6 hours ago, 2P51 said:

When you think about it they apparently already had it, since I don't see how Finn would have known about it otherwise.

He didn't know about it, he and Rose figured it out from the available information. The movie is very clear on that.

I saw it on Saturday and still haven't worked out exactly what I thought about it.

I enjoyed it at the time (I go to movies with low expectations), after initial concerns on the initial crawl because it looked like they could be doing a pretty straight remake of Empire, as TFA did of New Hope.

I thought some things were very right. All the characters had story arcs, which all worked in character, and they made sense. After having been disappointed by Ren in TFA, I liked the acting in TLJ, and like the idea of Ren just wanting to burn down anyone who tries to control him. Whilst not entirely sane, it is consistent, and has also led us into an interesting situation. Vader was also not respected, just feared, but was never this unstable, and also never the person in charge. Ren in charge could lead to significant defections to the Resistance, as we now have an organisation based on Order being led by Chaos.

I appreciated the constant subversion of audience expectation, which was the polar opposite of TFA. However, I can also see that this was a very divisive decision, as the other movies have been pretty predictable, which will reduce the star wars feeling. Most of the heroic actions being unsuccessful or costly (other than Luke's) was highly unlike the other movies, where they were almost always (eventually) successful. (Reminded me of Babylon 5, rather than Star Wars or Star Trek)

I thought some things were weak, especially the never ending chase and the casino scenes.

I did think that for a middle movie of a trilogy, it was remarkably standalone. Empire told the story of the escape from the Empire in the first part of the movie, then wandered all over the place. TLJ told the store of the escape from the Empire over the entire movie, with several strands coming together.

There were a bunch of Pandora's boxes clearly opened (some of which were slightly opened before). You need no special equipment to send and receive calls in Hyperspace. You can cloak skips. You can track in hyperspace. You can controllably destroy ships with other ships using hyperspace. You can use the force to survive space. You can use the force to make tangible illusions. You can use the force at distance even without a comm link to the target.

Overall I think it was a good well made movie, and felt enough Star Wars for me. I can also, however, see why many would not agree.

High point in the movie for me: Snoke calling Ren’s mask ridiculous and then seeing him smash it to pieces.

Was the voice track mix seemingly very low for anyone else? I kept reaching for my non-existant remote (when I wasn’t checking my watch... )

Finally I now see why audience reviews are tending to the meh, but I don’t get why the critics are loving it so much? Did they see a critics cut?

5 hours ago, Maelora said:

(I love Carrie, but Mary Poppins Leia? Srsly??)

I didn't mind that. It's just Force Pull, and since she's pulling on the ship, she's the one that's going to move. I also don't think it was really a conscious effort, just survival instinct tapping the Force she already had. It's the way they filmed it that doesn't convey that properly, and yeah, does have that Mary Poppins look

So, it's possible Snoke is alive:

If this is remotely likely in E9...

"Nooooooooooooooo! That's not true, that's impossible!"

I was soooo glad when Snoke bit it, the thought that he was just a Force vision all along is beyond stupid.

25 minutes ago, robus said:

Finally I now see why audience reviews are tending to the meh, but I don’t get why the critics are loving it so much? Did they see a critics cut?

Just read the critiques and you get an idea about that. They seem to actually like consistent movies with themes and decent tone, etc ;-)
In this regard it is easy to forgive as well something like the issue for the world building with hyperspace suicide attacks, when the event itself is of little important for the story. Hyperspace gives good visuals, conventional ramming would have worked just as well for the story progression.

Here a bit from a critique explaining his review:

13 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

Hyperspace gives good visuals, conventional ramming would have worked just as well for the story progression.

Eh, I dunno, she destroyed more than one ship with that hyperspace ramming. I don't think she would've been able to accomplish that with conventional speeds. I think they were going for all of the energy that was gathered to initiate the jump, was added into the impact, making it exponentially (literally) more powerful, and thus able to take out what, I think there were 3 ships in the fleet chasing them?

I could be wrong, but I could've sworn they lit up more than one ship from the impact of her attack.


My opinion on the movie was "eh, it's alright." It had some plot and pacing issues that were noticeable to me, that pulled me out of my immersion, and I thought it should've ended before the salt planet sequence entirely. It felt like two movies running parallel to each other in narrative structure.

I still don't know when in the heck this Snoke guy came into contact with Kylo.

That was one thing that really bugged me.
So Luke says that Kylo already had been influenced by Snoke, apparently before Kylo ever came to Luke's Jedi academy? But it's assumed he'd been there for years, so when did he meet this Snoke guy? I mean, was he just some dude hanging out in the Republic, and Kylo bumped into him at some social function he went to with his mother? I just, I don't understand where this Snoke guy is supposed to fit into all this. Maybe it's explained in a book, but I refuse to have the plot of my movies outsourced to ancillary material that I have to buy separately. I'm ok with doing this with well established characters, like Batman or Superman, or Spiderman, etc, characters so familiar to pop culture that basically everyone knows their basic story outline. But a brand new character in a brand new setting with a brand new story? Sorry, no, you need to explain that crap, not shunt it off to a bit of side material.

4 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

Eh, I dunno, she destroyed more than one ship with that hyperspace ramming. I don't think she would've been able to accomplish that with conventional speeds.

But that is already not important for the story. One shop or one million ship destroyed. The plot point is that fleet is bigger than the resistance can handle, so they run and ramming speed clears MOST, but not all of their problems.

Total unnecessary and blatant over the top? Bull from the world building perspective? Sure. But not relevant by any means for the story at hand.

Same applies for the relation of Snoke with Kylo. It completely irrelevant how Snoke and Kylo meet. They might not have met at all and Luke was just mistaken or Snoks strong telepathic powers are the reason for Luke's assumption or he did fall for the same mistake as his father, blindly thrusting his force vision (again) and acting upon it.

Just now, SEApocalypse said:

But that is already not important for the story. One shop or one million ship destroyed. The plot point is that fleet is bigger than the resistance can handle, so they run and ramming speed clears MOST, but not all of their problems.

Total unnecessary and blatant over the top? bull from the world building perspective? Relevant by any means for the story at hand? Not at all.

Oh, no I wasn't questioning that, I thought you were saying it was over the top to accomplish what it did. I was just saying that I don't think the destructive level would've been the same without the hyperspace. But yeah, it didn't solve their pursuit issue.

And the entire gambling planet plot ultimately didn't resolve anything either. They end up not disabling the device, and get caught instead, making the entire sequence unnecessary. Despite it lead to my favorite scene in the film, taken by itself, it doesn't do anything to progress the plot.

And that is imo fine. This assumption that only success adds to the story is in itself already flawed. The characters do something, they make active decisions, that's what is progressing them as characters even and especially if they don't succeed. Luke ****** up in Empire. He did literally nothing in empire to change anything in the whole movie, yet it did progress his character a lot.

First off let me say that this movie wasn't made for me. It was made to appeal to a new generation. From my limited sample, my teenage children that didn't like the original trilogy, it has succeeded. Disney hasn't become the behemoth that it is by being stupid. They are a corporation and their purpose is to make money. It would have been stupid to make a movie for us old Grognards. They want to make money lots and lots of money. To do this they need to make new customers. They are counting on the old customers hanging around and we will. Rogue One, Han Solo and Kenobi are for us, so Grognards unite and don't feel that you are being left out in the cold.

The movie seemed jarring from the opening scene. I realize it was supposed to. I thought I had walked into a Spaceballs remake at first. I asked my wife if this was a short that was showing before the movie started.

Examining character in depth isn't Star Wars, or wasn't Star Wars at least. Star Wars is about action. Star Wars is about noble warriors saving the day. Star Wars is about hubris and tragedy. If I want to see character building and tearing down, I will go see one of the academy award nominations for the year.

So Rey, the main character of the new trilogy, is a nobody with no heritage? Ok, so that is pretty much my life. Why do I want to see a movie about that? My life is pretty boring and tedious. It would be one thing if they built her up as a noble warrior out to save the galaxy. What has she done? Did she kill Snoke? Did she turn Kylo to the light? She did follow the lure of the dark side so she could look in the endless mirror. She did steal Luke's books. If you are going to build up the nobody from nowhere that saves the galaxy, you need to let her be a hero. They managed to do that in the first movie of the original trilogy. She did manage to save the day by moving some rocks. Not quite the same as blowing up a planet destroying space station.

If you are going to destroy my childhood heroes, please do it with some style and not with elementary school humor. When Luke tossed his saber over his shoulder I got up to walk out of the theater but my wife grabbed my hand. When he wharfed down the green milk and the creature sat back and enjoyed it, there was something very sexual about it and it literally made me throw up a little. Luckily I had a Stormtrooper popcorn box to throw up in. Luke Skywalker the Jedi gigolo, really Johnson? I hate you!

Obviously the idea of this movie was to break down all the tropes of the previous Star Wars movies. There is a problem with that, the tropes worked and it created millions of fans. These tropes were part of the human mythology and they have been around for a couple years.

Before this movie Star Wars was a modern mythology. Now it's a character examination.

Unfortunately I have already bought tickets to see it with my father in iMax. Maybe after a second showing I will come away with a better feeling towards the movie. I have my doubts.

The gave this hack Johnson his own trilogy?

Just now, SEApocalypse said:

And that is imo fine. This assumption that only success adds to the story is in itself already flawed. The characters do something, they make active decisions, that's what is progressing them as characters even and especially if they don't succeed. Luke ****** up in Empire. He did literally nothing in empire to change anything in the whole movie, yet it did progress his character a lot.

Except I don't think Finn or Rose learned anything from their mistakes from their plot thread. Poe did, we see that very clearly. But Finn/Rose? What did they learn? Don't trust Benecio Del Torro? The only thing that progressed is that teaser with the slave kid on that planet, who might be important to Ep. 9, or possibly in the new trilogy they might be doing. But if so, that's a lot of screen time devoted to a very minor bit of progression.

As to the comparison to Luke in Empire, I agree, but Rey already did that plot thread, of showing up to confront, and failing.

I dunno, it just felt like a lot of wasted screen time that could've been spent fleshing out someone else. Or I don't know, letting Rose be the one to do the slicing, and have the entire thing be just trying to get them onto the ship.

Also, how does Finn know all those technical details about the engineering workings of a capital ship? He's a self-proclaimed Janitor. Now I can understand him know basic infantry skills, as anyone in the military is taught that in basic. But after that, his job classification was apparently "Janitor", which is not the same thing as "Engineering Specialist" xD So how was he echoing Rose's words about some entirely new form of tracking technology while she's thinking it through?

Finn always claims to be just the janitor, but iirc his unit, his training, was actually special forces. While the mission on jakku was his first combat mission, his unit was still exclusive enough to be the escort for the big bad darksider during a critical mission.

Anyway, speaking of things. I think we get casino city for the very specific reason to introduce the common folks and the real ruling class of the galaxy to the audience. So the guys the resistance is fighting for and recruiting from and the guys who are behind the first order, the ones who are profiting from the war and doing so since even before the clone wars. The corruption was already rampant during the old republic, Palpatine did not create it either, it was already there and he used it in his rise to power, just like the first order did use it. No matter how many Snoke's, no matter how many dictators will get assassinated, it will not change the fundamental problem of the galaxy. That was imho to point of the casino scenes and Rose knew this all along, but she showed it to Finn, he at first thought that the city was just a beautiful place, not a palace built upon slavery, oppression and war.

14 minutes ago, TrainedMunkey said:

When Luke tossed his saber over his shoulder I got up to walk out of the theater but my wife grabbed my hand.

Weirdly that was my favourite moment of the movie!

4 minutes ago, TrainedMunkey said:

So Rey, the main character of the new trilogy, is a nobody with no heritage? Ok, so that is pretty much my life. Why do I want to see a movie about that?

Because she's a hero of humble origins rising to the call to action? One of the most staple of tropes that you laud later on in your post?

5 minutes ago, TrainedMunkey said:

It would be one thing if they built her up as a noble warrior out to save the galaxy.

That's pretty much what they are doing. They are stretching it out over the trilogy, because it was planned ahead of time. I don't see how this is any different from say, the Lord of the Rings, another example of a hero of humble origins, who is in fact, special because he's not special. He was very reluctant to be the Hero that Middle Earth needed, and in fact, spent a lot of time trying to give the ring to someone else. So I don't really see how this is a fundamental flaw for Rey. The Reluctant Hero is again, another well used trope, time tested and approved for generations.

8 minutes ago, TrainedMunkey said:

What has she done?

Defeated a trained apprentice of the Dark Side without any training of her own. Broke out of Imperial imprisonment and escaped, helping to facilitate the destruction of the Starkiller Base by sabotaging it from the inside. Yeah she had help, but so did Luke, so again, not sure how this is a flaw for her.

10 minutes ago, TrainedMunkey said:

Did she kill Snoke?

No, but Luke didn't kill the Emperor, Vader did that.

11 minutes ago, TrainedMunkey said:

Did she turn Kylo to the light?

No, but by the point in Empire, Luke hadn't done that either. He also got whooped by Vader, so I don't really see how it's an issue for Rey. Middle acts of a three act structure have failure and loss, it's kind of a trope. You push the protagonists to their darkest moment, when All Is Lost, leading up to the climax. The enemy surely about to win, but the heroes succeed and live to fight another day. If it's a single story (one movie), this is when the badguys ultimately lose. If it's a larger structure (like a trilogy), it's where the heroes defy death, have a slim hope for victory later, but are still in pretty dire straits.

14 minutes ago, TrainedMunkey said:

If you are going to build up the nobody from nowhere that saves the galaxy, you need to let her be a hero. They managed to do that in the first movie of the original trilogy. She did manage to save the day by moving some rocks.

She also flew in, classic Han style, and started blasting fighters to give the heroes a clear shot at the Big Weapon. She then engaged in a multi ship dogfight, alone (yes with Chewie), to give them time to get the shot in.

17 minutes ago, TrainedMunkey said:

Obviously the idea of this movie was to break down all the tropes of the previous Star Wars movies. There is a problem with that, the tropes worked and it created millions of fans. These tropes were part of the human mythology and they have been around for a couple years.

And they used tons of the same tropes that the original series used, as well as tons of other tropes that have stood the test of time.

4 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

Because she's a hero of humble origins rising to the call to action? One of the most staple of tropes that you laud later on in your post?
…
And they used tons of the same tropes that the original series used, as well as tons of other tropes that have stood the test of time.

You are only allowed to give 50 likes per day. You cannot give any more likes today.

26 minutes ago, TrainedMunkey said:

So Rey, the main character of the new trilogy, is a nobody with no heritage? Ok, so that is pretty much my life. Why do I want to see a movie about that? My life is pretty boring and tedious.

I see the problem. You should do like Rey, start some lightsaber training and maybe save a planet or something like that. YOur life would be so much less boring and tedious. I swear, lightsabers and stick fighting are fun. And fighting each day for your food is at least not boring!

16 hours ago, Ireul said:

"Dark rises, and Light to meet it." Rey was chosen by the will of the Force to be the champion of the Light, the balance against Kylo - a dark-sider so powerful that Luke, who had faced Vader and Sidious, who had trained under Yoda - had never seen one as powerful as him. By your own argument Rey is as much a nobody as Anakin.

She wasn't part of a thousand year old prophecy, she wasn't a manifest destiny. Snoke was all "I thought it was Skywalker who would meet the challenge, but I guess it was you instead" straight out wrong. Anakin and Rey are completely polar opposites. This is reinforced by the later themes in the film and it's backed up by the director:

Quote

“For me, in that moment, Kylo believes it’s the truth,” Johnson told Entertainment Weekly. “I don’t think he’s purely playing chess. I think that’s what he saw when they touched fingers and that’s what he believes. And when he tells her that in that moment, she believes it.”

There are a lot of reasons why, at least for me, having Rey’s parents not matter works better than if she had been part of some iconic Star Wars lineage. Mainly, it works with The Last Jedi’s theme of greatness coming from anywhere—for example, the little boy from Canto Bight, Force-grabbing his broom in the final shot. The main franchise has depended so much on the Skywalker legacy that little wiggle room has been made for the future of the series, at least before now. For Johnson, specifically, he wanted the reveal both to reflect and subvert Luke and Vader’s in The Empire Strikes Back, calling back to how much it devastated Luke while also not giving Rey an automatic place in the Star Wars universe based on hereditary. She’s earned it on her own.

“The easiest thing for Rey and the audience to hear is, ‘Oh yeah, you’re so-and-so’s daughter.’ That would be wish fulfillment and instantly hand her a place in this story on a silver platter,” Johnson said. “The hardest thing for her is to hear she’s not going to get that easy answer.”

That said, when Johnson was asked whether Rey’s parentage could be changed in the future, he said it’s not up to him anymore. Surprisingly, Rey’s parental reveal wasn’t pre-determined by Disney executives before handing the series to Johnson, at least according to the director. He was given creative freedom to do what he wished with the reveal first teased in The Force Awakens. In the same vein, J.J. Abrams and Chris Terrio, who are taking over Episode IX, also have the freedom to retcon Rey’s parents if they want to—though I hope they don’t.

“I can’t speak to what they’re going to do. And there’s always, in these movies, a question of ‘a certain point of view,’” Johnson said.

51 minutes ago, TrainedMunkey said:

Examining character in depth isn't Star Wars, or wasn't Star Wars at least.

Everything you just said in that sentence is wrong.

54 minutes ago, TrainedMunkey said:

So Rey, the main character of the new trilogy, is a nobody with no heritage? Ok, so that is pretty much my life. Why do I want to see a movie about that?

No, the movie is about a schlubb from nowhere embarking on their heroes journey and rising to the call. You could be great and do great things. Your fate, to steal a line from T2, is what you make.

59 minutes ago, TrainedMunkey said:

Before this movie Star Wars was a modern mythology. Now it's a character examination.

I fail to see how deconstructing this mythology is a bad thing? Or would you just rather they kept on blowing up bigger and bigger planet killing spheres?

1 hour ago, TrainedMunkey said:

So Rey, the main character of the new trilogy, is a nobody with no heritage? Ok, so that is pretty much my life. Why do I want to see a movie about that?

This makes no sense. You already saw that movie and apparently loved it. Luke wasn't anybody in E4, just a plucky farmer with a family grudge and good on the stick.

You don't need the heroes to have a heritage.

I hope that it will grow on me with another showing. I do love the SW universe very much. I guess I am just getting old and don't like change. The parts I hated outweighed the parts I loved. Hoping that will change.

1 hour ago, TrainedMunkey said:

First off let me say that this movie wasn't made for me. It was made to appeal to a new generation.

Definitely. The movie was Yoda's line writ large: 'The tragedy of a master is to be the thing our students move beyond'. If the new trilogy was just a retread of the original, it'd be the same as the First Order; just retreading the Empire (or to a lesser extent, the New Republic aping the old).

It took the elements of the old (to take an example from your post, Luke, Jedi Mentor pretending to be a crazy old man just like Obi-Wan and Yoda before him), embraced them, but moved beyond them. After TFA, we all expected this film would be a retread of ESB. After TLJ, the next film could go anywhere.

---
E: To an extent, this is made apparent in the Rey/Kylo split. Kylo's torn between obsessive reverence for legacy, and wanting to burn it all down to free himself. Rey wants to learn from the past and believes she needs a legacy to give her worth, but is forced to chart her own path beyond it.

17 minutes ago, whafrog said:

This makes no sense. You already saw that movie and apparently loved it. Luke wasn't anybody in E4, just a plucky farmer with a family grudge and good on the stick.

You don't need the heroes to have a heritage.

Quite - I’m all dynastied out!

7 hours ago, Maelora said:

Oh Phee, you read my mind (and stole my thoughts! )

But yeah, I agree. I didn't hate it but... Disney and I just have different ideas about things.

I think at this point 'The Force' is just plot-magic that does whatever the writers want it to do. (I love Carrie, but Mary Poppins Leia? Srsly??)

Same for the science and 'hyperspace' really. The mechanics of the universe work whatever way the plot needs right now.

I get 'Rule of Cool', sure, but you need some consistency too

I have a tendency to do that !

I too really didn't like the bridge-explosion scene, in particular. I know what they were going for: they wanted to kill Leia and yet not kill her. But you can't do that, in my opinion. And yeah, Ackbar should not be going out like that . Poor Ackbar. This one was a trap, too. Only a trap concocted by the writers, and you can't command your way out of those...

Super-Leia was supposed to show that, even though she didn't study the Force, her strong connection to it (because she's a Kardashian Skywalker) was able to save her. Except...she never studied the Force. It's understandable she might get feelings and have that uncanny knowledge of events, especially when they involve her family and those close to her (as we saw in TFA). But Move strong enough to pull her from the void of space into the ship before she melts or explodes or whatever it is vacuum does to a person (suffocates and falls unconscious at the very least, right)? That's something that would be insanely useful, and something we never see fully-trained Jedi doing at any point.

Now granted, that's because this is literally the first time we've seen someone floating in space before in a Star Wars movie, but the reason for that is because every character, Jedi Masters included, have known the instant you're out of a ship, you're a cooked turkey. JJ gave an interview about Leia and the Force for TFA, and he stated that while she could have followed that path and been a powerful Force-user, she chose not to, and went on to political and military leadership as her path, instead. She's a Diplomat with the Force-Sensitive Emergent spec, not a Guardian. (I know that RPG terms have no real place when discussing the movies in and of itself, but it's the concept, not the exact mechanics.)

I'm gonna stop before I really get going. Most of you seem to agree or at least understand where I'm coming from, so.

Oh, and by-the-by, Marcy: it was incredibly rude of you to post here before I'd seen the movie! How am I supposed to creepily post-stalk you if I can't go into the main thread you're posting in ! Poor form, poor form all around!*

* Obviously, this line is meant entirely in jest, but I wanted a disclaimer, just in case.

Not so much a spoiler as an idle thought:

How widely known is it that Kylo Ren is Ben Solo? And why isn’t the First Order using that as a propaganda tool?

”Even the son of two of the greatest so-called ‘heroes’ of the war, who studied under the fabled Jedi Skywalker, recognizes the folly of the New Republic and the rightful place of the First Order!”