm’s Star Wars: The Last Jedi was bound to make just north of $20 million Monday, and early-morning industry estimates see it at $21.8M. Thee running domestic cume for Last Jedi is now at $241.8M, making Last Jedi the 10th-best Monday ever and the fourth best in December after Force Awakens ($40.1M, December 21 2015), Rogue One ($32M, December 26, 2016) and Force Awakens‘ second Monday ($31.3M, December 28). That’s a great Monday figure, and if it looks like Last Jedi is lagging behind, it’s only because there were fewer kids off from school yesterday (17% K-12, 68% college). These figures get higher and higher each day, so by Friday they’ll be at 61% K-12 off and colleges 89% out.

Traditionally, Monday and Tuesday are important indicators of a film's box office trajectory, as those are the days the adults tend to go, where thursday and the weekend are the youngin's time to go. (But really, it's all reading tea leaves and chicken bones by people with marketing degrees - so who knows). And considering that there's nothing coming out in the near future that looks to be a strong contender - sorry, Rock - Star Wars is looking pretty good.

Just now, Desslok said:

It's a little bit down from VII - about 40% - but on pace with R1's box office. From Deadline:

Traditionally, Monday and Tuesday are important indicators of a film's box office trajectory, as those are the days the adults tend to go, where thursday and the weekend are the youngin's time to go. (But really, it's all reading tea leaves and chicken bones by people with marketing degrees - so who knows)

There was no way it was going to match TFA unless it was a movie the fans were of a single mind about. This movie is not a uniter for sure. The question boils down to will the Mouse be happy with a R1 level of take, or will it bring doom upon KK and RJ for coming up 9 or 10 figures short of their expectations.

I'm sure once it opens in China, it'll jump way up. Studios rely a lot on international now, and China is a huge win for Disney, with most of their films.

The other thing to consider? The three day weekend coming up. I'll bet that we'll see a spike in the box office numbers on Christmas itself and some good returns over the christmas break.

18 minutes ago, 2P51 said:

I think it's possible to disparage the movie without disparaging anyone personally.

Sure it's possible, but one flaw in the nerd-verse, is our tendency to associate the things we like, with our own personal identity. Now, this isn't unique to nerds, just look at sports fans, and the crazy shite they do. But in the online spheres, and with current trends in entertainment, the nerd stuff is definitely in ascendency right now, which means we're doing most of the chatter. And we have a BIG problem with "I love this thing, if you say bad things about this thing, you are saying bad things about me, thus you are attacking me, thus I am now defensive" type behavior. I think a good portion of this could be attributed to age, we are more emotionally attached to things when we are younger, but the OT fans that spew toxicity prove it's not entirely an age thing. But for me personally, being 41, and I consider myself an OT fan, I just don't care that much anymore. I'm sure I did back when I was a teenager, and early 20's, but these days, just like what you like. I'm 100% fine with the idea that someone might hate something I love, or vice versa. I might debate/discuss it with them, but in the end, I don't aim to try and change their opinion about it. I just don't care if they like it or not. I'm sure there is something they love that I can't stand, but what is served by trying to tear it down?

So I am happy to have discussions that are along the lines of "I liked this part because X" or "I disliked this part because Y", but when the discussion veers into "This is SHITE, and nothing about it is good, and anyone that thinks so is an idiot", I just step away and go find something else to do. Nothing good can come of that path.

In fact, the debate in this thread, along with some online discussions, has in fact changed my mind on the Canto Bight sequence, so there was some constructive use to it at least.

5 minutes ago, Desslok said:

The other thing to consider? The three day weekend coming up. I'll bet that we'll see a spike in the box office numbers on Christmas itself and some good returns over the christmas break.

For sure. Honestly, I don't think Disney is concerned at all.

1 minute ago, StarkJunior said:

For sure. Honestly, I don't think Disney is concerned at all.

Yeah, they can't hear the complaints over the massive piles of money they have fountaining into a giant pool that they are currently swimming in.

5 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

Yeah, they can't hear the complaints over the massive piles of money they have fountaining into a giant pool that they are currently swimming in.

7 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

Sure it's possible, but one flaw in the nerd-verse, is our tendency to associate the things we like, with our own personal identity. Now, this isn't unique to nerds, just look at sports fans, and the crazy shite they do.

I think this really hits the nail on the head kff on why some of these discussions can get so heated, espeacially when you referenced sports fans.

There is an excellent you tube series that examines this process and I believe it is called nerd complicity with hupermasculinity, Talks about this kind of behavior a bit.