21 minutes ago, Vondy said:

She can read the wisdom in those boring old books Yoda pretended to destroy, but the need for a teacher to pass on Jedi tradition and identity? That's essentially lost in these films.
…
Rey? She's got folktales.

You just watched The Last Jedi!
And Rey got more than just folktales, she got a smart head, the force as her ally and a galaxy to protect. She will figure something out.
The movie might have shown the last chapter about the jedi in the book of the whills, but Guardians of the Whills we have seen only two so far. ;-)

It's star wars, there is space for things beyond the jedi imho. Not that I think this will be a problem, there are still 5 force ghosts around. Maybe 4 if Qui-Gon is gone by now. And the books might be not page turners, but they are the true lessons of the jedi before their ways became corrupted by the dark side temple under coruscant.

8 minutes ago, Vondy said:

I mentioned that she had them. Having a book and understanding how Jedi understood that book is quite another. Example: reading the Hebrew scriptures and being aware of thousands of years of rabbinic exegesis, interpretation, and commentary is another. Understanding how its applied in a traditional community is totally separate from the plain meaning of the text. Sure, maybe the Jedi left each student to find his own meaning, but I suspect their master's were guiding their lessons. What is more, they were learning withing broader culture, lessons, and mores of the Jedi. They had an extant Jedi community. Reading a book from a group does not make you an insider. They had a chain of transmission. Master to student, not book to student. Whatever Rey builds, and what she builds may be incredibly good, will not benefit from the living wisdom of a teacher she can interact with. Unless, of course, Luke is the most active force ghost evah!

But the way of the jedi had been corrupted a few generations before at least, so starting from square one again might be an actual good idea! ;-)

edit: What I mean with that is that when Anakin said."From my perspective the jedi are evil.", he absolutely was correct. The code was not followed anymore by anyone not even by the council members, yet everyone looked elsewhere and ignored it. The only exception might have been Obi-Wan and he was training by an outcast.

53 minutes ago, Vondy said:

Luke, at least, had Kenobi's introduction and Yoda's tutelage in what the Jedi were all about.

Rey? She's got folktales.

It seemed to me she got everything she needed from her meditation session with Luke. That is, the second time she reached out, not the first with the hand-tickle. She found the balance. Then of course she veered off to explore the dark, but for that single moment prior she was a Jedi. And that's all it is, IMHO: the strength and discipline to find that balance and live by it, practice it constantly. It's not about reciting the pros and cons of lightsaber forms 1 through 7, or moving stones. Knowledge is useful, and might help give context, but it's not the key. It's finding and sustaining the balance regardless of challenges. Luke helped Rey find and feel that moment, if she wants to she can find it again. So he did his job.

Yoda pretty much confirms this. The texts might give her context, but his lessons and her experiences are what will give her balance.

49 minutes ago, Vondy said:

Example: reading the Hebrew scriptures and being aware of thousands of years of rabbinic exegesis, interpretation, and commentary is another. Understanding how its applied in a traditional community is totally separate from the plain meaning of the text

I'm not sure Star Wars is really about that. I think Lucas had a more Taoist view, which basically asserts from the beginning of its slender tome that the more you try to define, the less accurate you are: "The Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao; The name that can be named is not the eternal name." Perhaps the downfall of the Jedi was the increasing reliance and adherence to dogma, forgetting how to find their center.

34 minutes ago, whafrog said:

I think Lucas had a more Taoist view, which basically asserts from the beginning of its slender tome that the more you try to define, the less accurate you are: "The Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao; The name that can be named is not the eternal name." Perhaps the downfall of the Jedi was the increasing reliance and adherence to dogma, forgetting how to find their center.

Exactly. That's Zen 101 - the words are meaningless. Do not pay attention to them.

5 hours ago, Endersai said:

how many times you seen it?

First time? I hated it.

Second time? 8/10.

Once was quite enough!

Am I only one who thought @Desslok had just started arguing with himself!?

1 hour ago, Desslok said:

Exactly. That's Zen 101 - the words are meaningless. Do not pay attention to them.

These are not the words you’re looking for?

5 hours ago, SEApocalypse said:

Awesome it would be. But pure fanservice it would be as well. Didn't we already agreed that more fan service was the least thing 8 needed?
Though as Cameo it would have been pretty cool and not distracting enough to be problematic. BUT those guys how are angry now, imagine when you show them Lando and he literally does nothing! ;-)

My preferred Billy Dee WIlliams cameo would be bookending Solo - Lando sitting in a cantina, reminiscing about his recently deceased old pal Han, and telling a tale of their earlier lives.

7 hours ago, SEApocalypse said:

Anyway, Splad, we better don't talk about the movie anymore. Though you made one thing clear: Some people don't like being wrong about something. And this movie did break a lot of expectation intentionally. Some really have a problem with managing their own expectations, assumptions and imagination. The movie really is not a very clever one, but it seems still to much for parts of the target audience. And the most fun part is that they gave the movie a 7/10 still

I will continue to talk about the movie regardless if you participate. Not like I was eager to garner your audience. Either way the movie is made and won't be unmade though JJ can do something with out retconning anything. If that was the intention to break the mold they did that through i feel it was an ill conceived intention to depart from any star wars formula.

Though the review percentages can be manipulated up and down the consensus of many I have spoken to did not care for it. All that can be done is watch and see. Maybe we can all get together in a year and universally condemn the solo movie lol. Though star wars rebels has been great story telling in that universe we have to wait five more months to see the last few episodes.

34 minutes ago, robus said:

Once was quite enough!

consider a few people have said a second viewing was necessary and then maybe think about seeing it again?

15 minutes ago, splad said:

I will continue to talk about the movie regardless if you participate.

Seems like that snarky remark went completely over your head, just like the movie. Watching it again might really help *grin*

22 minutes ago, Endersai said:

consider a few people have said a second viewing was necessary and then maybe think about seeing it again?

I’m good thanks.

1 hour ago, splad said:

Maybe we can all get together in a year

Year? Try like five months.

38 minutes ago, robus said:

I’m good thanks.

I think your doing the movie a disservice. I hate The Remix Awakens with the rage of a thousand burning suns - but before XIII dropped, I went back to watch it one more time. Perhaps after 2 years and some greater context to the movie, I might enjoy it better. No, as it turns out I was correct in my original assessment that it's still a massive pile of flaming dogshit - but I like the franchise enough to give it another go (and I'm willing to give it another shot in 2 years time when IX drops and I get the whole story, not just 2/3rds of it).

If you're nerd enough to hang out on a Star Wars message forum with a Star Wars avatar, you're nerd enough to give it another go down the road. Especially since so many people are changing their minds on a second viewing.

Man, even for someone like me who loved it the first viewing, it just got better with my second viewing. (And third... and fourth...)

the complaints about TFA as derivate etc seem to ignore ANH = Hidden Fortress and both TFA and ANH are Lucasian takes on the nonomyth...

Come at me, bro!

Just got back from seeing it the first time. Absolutely, positively loved it. My wife loved it. My daughter didn't mind it, but had lots of issues with it.

I'm seeing it again in a few days, and only sorry that I couldn't walk straight back into the cinema to watch it again.

ETA: (Oh, and as far as the generational thing goes? My daughter turns 21 in February. My wife is 53, I'm 51. I first saw "Star Wars" - not "Episode IV"; "Star Wars" - at its opening in 1977 when I was 11 years old).

8 hours ago, Endersai said:

consider a few people have said a second viewing was necessary and then maybe think about seeing it again?

Didn't need a second viewing of A New Hope to know I liked it. But my cousins took me to see it a second time and, while I still dislike it, I grew to tolerate most of the things I disliked. First viewing had it ranked as my second least favorite film (TPM being below it). Now it's tied with RotS for 5th.

Saw it for the first time last night. Loved it. Currently still buzzing, to be honest, and want need to see it again. At the moment, it ranks right up there alongside Empire, New Hope and Rogue One. Way better than Force Awakens for me. Absolutely great movie.

Quote

And Rey got more than just folktales, she got a smart head, the force as her ally and a galaxy to protect. She will figure something out.

And AT LAST she doesn't need an old Kung Fu master, straight out of a chinese B-movie to guide her! Sorry folks, but that's all Yoda is in Ep. V.

VIII finally takes the leap to put things right. The Force is no longer exclusively owned by the Jedi - finally there's room for Force-users without the crappy pseudo-zen mixed with Zoroastrism philosophy of the Jedi. And one does not need to be indoctrinated (there's essentially NOTHING useful in the teachings of Yoda regarding the use of the Force, just Jedi-code and a lot of angst) to use the Force. Hey, finally you decide for yourself, if you want to follow the Dark Side - Rey plunges into the Dark Side vergeance and lo and behold! she comes out untainted!

Funny how that lines up pretty well with the tone we saw in the old Clone Wars comics by Dark Horse ...

four more hours until i go to see it aaaaaaaa

and I only saw two spoilers woooooo

11 hours ago, Vondy said:

I mentioned that she had them. Having a book and understanding how Jedi understood that book is quite another. Example: reading the Hebrew scriptures and being aware of thousands of years of rabbinic exegesis, interpretation, and commentary is another. Understanding how its applied in a traditional community is totally separate from the plain meaning of the text. Sure, maybe the Jedi left each student to find his own meaning, but I suspect their master's were guiding their lessons. What is more, they were learning withing broader culture, lessons, and mores of the Jedi. They had an extant Jedi community. Reading a book from a group does not make you an insider. They had a chain of transmission. Master to student, not book to student. Whatever Rey builds, and what she builds may be incredibly good, will not benefit from the living wisdom of a teacher she can interact with. Unless, of course, Luke is the most active force ghost evah!

Real life and realistic example of cultures and personal relationships. Johnson doesn't believe in such things.

Force ghost Luke should be very active in the future. There is still so much tiity milk to drink and sea cows to give pleasure to.

He still needs to raise his x-wing out of the sea. I mean why else would they show his x-wing. Surely they had a reason, some plot point. It couldn't have been a totally worthless shot in a movie where every shot needs to count.

10 minutes ago, TrainedMunkey said:

He still needs to raise his x-wing out of the sea. I mean why else would they show his x-wing. Surely they had a reason, some plot point. It couldn't have been a totally worthless shot in a movie where every shot needs to count.

It tells you how he got to the planet.

It provides a visual parallel to Dagobah, linking his situation to Yoda's.

And it makes him actually being on Crait plausible to the audience - maybe he lifted his sunken X-Wing and flew there!

41 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

It tells you how he got to the planet.

It provides a visual parallel to Dagobah, linking his situation to Yoda's.

And it makes him actually being on Crait plausible to the audience - maybe he lifted his sunken X-Wing and flew there!

While I can see your counter argument, I don't buy it except for your last point.

Did we really need to know how he got to the planet. Was it that important to the plot that we needed a cut where every cut counted?

I don't get the visual parallel. There were x-wings both places in the water? I didn't draw that parallel perhaps you did. Now I will give you that both Yoda and Luke's personalities did a complete 360 during their self imposed exile.

The possibility of him being on Crait, I will give you. I thought he was at first and he should have been. It would have been much better to go out in a glorious saber battle than like a ***** like he did. Force exhaustion can kill, watch out for it you must.

So the purpose of the shot was to fool the audience? Hitchcock he is not. Luke was obviously a projection, there were no red footprints.

I am hoping that with a second showing the movie will grow on me and I won't have to hang my head in shame when I wear my Last Jedi shirt.

8 hours ago, Desslok said:

I think your doing the movie a disservice. I hate The Remix Awakens with the rage of a thousand burning suns - but before XIII dropped, I went back to watch it one more time. Perhaps after 2 years and some greater context to the movie, I might enjoy it better. No, as it turns out I was correct in my original assessment that it's still a massive pile of flaming dogshit - but I like the franchise enough to give it another go (and I'm willing to give it another shot in 2 years time when IX drops and I get the whole story, not just 2/3rds of it).

If you're nerd enough to hang out on a Star Wars message forum with a Star Wars avatar, you're nerd enough to give it another go down the road. Especially since so many people are changing their minds on a second viewing.

Maybe, when I don’t have to pay money (and sit in a theater), and i’ll also have to have 2.5 hours to kill. Maybe on a plane trip? But I have to say once the stupid “holding for general hux” bit comes on (right at the beginning) the urge to switch to something good will be incredibly strong!

2 hours ago, TrainedMunkey said:

I don't get the visual parallel. There were x-wings both places in the water? I didn't draw that parallel perhaps you did. Now I will give you that both Yoda and Luke's personalities did a complete 360 during their self imposed exile.

Oh, I got it.

Why did Luke fail to raise a partially submerged X-wing in TESB? He didn’t believe in the strength of the Force. (In fact, that lack of belief led to him causing the ship to submerge completely.) Now, here he is 30 years later. He’s lost faith in the Force and cut himself off from it. And there’s his X-wing, completely submerged.

This leads the audience to make the leap, when he shows up on Crait, and conclude that his faith has been restored, and he raised the ship.