The "Luke discovers actual balance" thing is what my zero-eu headcanon has been for a while. I'd love to see that actually applied to the universe.

A more ambitious theory:

Luke has been chilling in Ireland, I mean a distant planet communing with Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Anakin to bring the end to the Jedi/Sith dual and thus restore balance to the galaxy (Anakin's destiny).

Luke is the last jedi knight and that is now a "good" thing because he's starting up the new Jedi/Sith Knights: ones with control over the whole of the Force, not just the light and the dark.

Crazy...I know...

Crazy, but I like it.

I've noticed for some time that Star Wars has been playing a little fast and lose on what is a Jedi. Ahsoka is a Jedi, but then left and isn't a Jedi. Kanan is and isn't. Who knows what Ezra is.

And all it really takes to be a Jedi it seems is for Master Yoda to say you are, and he might not even say it in person.

Kinda Crazy.

Well being a Jedi mean being part of the Jedi Order. Ahsoka was a Jedi but she caught the boot and refused to come back. Kanan was a padawan when the Order fell but he was knighted by Yoda, who is a member of the Jedi Order defunct though it may be, via a force vision and is a Jedi. Ezra is still in training and it is unclear what he will be.

Since this is Disney, I feel like the title is what most people will initially read it as...Rey becomes the last one and Luke dies. Or it's a reference to Luke being the last one (most likely). Either way, a classic Disney story about individualism and female empowerment in some manner. Not that I don't like women, they're fantastic. I just really don't want Disney to keep messing up a good story with cheesy themes/storylines/plot holes for an agenda

Are we seriously going to have to have this F-ING conversation again?!

I like the title myself. I'm excited to see which direction they go. Introducing grey Jedi into the movie canon would be nice, but a lot of SW *is* about cycles repeating themselves, so who knows. I'm hoping for originality, creativity, and excitement, with a decent splash of emotion to pull me along by the heartstrings.

I've noticed for some time that Star Wars has been playing a little fast and lose on what is a Jedi. Ahsoka is a Jedi, but then left and isn't a Jedi. Kanan is and isn't. Who knows what Ezra is.

And all it really takes to be a Jedi it seems is for Master Yoda to say you are, and he might not even say it in person.

Kinda Crazy.

Jedi seems like it can either mean an actual member of the Jedi order, or colloquially to refer to anyone who is able to intentionally manipulate the Force

Star Wars' new canon has been doing something interesting with Force Users for a while.

Starting with Maz Kanata and developing it with the Bendu from Rebels, I think we're starting to see the idea that force users are not just Black (Sith) and White (Jedi) gain traction. The force isn't as divided as that, it's a cosmic thing that different groups use in different ways.

Luke is the last of the Jedi because he is the last one trained in the Jedi arts from a line of masters going back thousands of years. Specifically, the last one to receive training from a grandmaster on the council of the jedi (Yoda).

Kanan was a padowan, but I don't think he was ever officially knighted, so he and Ezra are Jedi only that they use light-side training and fall under the coloquial use of the term (lighsaber wielders using the Force, but not employed by the Empire). The two of them not being Jedi makes them exempt from Yoda's statement.

So the Last Jedi could be the story surrounding Luke's return to the galaxy specifically. Rey will learn from him through the ways of the force, Kylo Ren will be seeking him (to Destroy him?) and the rest of the galaxy may be hoping again that Luke would retore the Jedi order... or not. Maybe the entire point is Luke realizing the Jedi had their problems too, and he should be the last one. He could allow Ray to decide her own destiny in the force, not bound by the Jedi-Sith split that has caused centuries of war. Then her mission is to end Kylo ren and finish the destructive conflict that has bisected the Force all this time.

If so, by 9 we'll be analyzing the three movements of Star Wars and how both sides of the Force handled this split in each trilogy. In the first, the dark side won. In the second, the light side won. By the third, balance is at last restored in the Force.

*Shrug*

Since this is Disney, I feel like the title is what most people will initially read it as...Rey becomes the last one and Luke dies. Or it's a reference to Luke being the last one (most likely). Either way, a classic Disney story about individualism and female empowerment in some manner. Not that I don't like women, they're fantastic. I just really don't want Disney to keep messing up a good story with cheesy themes/storylines/plot holes for an agenda.

Jesus Christ dude. You do realize that if you have to qualify your statement with "Not that I don't like women," you're definitely saying something hella sexist right?

Since this is Disney, I feel like the title is what most people will initially read it as...Rey becomes the last one and Luke dies. Or it's a reference to Luke being the last one (most likely). Either way, a classic Disney story about individualism and female empowerment in some manner. Not that I don't like women, they're fantastic. I just really don't want Disney to keep messing up a good story with cheesy themes/storylines/plot holes for an agenda.

Jesus Christ dude. You do realize that if you have to qualify your statement with "Not that I don't like women," you're definitely saying something hella sexist right?

No, I'm saying something that could be misinterpreted as "hella sexist." I'm complaining that TFA made every male character with the exception of Han and Poe look like complete bafoons, while the women were highlighted in cinematically unbalanced roles. That is sexist. My comment was intended to be humurous, thus my reasoning for following it up with "they're fantastic."

And Jesus has nothing to do with this.

Not sure if I want to dignify that part of the discussion with a response but...

I didn't recognize any sexist slant when watching The Force Awakens. I didn't have a problem with any of the characters, and didn't feel there was any kind of agenda being pushed with their casting choices.

I enjoyed it as the first big new Star Wars ride since the wonky ending of the Prequels, and I was satisfied enough with the movie to want more.

I imagine a lot of other people saw it the same way and don't want to have someone inject ulterior political motives into something we're find enjoyable.

Now, let's continue talking about Star Wars 8.

Cool. Episode 8 will be about the last of the Jedi, so that Episode 9 can be about the Imperial Knights. Works for me, I like me some silver lightsabers.

Cool. Episode 8 will be about the last of the Jedi, so that Episode 9 can be about the Imperial Knights. Works for me, I like me some silver lightsabers.

I love those guys. One of the few EU things that I saw and just said "Yup. I want this. 1000% my thing."

Since this is Disney, I feel like the title is what most people will initially read it as...Rey becomes the last one and Luke dies. Or it's a reference to Luke being the last one (most likely). Either way, a classic Disney story about individualism and female empowerment in some manner. Not that I don't like women, they're fantastic. I just really don't want Disney to keep messing up a good story with cheesy themes/storylines/plot holes for an agenda.

Jesus Christ dude. You do realize that if you have to qualify your statement with "Not that I don't like women," you're definitely saying something hella sexist right?

No, I'm saying something that could be misinterpreted as "hella sexist." I'm complaining that TFA made every male character with the exception of Han and Poe look like complete bafoons, while the women were highlighted in cinematically unbalanced roles. That is sexist. My comment was intended to be humurous, thus my reasoning for following it up with "they're fantastic."

And Jesus has nothing to do with this.

F-it. Reported. I don't have the energy today for another one of these g-d arguments with a whiny douchebro.

Since this is Disney, I feel like the title is what most people will initially read it as...Rey becomes the last one and Luke dies. Or it's a reference to Luke being the last one (most likely). Either way, a classic Disney story about individualism and female empowerment in some manner. Not that I don't like women, they're fantastic. I just really don't want Disney to keep messing up a good story with cheesy themes/storylines/plot holes for an agenda.

Jesus Christ dude. You do realize that if you have to qualify your statement with "Not that I don't like women," you're definitely saying something hella sexist right?

No, I'm saying something that could be misinterpreted as "hella sexist." I'm complaining that TFA made every male character with the exception of Han and Poe look like complete bafoons, while the women were highlighted in cinematically unbalanced roles. That is sexist. My comment was intended to be humurous, thus my reasoning for following it up with "they're fantastic."

And Jesus has nothing to do with this.

F-it. Reported. I don't have the energy today for another one of these g-d arguments with a whiny douchebro.

I apologize if I offended you? My sense of humor sometimes (usually) doesn't translate through the webs because I forget to use emoticons. But even so, what about my post warrants a report? It seems pretty suddenly escalated

Sexism, pure and simple. You complained about some "social agenda" just because a woman was the lead, and TWICE no less! I mean, could they BE less obvious?

If you weren't trying to be sexist, then you were accidentally perfect at it. Maybe try and rephrase. I've had this conversation too many times in a forum about space lasers, massive ships, and tiny plastic toys where I just want to have fun and pretend there isn't a giant mountain of misogyny waiting for me every time I leave my home.

Individualism and empowerment have always been themes of the SW. Not to mention the classic american theme of "rags to riches". The original trilogy can be seen to tackle then contemporary issues like Vietnam War.

In this sense - it only makes sense that the movies of today (and the franchise as whole, from bubblegum wrappings to Armada cards), respect this legacy by tackling current issues with nerd culture and female empowerment. These things do not come form the D - they are essential part of the franchise.

Ep 6 was called return of the jedi and ep 8 is like "sorry no".

That's what i don't like about it. Kylo really killed all that young jedi? Cause... you know, rey duel didn't turn out well for him. I was hoping some apprentices of luke are still around. But alright, let's see how it will turn out.

Kylo lost the duel because firstly he was shot. Second, kylo became really weak after killing his father from emotional trauma and finally kylo didnt want to kill rey as he could of just pushed her off the cliff during the lightsaber lock and he offers to teach her. I also believe kylo knows who rey is.

10 hours ago, Admiral Theia said:

Sexism, pure and simple. You complained about some "social agenda" just because a woman was the lead, and TWICE no less! I mean, could they BE less obvious?

If you weren't trying to be sexist, then you were accidentally perfect at it. Maybe try and rephrase. I've had this conversation too many times in a forum about space lasers, massive ships, and tiny plastic toys where I just want to have fun and pretend there isn't a giant mountain of misogyny waiting for me every time I leave my home.

You are right. I could have rephrased in a way that removes any indication of sexism. But that's the thing about most humour. It pokes at the dark underbelly of society. And while I wasn't malicious, I will also concede that my post contained some semblance of microaggression. Not what I intended, but it is there.

So for my rephrase, the movie looked cool, the story was Star Warsy, and the lightsabers were cool. But they absolutely sacrificed quality storytelling for shoddy convenience of flow, which absolutely did push an agenda (I also realize now that my tone indicated that I was opposed to this agenda). I'm not saying the agenda is wrong, just that they can and should do better. You can deny that Disney has an agenda (apart from profits), but I would venture to say you are wrong. We are entitled to our opinions.

I like the title. If it follows the same trend as the original trilogy (which seems likely, given that episode 7 was almost a remake of episode IV), this movie will be darker with the First Order or other Imperial Remnants seemingly on the brink of total victory. I'm looking forward to that.

fun fact about the title:

We haven't gotten the French version of the title yet, because it would spoil if it's plural or singular, and male or female, as in french you have to make the difference between each.

It would have to be either:

"Le dernier Jedi" (meaning Luke is the last one)

"Les derniers Jedi" (which means there are more than one)

"La dernière Jedi" (which would mean Rey is the last one).

2 hours ago, Parkdaddy said:

You are right. I could have rephrased in a way that removes any indication of sexism. But that's the thing about most humour. It pokes at the dark underbelly of society. And while I wasn't malicious, I will also concede that my post contained some semblance of microaggression. Not what I intended, but it is there.

So for my rephrase, the movie looked cool, the story was Star Warsy, and the lightsabers were cool. But they absolutely sacrificed quality storytelling for shoddy convenience of flow, which absolutely did push an agenda (I also realize now that my tone indicated that I was opposed to this agenda). I'm not saying the agenda is wrong, just that they can and should do better. You can deny that Disney has an agenda (apart from profits), but I would venture to say you are wrong. We are entitled to our opinions.

That is a much more thoughtful way to put it. Now, let's think about that opinion for a minute, and see if we can't dissect it. When a movie stars all men (or singular bad-ass men), and the only women are "incompetent", do you consider that an agenda? I would bet a great deal of money that you don't. Why? Because men being dominant is seen as the "normal way", the same for women being portrayed as incompetent, stupid, and/or shallow. Take Ghostbusters, Ghostbusters featured a fully male cast except for the secretary (who they "bimbo'd up" for the sequel, though she wasn't some feminist icon in the first one either). The 2016 version did the same in reverse, but only one of them was decried for having an "agenda". When it empowers men it's normal, when it empowers women it's an "agenda" (a word that has become loaded, unfortunately, with a great deal of negative connotation these days thanks to many of your fellow men who are misogynists and their woman sympathizers/Stockholm-victims). That is the underlying prejudice, built into you through your complete immersion into this annoying patriarchal system we were all born into, that comes through whether you mean it to or not. It is there, and you should examine why it is there.

This is the biggest problem, and what you usually hear women talking about when we say we deal with sexism every day. We aren't pinched and grabbed each day. Our bosses don't demand quid-pro-quos on the regular. We aren't even cat-called each day (though sometimes it seems like it). No, it is the thousand little things expressed each day that are based off the sexism built into the fabric of our society, into the very foundations of our social rules and understandings. It is hearing them expressed off hand, matter-of-fact-ly that gets to us. It is getting shouted down every time we speak up that leads some of us (myself included in case you all haven't noticed) to get very angry about it and start to take no **** and give no ****. Not being sexist doesn't just require you to not intentionally denigrate and harass women, but rather to examine the very motivations in your words and ideas.

On 1/23/2017 at 1:14 PM, Swusn said:

I don't want to be "that guy" but the plural of Octopus is actually Octopuses. I swear it.

The plural of Jedi is Jedi but I always took the title "Return of the Jedi" to be a reference to either Luke returning as a fully trained Jedi night or even more subtley Anakin coming back to the light (maybe both). I don't think it meant the Jedi order had returned because the movie clearly had nothing to do with any Jedi except Luke and Anakin.

Octopodes

*oops*

20 hours ago, Admiral Theia said:

When it empowers men it's normal, when it empowers women it's an "agenda"

I'm forced to disagree slightly. My issue with the Ghostbusters movie was that they took an existing story, and did a gender swap on it, for the sole purpose of making something that was a male thing into a female thing. That's pushing an agenda. I might agree with that agenda, or I might not; that's irrelevant.

The new Star Wars movies, (TFA, and R1) are telling a continuation of a story, and this time, it's female leads instead of male leads. That's not an agenda, that's just the new characters. Even if it IS an agenda, they aren't mucking up the stories I'm enjoying, so they can push what they like. The amount I could care about the gender of the lead is amazingly small. If I find the lead attractive, well, that's all to the good. If not, then the story is still entertaining.

I contend that most (but not all) people worried about "pushing an agenda" are worried about that agenda being a detriment to the story. I've heard multiple reviews of the new Ghostbusters, ranging from "feminist diatribe," to "triumph of feminism" but I haven't heard whether or not it's a good movie, at least not from an unbiased source. (mostly people who liked the feminist angle thought the movie was great, and people who hated the feminist angle thought the movie was ****) That's not what I want for Star Wars. Put strong Female Characters in. Make them the lead. Make them the new Jedi. No problem. Just make sure you're telling a Star Wars story, not a political opinion piece.

----

As to the topic of the actual thread: I'm worried about the title. Supposedly Snoke and Kylo aren't Sith, but something else. The Sith are gone from the galaxy. If Luke is the last of the jedi, and Ray is to be something else, then we've lost a critical part of the Star Wars universe. It's always been Jedi and Sith. Legends has it as Jedi and Sith back to the dawn of recorded history. They don't have to be in every story, no, but to eliminate them entirely is a terrible, terrible move.

Can we blame this on JJ too, or has he left the team?

He has no part of EpVIII. Left the Team.