There have, in the recent and not so recent past, a fair bit of criticism levied against the game play features of Armada. But to talk about that, I need to discuss the difference between a critique and a review...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5UVuZmxOvE

This video does it much, much better than I ever could, but for a too long didn't watch (though you should, the whole channel is very insightful and put me in a youtube hole for 2 nights) is that criticism is by its very nature created by those who are invested in the product and want it to succeed. They aren't anti-game by their very nature - they don't want it to fail, but thrive, and have found concerns that to them suggest that it could be improved. Stay with me here for a bit - the people that are passionate about saying how the game is broken are deeply invested in the game - as deeply as yourself probably are, posting here on this forum created by the designers for discussing the game.

Now where I am going with this is a call for civility, now that things have perhaps calmed down a little bit. The criticism, whether you agree with it or not, and whether it has to do with Tie Breakers, Intentional Draws, Demolisher, Major Rhymer and his giant balls, or Flotillas appear to some as problems that are in need of analysis and solution. Those solutions can likely be found within the game, but sometimes (see Intentional Draws / VSDs need buffs) they need criticism from the community at large to spur a change toward being made better. There is a lot of good things that criticism on these very forums did for our community and game.

On the other hand, if you are providing criticism, you also cannot afford to lash out at those you are setting out to convince. "Flotillas are bad for the game" is going to be a hot button topic, sure, but no matter which side of the fence you are on you can't begin name calling, ad hominum attacks, or just saying people on the other side are dumb and need to be banned.

I'm glad I had time to write this up to chat about it today, even if it is a few weeks late. I was bored.

A well put together post, on an important (and sorely needed) subject. Timely, too. Thanks, Biggs.

I'll tell you, I haven't been as active on the forums lately because of the "heated debates" taking place. I don't feel wading into those quagmires would have been productive, because it was pretty obvious that they were not healthy debates. One thing we have to remember as a community is that:

Opinions cannot by their nature be wrong

You can disagree completely with opinions, but if you reply to an opinion with "This is why you are wrong" you're not doing it right. Also, feelings shouldn't come into it. If someone tells you you are an idiot for thinking the way you do, ignore them. They are the ones that have to live with judgement of others. I like this quote, while it mentions hatred, it has been used for anger as well:

“Hatred is like a poison which you inject into your veins, before injecting it into your enemy. It is throwing cow dung at another: you dirty your hands first, before you dirty others.” -Gems of Buddhist Wisdom (1996)

Wish I had time to watch it now, but I'll have to wait till after work.

As someone who will soon be getting into the game, I like reading the various topics. Probably won't effect my choices, but helps to balance my expectations.

I find myself viewing the pages less and less because of the god forsaken threads that are ruling it. I may on occasion type up a "Grumpy Cat" response to things only to disregard it knowing it'd be entertaining to me, but not really helpful or useful (or even generally entertaining).

I don't mind debate, but I do shy from it, and especially straight up confrontation. Ultimately, this is just a game.

I'll cheers to that! Thanks for the link to the video Biggs, you have managed to eat up an hour and a half of my work productivity!

My main criticism is the Dreadnought Heavy Cruiser is not in game yet, a personal favorite of mine. Sorry getting a bit specific, off topic, and yes I often times miss the point.

Thanks Biggs. Unfortunately not in a spot I can watch it right now, so thanks for the summary.

My two cents: I think there are valid criticisms to be made of Armada. Some have shown up here on these boards and made them; some have even driven change. I'll point out Mike McMann's DeMSU Regionals Crusade of 2016. I love discussing these things, even though it can be hard to get anywhere.

Furthermore, there are plenty of people on here who have opinions that are wrong I disagree with. Blail on squadrons, Norse on the viability of large ships, Ginkapo on his ridiculous notion that Sensor Teams aren't trash, Dras on whether he's a rules guru. But I still respect all of these guys, and even though discussions on these topics might get a little tense, they never degenerate into outright flame wars. Let me talk about why I still respect these guys.

1) They all contribute to the community in unrelated topics. Sure their input is informed by their opinions, but whose isn't? They demonstrate their understanding of the game by intelligently discussing it here, which gives their opinions credibility.

2) They are open to disagreeing opinions. It might not change their mind, but they don't attack the dissenter. Note that this is distinct from saying they are open to discussion and then attacking everyone who opposes them.

3) They make well-reasoned cases for their opinions. Even if I disagree that giving up your OE slot to guarantee an accuracy is worth it, Ginkapo has demonstrated that he can construct a scenario in which it works. We can have a reasoned discussion about why he is wrong because he doesn't make his claim on the basis of nebulous feelings.

4) They know when to stop pushing it. From time to time Blail brings up how much he hates squadrons, we talk about it for a while, and that's it. He doesn't try to dominate the boards with his discussion, he doesn't disregard counter-arguments or shift his position to make sure he's always right out resort to ad hom to make sure the argument keeps going.

What I'm not open to is trolling. I'm not talking about expressing an unpopular opinion; I'm talking about causing disruptions in the community for no benefit.

We get a lot of posts, especially in the rules sub forum, from newer forum members bringing up something that has already been discussed ad nauseam. Which is usually fine: someone will push back, catch then up with an illustration or link to the discussion, and that's the end of it.

Once in a while, though, we get these kinds of threads, where the OP starts off with a seemingly reasonable point, someone responds with a reasonable pushback, and the OP starts digging into his position with various forms of LA LA LA CAN'T HEAR YOU. He gets angry that he wasn't the first person to think of this, and keeps pushing it over and over, essentially trying to shout over everyone else's input. This is not even always intentional trolling, but sometimes it's someone whose experience has only shown then that they are right and can't understand why nobody agrees with them.

These are the kinds of threads that should result in a lock, and a warning if it's a pattern of behavior. Unfortunately, without active moderation, people try to take it into their own hands (and I'm as guilty of this as anyone else), telling the offender to stop, which 50/50 just excites them more.

I don't know what the answer is. There have been multiple "don't feed the trolls" threads, but it still happens. You can speak firmly to the offender, but that often just makes them more combative. We would benefit greatly from more active moderation from FFG, but I suspect that's not in the budget.

My opinion is that we should have a community moderation team with the authority to lock threads, sticky/unsticky, warn, temporary ban, and promote/demote mods. None of us can make that happen, so in the interim, the only solution I can think of is don't feed the trolls.

A post of "Stop" is bumping a troll thread.

A post needlessly (since it isn't being listened to) countering the argument is bumping a troll thread.

We can't count on a thread lock every time it gets nasty, but we can bite the keyboard and not bump the stuff.

Even posting, "Stop bumping the thread" is a bumping a troll thread.

It just has to be ingrained in the communities heads that the only way to beat a true troll is to not post, anything, ever, and let the thread fall off the front page where it will slip into obscurity in the bowels of the forum archive where all troll threads belong.

My opinion alert;

I don't intend to offend you Biggs or any other people who have posted these 'PSA' threads here as I'm sure it's worth the best of intentions, however I think they actually tend to amplify the problem rather than help it by making it look like a bigger issue than it is. People who want to argue will argue regardless of the signs politely asking them not to.

Locking threads and shutting argumentative types down on the internet tends to just amplify their impotent rage and then we get stuck with sock puppets and silly behaviour.

The answer? I don't actually know. If people start a discussion about the same old tired things just reply and let it die down. Treat it less like a discussion and instead more like them opening up a suggestion box for you to drop your note inside then leave well alone. That's how I tend to view it.

Not that the echo chamber reddit sometimes turns into is entirely a good thing, but there is something to be said for community upvote/downvote features in combination with scoring filters on post/comment visibility. Like Slashdot for the olders ones here.

"Opinions cannot by their nature be wrong"

Yes, they can. There are mutually exclusive opinions on this forum that cannot both be true. What we can do is discuss those opinions with civility. That I agree with.

"Opinions cannot by their nature be wrong"

Yes, they can. There are mutually exclusive opinions on this forum that cannot both be true. What we can do is discuss those opinions with civility. That I agree with.

If you ask a red-green color blind man what color the grass is, is he wrong if he says grey?

"Opinions cannot by their nature be wrong"

Yes, they can. There are mutually exclusive opinions on this forum that cannot both be true. What we can do is discuss those opinions with civility. That I agree with.

I thought you were wrong about this and ended up ripping a hole in the fabric of the space-time-continuum...

"Opinions cannot by their nature be wrong"

Yes, they can. There are mutually exclusive opinions on this forum that cannot both be true. What we can do is discuss those opinions with civility. That I agree with.

Opinions that are proven by facts are in fact, facts. Opinions by definition cannot be proven without a doubt, since they are rooted in emotion and feelings.

I think a lot of the discussions in this forum are based on opinions, and someone comes along and tries to tell the poster that they are wrong. This causes the issues to spiral into argument. Respecting a person for having an opinion while stating your own is key to healthy discussion. Agree to disagree and move on.

"Opinions cannot by their nature be wrong"

Yes, they can. There are mutually exclusive opinions on this forum that cannot both be true. What we can do is discuss those opinions with civility. That I agree with.

Opinions that are proven by facts are in fact, facts. Opinions by definition cannot be proven without a doubt, since they are rooted in emotion and feelings.

I think a lot of the discussions in this forum are based on opinions, and someone comes along and tries to tell the poster that they are wrong. This causes the issues to spiral into argument. Respecting a person for having an opinion while stating your own is key to healthy discussion. Agree to disagree and move on.

So is his "opinion" wrong?

Oh no here i go again....

4) They know when to stop pushing it. From time to time Blail brings up how much he hates squadrons, we talk about it for a while, and that's it. He doesn't try to dominate the boards with his discussion, he doesn't disregard counter-arguments or shift his position to make sure he's always right out resort to ad hom to make sure the argument keeps going.

So much love. <3

Lool. I'm not sure I know when to stop. I'll NEVER stoppppp. The protest goes on.

And here's the thing Blail, while many of us don't agree with your point of view about ships and squadrons, I do think that we understand it. You just have to always be ready with our counterpoints to your arguments. I think as long as the tone is civil, anyone should be able to bring concerns/ideas/whatever to the table.

I totally agree with the tone that Biggs tries to set in this post. I'm hardcore into Armada and the community is a big reason why. I never knew that this stuff existed before it. I mean, there are thousands of nerds like me wanting to push around plastic Star Wars toys!?!

Hoesntly I wish there were more nerds who did. Its still amazing to me everytime someone sees Armada models and just goes "meh". Or, "I don't have time". Or, "I don't wanna learn a game".

Keep in mind that many of us are coming from X-Wing (I know, its a different game, but its by the same developer so its going to have similar problems) and are VERY concerned with the power creep that that game is flooded with. We may criticize more than compliment but that's only because we don't want the amazing imbalance that is X-Wing to transfer over here. I do get it though, the odds of the developers actually paying attention are about a million to one, but there aren't many other avenues available.

Keep in mind that many of us are coming from X-Wing (I know, its a different game, but its by the same developer so its going to have similar problems) and are VERY concerned with the power creep that that game is flooded with. We may criticize more than compliment but that's only because we don't want the amazing imbalance that is X-Wing to transfer over here. I do get it though, the odds of the developers actually paying attention are about a million to one, but there aren't many other avenues available.

Aren't they 2 different teams? So it's possible power creep could happen, but it hasn't yet thankfully. I'd consider Armada the most balanced game I've played besides Star Craft BW.

This board is so not as awful as I've seen in the past (on other forums). Generally it's one of the more civil and helpful communities I've seen (and that's not just here - the amount of extra community content is amazing compared to how much actual game content we have).

The biggest disagreements I've seen (that have gotten messy in the last few days) always seem to be ones where someone is trying to focus on one specific element... but other people disagree with his/her premises as much as, if not more than, their "main point". Like flotillas and "theme is important", or squadrons and "I should be able to play [effectively] without them". Civil disagreement with your premise isn't ignoring your point or argument - it's disagreeing with a different (and potentially much more fundamental) part of it.

3) They make well-reasoned cases for their opinions. Even if I disagree that giving up your OE slot to guarantee an accuracy is worth it, Ginkapo has demonstrated that he can construct a scenario in which it works. We can have a reasoned discussion about why he is wrong because he doesn't make his claim on the basis of nebulous feelings.

Bloody love Nebs.

Edit: The difference here is that we have an understanding from talking to each other plenty to know what each others perspective is and judge accordingly.

Its soooo useful to get to know people on here so that you CAN understand intent.