Yeah, I would have to say that a unique ban would just make for stale competition. Tie swarms and BBBBZ would be the only ships, probably. Maybe some bombers and torps.

In our area, we've had themed tourneys that are a lot of fun, tied to a movie or battle. Death Star 1, Death Star 2, Rogue One era ships, etc...It doesn't always nix the power cards (and in one case I think TLTs were limited to one per squadron) but it does create a narrow card pool and gives people a chance to play something different.

Don't ban. Instead choose a theme for your tournament and make something mandatory. And change the point total so no-one knows what other people will bring and there isn't a pre-determined 'best' list.

Eg there is a tournament happening soon which I'd like to play in with the theme being Pilot Training. 60pts, each player has to include either a TIE fighter or an X-Wing.

The big difference between this and a 'ban' style is psychological. Choose a theme where what you want to see appeals to people and they will want to take part in it; have a banned list and people will niggle and argue and not bother playing.

11 hours ago, Gilarius said:

Don't ban. Instead choose a theme for your tournament and make something mandatory. And change the point total so no-one knows what other people will bring and there isn't a pre-determined 'best' list.

Eg there is a tournament happening soon which I'd like to play in with the theme being Pilot Training. 60pts, each player has to include either a TIE fighter or an X-Wing.

The big difference between this and a 'ban' style is psychological. Choose a theme where what you want to see appeals to people and they will want to take part in it; have a banned list and people will niggle and argue and not bother playing.

I like the idea of changing the points and creating manditory includes! I agree that banning stuff isn't the best route. I still feel like this solution still won't allow for the dustier cards to see play, however.

What I might do is go to a random squad generator, tell it to create a 200 point squad, and then ban every pilot it comes up with. Do this once for each faction.

You might also come up with a "suggested" list. Choose pilots that never see play (Fel's Wrath!). For every pilot from the suggested list that someone brings, they can also bring one pilot from the ban list.

I am against banning "equipment" as a general rule. Red Squadron Veteran + R2 + PTL + IA could be an interesting combo, and getting rid of PTL would not allow it.

Similarly, if someone wants to try and make Kagi + Palpatine work, more power to them!

I was thinking of running an anti-meta tournament...

Only 3 things are banned, 1 from each faction.

Palp, Zuckuss, Biggs.

22 minutes ago, migs6000 said:

I was thinking of running an anti-meta tournament...

Only 3 things are banned, 1 from each faction.

Palp, Zuckuss, Biggs.

Are people still really convinced that Zuckuss is the problem card in the scum faction? Outside of Dengaroo, he is rarely a major issue. Partybus hits like a truck but moves like one too and I don't find it to be a game altering experience facing one. Think Manaroo would be the card to target if you were to do something like this.

Yes as I have faced Dengaroo a few times, I melted Manaroo and then dealing with Dengaroo/Zuckuss was still brutal.

34 minutes ago, Kdubb said:

Are people still really convinced that Zuckuss is the problem card in the scum faction? Outside of Dengaroo, he is rarely a major issue. Partybus hits like a truck but moves like one too and I don't find it to be a game altering experience facing one. Think Manaroo would be the card to target if you were to do something like this.

I think he's problematic on Bossk as well. When you can put him on any ship that just doesn't care about how much stress he takes (because there's no inherent penalty as the ship doesn't care and can still mid dice). I think signals that's an issue. I also think he's the kind of card that limits design space for future scum, too.

30 minutes ago, Kdubb said:

Are people still really convinced that Zuckuss is the problem card in the scum faction? Outside of Dengaroo, he is rarely a major issue. Partybus hits like a truck but moves like one too and I don't find it to be a game altering experience facing one. Think Manaroo would be the card to target if you were to do something like this.

Yes, people still think the 1-point, multi-use, no-discard pseudo Crack Shot is a problem. Weird, huh?

2 minutes ago, DR4CO said:

Yes, people still think the 1-point, multi-use, no-discard pseudo Crack Shot is a problem. Weird, huh?

My point is he only becomes a multi use, more powerful Crack Shot with a negligent drawback in Dengaroo. I do think he is difficult to deal with on Bossk as well, and clearly is a top tier play there where Zuckuss is likely providing more value than he reasonably should, but due to the limitations of the YV-666, and again, the fact that the stress there (even if less so there than on most platforms) DOES matter, it is manageable in most match ups.

In the case of Bossk I feel like Zuckuss is gaining value by being placed in the best spot available, as opposed to why he works in Dengaroo builds- paring up with Manaroo and OC astro to ignore the penalty of his use entirely, a combo which I do not believe designers intended or perhaps failed to see the power behind. Manaroo is much more warping in my opinion, and scum is leaning more and more on her. In a lot of cases, I don't think she provides as many NPEs as Zuckuss due to Zuckuss being the "reroll into *blank blank blank* " trigger, but if you want more diverse listbuilding, Manaroo is the scum building block right now much moreso than Zuckuss.

On that note though, If I were to be forced into banning 2 cards per faction though, yes, zuckuss would be the 2nd choice. Imps 2nd would be x7, and Rebels would probably keep Biggs and ditch R2D2 and R5-P9.

2 hours ago, Kdubb said:

On that note though, If I were to be forced into banning 2 cards per faction though, yes, zuckuss would be the 2nd choice. Imps 2nd would be x7, and Rebels would probably keep Biggs and ditch R2D2 and R5-P9.

Get rid of Biggs and Rebel Regen, and you're going to see an awful lot of Choontir Fel.

Chewbacca (42)
Push the Limit (3)
Kyle Katarn (3)
Kanan Jarrus (3)
Engine Upgrade (4)
Millennium Falcon (1)

Total: 56

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

The problem is that Rebel Small ships can neither evade nor can they dodge damage the way imperial or scum snall ships can. So they Regen their way out of it. Or use Biggs to avoid damaging their main threats.

What our scene is coming up with is a 90pt/10pt split. So you have to build a list with only 90pt of ships and 10 points of upgrades. What we've also done is made EVERY upgrade unique, kills spamming titles, and hey, if you want to bring something like the Palpatine, then the rest of your list will suffer. Yes this kills list like bro-bots and stops someone from bring the punishing one title, but that's kinda the point.

We are also planning an even where no EPT are allowed.

1 hour ago, Nutter1557 said:

What our scene is coming up with is a 90pt/10pt split. So you have to build a list with only 90pt of ships and 10 points of upgrades. What we've also done is made EVERY upgrade unique, kills spamming titles, and hey, if you want to bring something like the Palpatine, then the rest of your list will suffer. Yes this kills list like bro-bots and stops someone from bring the punishing one title, but that's kinda the point.

We are also planning an even where no EPT are allowed.

There's something appealing about this kind of an idea, but as mentioned above, isn't one of the most powerful lists in the meta right now just 8 points of upgrades? Also, how do you play ships that are designed to have upgrades to simply work? IE Bombers, Ks, Ys, Scyks...

Ban all unique pilots except one per player. Call it 'Wing Commander' rules. Hopefully they get more creative than just Howlrunner crack swarms.

Yeah! Ban everything, ban whole game! Go back to TIE Fighter vs X-Wing dogfight using only the cards and models from base set! (sarcasm off)

Jesus, some people...

Banning one thing, just opens the doors to new cheese (i.e. the deadeye nerf brought back quad TLTs). Let the game do its job, and just have like an 85pt game. Those "meta" lists are now hurt without all upgrades. Generics get a bit more value play. How tough is Dengaroo if Manaroo cant afford Engines, or Dengar doesnt have Glitter and Countermeasures in the opening salvo? Are people really gonna bring a 50pt bossk and only have 35pts for a second ship? An 85pt game will create new power lists. Think of it like a different weight class in boxing.

1 minute ago, wurms said:

Banning one thing, just opens the doors to new cheese (i.e. the deadeye nerf brought back quad TLTs). Let the game do its job, and just have like an 85pt game. Those "meta" lists are now hurt without all upgrades. Generics get a bit more value play. How tough is Dengaroo if Manaroo cant afford Engines, or Dengar doesnt have Glitter and Countermeasures in the opening salvo? Are people really gonna bring a 50pt bossk and only have 35pts for a second ship? An 85pt game will create new power lists. Think of it like a different weight class in boxing.

For 85 points you can run an awful lot of power meta lists in slightly different formats. Dengaroo doesn't suffer all that much, the core parts of Dengaroo are only 79 points (Dengar/Title/Zuckuss, Manaroo/PTL/Unhinged) so it has a LOT of upgrade room to play with.

85 points also gets you a solid palp/aces list using any of half a dozen or so pocket aces, and a 50 point Bossk plus a 35 point Fenn would be a perfectly fine list in 85 points.

I think if the ban list were limited to 6 cards, as stated earlier, we would see some fun / original lists. The cards:

Palp

x7

R2D2

R5P9

Zuckuss

Manaroo

Changing the points of a tournament would work a little bit, but we would see a bunch of the same ships and setups, just in different order.

16 hours ago, schmi said:

I think if the ban list were limited to 6 cards, as stated earlier, we would see some fun / original lists. The cards:

Palp

x7

R2D2

R5P9

Zuckuss

Manaroo

Changing the points of a tournament would work a little bit, but we would see a bunch of the same ships and setups, just in different order.

Add TLT to that list, and maybe Miranda (since she also regens)

On 1/25/2017 at 0:44 AM, Kdubb said:

My point is he only becomes a multi use, more powerful Crack Shot with a negligent drawback in Dengaroo. I do think he is difficult to deal with on Bossk as well, and clearly is a top tier play there where Zuckuss is likely providing more value than he reasonably should, but due to the limitations of the YV-666, and again, the fact that the stress there (even if less so there than on most platforms) DOES matter, it is manageable in most match ups.

In the case of Bossk I feel like Zuckuss is gaining value by being placed in the best spot available, as opposed to why he works in Dengaroo builds- paring up with Manaroo and OC astro to ignore the penalty of his use entirely, a combo which I do not believe designers intended or perhaps failed to see the power behind. Manaroo is much more warping in my opinion, and scum is leaning more and more on her. In a lot of cases, I don't think she provides as many NPEs as Zuckuss due to Zuckuss being the "reroll into *blank blank blank* " trigger, but if you want more diverse listbuilding, Manaroo is the scum building block right now much moreso than Zuckuss.

Zuckuss significantly devalues green dice, which has a big impact on the viability of a lot of ships. If he's playable on any competitive ship then his suppressive effect on list diversity outweighs any effect he might have in-game.

To me he's a reminder of the Stasis ban in Magic. Stasis was a card that was mostly ****, like playing it hurt you more than it hurt the opponent because the timing of when the Stasis would end meant your opponent got to untap and take a full turn before you did. The only time Stasis ever got played was when players constructed playable combinations of effects that meant they could make the Stasis lopsided and lock the opponent down. In Goldilocks terms Stasis was only ever 'too cold' (so bad you can't use it outside of a deck not 100% dedicated to its use) or 'too hot' (a near-guaranteed win in a deck dedicated to it's use) and pretty much never 'just right'.

It was banned not for being too powerful at any given point in particular, but because, with 20/20 hindsight, it was just badly designed.

Zuckuss falls into a similar category, I feel. With the added problem that the 'cost' of adding stress tokens rapidly stops being a cost beyond the 3rd/4th stress to be applied.

You know, sometimes it's not really that one card is overpowered. It's usually one (or a few) cards combined with specific other cards that really break the game. So...Manaroo or Dengar aren't really that broken, but when you combine them together with a few other cards, then it does get that way. So...maybe it's more that you can't use specific cards in the same list? That would let you take all the ships, but just not the super combos. Well...maybe a few could be banned. Palpatine and /x7 come to mind. Other than that, it might just be a matter of restricting combos.

8 hours ago, heychadwick said:

You know, sometimes it's not really that one card is overpowered. It's usually one (or a few) cards combined with specific other cards that really break the game. So...Manaroo or Dengar aren't really that broken, but when you combine them together with a few other cards, then it does get that way. So...maybe it's more that you can't use specific cards in the same list? That would let you take all the ships, but just not the super combos. Well...maybe a few could be banned. Palpatine and /x7 come to mind. Other than that, it might just be a matter of restricting combos.

I completely agree. That's why Manaroo is banned in my current iteration. She is not banned, but you will only pair her with silly combos that make her ban-worthy. I would like the alternative of doing combo bans but I feel that list would be too large to be practical.

Stop listing the cards you don't want to see! Instead list what you do want to see.

Then see what rules/themes/ideas you and the rest of us can come up with to help make your vision not just a reality, but also fun to play.
Banning without some sort of enticement means focusing on purely negative things, which means your tournament would be seen as a negative event.

15 minutes ago, Gilarius said:

Stop listing the cards you don't want to see! Instead list what you do want to see.

Then see what rules/themes/ideas you and the rest of us can come up with to help make your vision not just a reality, but also fun to play.
Banning without some sort of enticement means focusing on purely negative things, which means your tournament would be seen as a negative event.

I wanna see anything I haven't seen 100 times! I also want to see a list that isn't just a stew of broken cards/combos.