Player asked me: Why specialize [W] over Train [Y]??? Why not just only train instead?
jh
Why specialize [W] over Train [Y]???
You have limiters to training:
- you can only train a skill once per rank
- The costs to train skills outside of your career is rightly prohibitive
Thus it is likely to get to a point where your core skills are trained to the max for your current rank but you have open advancements to spend on skills/specialisations. And while fortune isn't as powerful as expertise, it can nudge you into success or fuel greater abilities with boons.
Someone who is combat focused and already has trained WS, can take specialisations with certain weapon types, which does add some decent value for fighting for example.
If you've trained a skill you can't train again until the next rank. Specializing gives you an additional [W] which makes you that much better. The fact is, you can't specialize until you've trained anyway. Yes, if you've attained a new rank and can train the skill a second (or third) time, then that is better than specializing. However, between ranks (or once you've maxed out the 3 trainings) then you can also specialize, which complements the training.
dvang said:
The fact is, you can't specialize until you've trained anyway.
Is this definitely the case? If so, I've done that bit wrong and allowed specialization before training 
Dramatic Exit said:
dvang said:
The fact is, you can't specialize until you've trained anyway.
Is this definitely the case? If so, I've done that bit wrong and allowed specialization before training
ragnar63 said:
Dramatic Exit said:
dvang said:
The fact is, you can't specialize until you've trained anyway.
Is this definitely the case? If so, I've done that bit wrong and allowed specialization before training
yes, you must be trained before you can specialise
Yep just found it as the last sentence in 'Skill Training' on character creation. This feels slightly wrong.. I don't see why a character couldn't have a deeper understanding of some aspect of a skill without being an expert (i.e. be Trained) in the entire skill.
As a bad example.. a Wizard who climbed a lot as as a wee-lad and is pretty **** good at it. Specialization in Athletics:Climbing but not Trained in Athletics overall.
Oh well.
Dramatic Exit said:
ragnar63 said:
Dramatic Exit said:
dvang said:
The fact is, you can't specialize until you've trained anyway.
Is this definitely the case? If so, I've done that bit wrong and allowed specialization before training
yes, you must be trained before you can specialise
Yep just found it as the last sentence in 'Skill Training' on character creation. This feels slightly wrong.. I don't see why a character couldn't have a deeper understanding of some aspect of a skill without being an expert (i.e. be Trained) in the entire skill.
As a bad example.. a Wizard who climbed a lot as as a wee-lad and is pretty **** good at it. Specialization in Athletics:Climbing but not Trained in Athletics overall.
Oh well.
ragnar63 said:
Athletics assumes a certain level of physical fitness to count as being trained in it. Without that being able to climb or swim would be nigh on impossible. Likewise a warrior may prefer Great Weapons, but he would be far less useful with them, if he did not know how to fight in a melee, which Weapon Skill gives you.
Well, yes.. they're basic skills and freely available to everyone without Training. The Wizard in the example above already has Athletics, because it's a basic skill and so can, at the least, attempt actions based on it. What I'm saying is by RAW he has to become an expert in all forms of Athletics before he can have a knack for climbing trees.
Dramatic Exit said:
ragnar63 said:
Athletics assumes a certain level of physical fitness to count as being trained in it. Without that being able to climb or swim would be nigh on impossible. Likewise a warrior may prefer Great Weapons, but he would be far less useful with them, if he did not know how to fight in a melee, which Weapon Skill gives you.
Well, yes.. they're basic skills and freely available to everyone without Training. The Wizard in the example above already has Athletics, because it's a basic skill and so can, at the least, attempt actions based on it. What I'm saying is by RAW he has to become an expert in all forms of Athletics before he can have a knack for climbing trees.
It sounds reasonable, and as a GM I would allow characters to start (not gain) specializations that have some narrative/background element to the reason.
Don't you also get a free specialization from completing a career?
If so, then the answer is, "because it's free."
This is pretty much the same as other RPGs... IIRC, the old West End Games Star Wars RPG required that you had a skill trained before specializing in something based on it.
Basic Skills are things that anyone can attempt. If you're trained in it, you're better at it than Random Peasant A.
Random Peasant A who doesn't have Atheltics trained can still try to run or climb. He sucks at it, but he can try it.
Bright Wizard Trogdor McFlameson, who has one box into training Athletics, can run and climb pretty well. Better than Random Peasant A.
Wardancer Selwyn Treedancer, who only has a single box in Athletics, but a specialization in Climbing, can run pretty well, just like Trogdor, but she can climb even better.
Personally, I don't think the system is unintuitive at all.
Expertise dice are better than Fortune dice and training is more broadly applicable, so training is better than specialization. Specialization just adds extra benefit in a narrower focus of the skill. As others have said, you may not be able to train a skill due to rank restrictions or being maxed out, but need to fill the Skill Training or Specialization line on the advance worksheet portion of the character sheet to be able to complete a career. In those cases, Specialization may be your only option. Secondly, depending on how you are developing your character, it may make more sense for the character concept to specialize in a skill you are already trained in rather than train another skill. A character that starts as a Scout and then becomes a Hunter may decide that he is better off specializing in Nature Lore than training Athletics. A Student that becomes a Scribe may decide it fits his concept more to take a specialization in Folklore rather than train Intuition. From a strictly mechanics perspective only, training a new skill wins, but from a character concept perspective, it may be more of a specialist vs. generalist situation.