1 hour ago, Undeadguy said:

Why would you use Warlord on a blue? And Sensor Team is not redundant when it gives you 2 damage and 1 Acc everytime on the fickle red dice. SW7 means you always have 3 damage on blues. So I don't know what you are getting at or what you don't like about the build.

Veteran Gunners is not good on a ship with heavy die manipulation like a QTC Warlord. You have to reroll ALL your dice. So if you get a red Acc on the first roll, you get to add another. Reroll. If you don't get an Acc on that, Warlord is no good since you have SW7. Or you Warlord before VG, which is pointless since you will drop your damage. A better choice is LS, since you will have 4 reds with a CF, and 2 blues after the reroll, and you get to choose what you want to roll.

A Vic II, with Screed, CF dial+token, Warlord, QTC, GT, and LS can average 8.74 damage and .98 Acc, assuming you reroll blue Acc, Warlord the QTC Acc to a double, and you get a blank to Screed with. And with GT, you can do this twice.

Indeed it does, but adds one to your pool before you reroll, and you can spend accuracies you want to keep before you reroll as well. Generally the reason I run Spinal though instead, though.

Guaranteeing 2 damage across 2 dice hardly justifies the sensor team. It just isn't enough of a return. You already had ~.75 / die without factoring in the warlord boosting that as well on one of them. The redundancy is still much higher across SW-7 and warlord than anything, better spent on bigger returns (not even considering that is a really expensive Victory).

Yeah, I'm less concerned with the Admiral and more just fiddling with VSD builds. Konstantine may be benched for Jerrjerrod here soon honestly. I love the movement shenanigans, but I also love maneuverability

The intel drop with blue dice makes sense. Also saves a whole bunch of points. May just dip down to DTTs or H9s on a VSDII and call it a day.

VSD-I

Tactical Experts

Slaved Turrets

Vader Commander

Fight me.

If you want a reliable Gunship, consider an Interdictor Suppression Refit and kit it out as below.

Interdictor-class Suppression Refit (90 points)
- Damage Control Officer ( 5 points)
- SW 7 Ion Batteries ( 5 points)
- Targeting Scrambler ( 5 points)
= 105 total ship cost

Admirals are Motti or Tarkin. Other options include a Nav Team (Tarkin) Projection Experts (Tarkin)

This ship has solid shooting all around (not spike damage) and can inflict a guaranteed 6 damage per turn double arcing up to a maximum of 10 with doubles on the red dice.

It's also a beast to kill with either Tarkin or Motti as the Admiral.

It pairs well with Advanced Gunnery or Close Range Intel Scan.

This, rather than the VSD, speaks Gunship to me.

Just now, ianediger said:

VSD-I

Tactical Experts

Slaved Turrets

Vader Commander

Fight me.

ok

On 2/14/2017 at 11:57 AM, Snipafist said:

This has also been my experience - Konstantine's ability is fairly niche and can be difficult to trigger with the slower Imperial medium sized ships - conversely you can use the faster ISDs, but then your number of "trigger points" in a list goes down, which is its own separate problem. Even when it does go off, it only sometimes makes a difference (other front arc ships/Imperials overall generally don't care about their speed changing) and navigate tokens/commands can help counteract it. Sometimes it can be pretty effective, don't get me wrong, but "sometimes this commander is basically useless" is not a great foundation to build on. I was excited to try a speed control fleet when he arrived (as were many others) but after several games I left very underwhelmed. Oh well.

But anyways, I assumed Alzer was committed to Konstantine regardless of my personal feelings on the matter and we were just discussing VSD builds overall.

Konstantine could really use errata. He's a very interesting and useful design and would have opened up huge space in Imperial play if you could also push enemy ships temporarily or even permanently to 0. Got a slow moving enemy fleet that likes to camp? Make them suffer.

Heck, true change to 0 might be too overpowered, but even just temporarily to 0 would be interesting.

And its counter play isn't hard, just keep navigation tokens.

53 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Konstantine could really use errata. He's a very interesting and useful design and would have opened up huge space in Imperial play if you could also push enemy ships temporarily or even permanently to 0. Got a slow moving enemy fleet that likes to camp? Make them suffer.

Heck, true change to 0 might be too overpowered, but even just temporarily to 0 would be interesting.

And its counter play isn't hard, just keep navigation tokens.

I imagine the concern around him was pairing him with a few ships sporting Phylon Q7s and an Interdictor with a G-8...I think FFG wanted to give him an effect that wouldn't completely replace either of those, or otherwise stack OBNOXIOUSLY powerfully with them. Which they did do, but the result is...very 'meh'.

Part of the issue is that control over the speed of a ship just isn't massively powerful. Especially since he telegraphs that the turn prior to it mattering, so especially something like Rebel TRC90 swarms, or other smaller ships, can just go ahead and plot a command that counters your commander's effect. (So, yes, you are effectively denying them their command of choice for that turn, but.....? Eh?)

I dunno, it's really hard to tell what could be done with him. Playing around with the concept of the slowdown he can do has some possibilities (as you note - maybe remove the lower limit...or possibly just have it a fixed value; IE., set the dials of effected ships all to exactly '1') - but that misses out on the other direction he can push it. Making a ship go faster than it wants to should also be something that could be taken advantage of. It IS an interesting ability he has, being able to push speeds both directions, it just feels so...difficult to get any value out of. Maybe if he could adjust a dial by 2, instead of 1 (leaving the lower limit in place)?

It's quite possible that Konstantine could be more useful in future waves (kind of like how Ozzel and Vader's stocks have been improving lately). If the Imperials ever get an Assault-Frigate-style medium ship that likes side arc shots, being able to conga line while telling everything trying to catch you and get in the way that its speed is borked would be quite good.

The main problem is it's not a great combination with VSDs; which is not to say VSDs can't be used well, I'm just not convinced they're that effective with Konstantine.

2 minutes ago, Snipafist said:

It's quite possible that Konstantine could be more useful in future waves (kind of like how Ozzel and Vader's stocks have been improving lately). If the Imperials ever get an Assault-Frigate-style medium ship that likes side arc shots, being able to conga line while telling everything trying to catch you and get in the way that its speed is borked would be quite good.

The main problem is it's not a great combination with VSDs; which is not to say VSDs can't be used well, I'm just not convinced they're that effective with Konstantine.

The problem is (and why he likely came up in this thread), his ability requires at least two medium-base ship, and the VSD is the cheapest 'medium' base in the Imperial arsenal. IE., it's not enough for Konstantine to have a medium-base ship that likes side-arcs, it's also got to be cheap enough that running multiples makes sense.

If he could work with small-base ships, he'd be solid leading a fleet of Arrrrghkittens!, for sure - as you say, conga line around the map edge and good luck trying to catch them. Absolutely worth his points in that list, then. Or as you note, the Rebel AFmk2 would also potentially be a place for him - but FFG seems to be trying to leave the factions with somewhat distinct flavors and "poor on the sides, because all guns point forward" feels like where they want the Imperial ships to be...at least, those big enough for Konstantine to work with. So I don't really see the Empire getting something like the AFmk2.

Call me crazy, but I have a Vic build with hilarious damage potential.

Basically:

Vic-1

Expanded Launchers

Dominator

Ordnance Experts

Kit it out to taste. My strategy was to run an Interdictor with Projection Experts to help regenerate some shields, and my commander was Tarkin, to give extra tokens. I think I got 12 or 13 damage twice. And the blues from Dominator, along with the reds give you at least one accuracy to lock the brace. Beyond that, you can put XI7s if you want, but there's not really a point, in my opinion.

20 minutes ago, Darth Tam said:

Call me crazy, but I have a Vic build with hilarious damage potential.

Basically:

Vic-1

Expanded Launchers

Dominator

Ordnance Experts

Kit it out to taste. My strategy was to run an Interdictor with Projection Experts to help regenerate some shields, and my commander was Tarkin, to give extra tokens. I think I got 12 or 13 damage twice. And the blues from Dominator, along with the reds give you at least one accuracy to lock the brace. Beyond that, you can put XI7s if you want, but there's not really a point, in my opinion.

Yes, the damage potential is crazy high, the problem is delivering it to the target. No one in their right mind would drive their ship in the close range front arc of that monster.

Just now, pt106 said:

Yes, the damage potential is crazy high, the problem is delivering it to the target. No one in their right mind would drive their ship in the close range front arc of that monster.

That's where the Interdictor comes in handy. All the movement altering goodness can really mess your opponent up. So, you basically have a giant area denial, and you can absolutely ruin people in objective play. (Fire Lanes, once you get to the token, comes to mind). Also, Most Wanted as second player would be pretty interesting. You pick your Vic amd whatever ship is best on your opponent's fleet. So, you can hopefully force your opponent to engage the Vic. Alternatively, you can use JerJer to get maneuverability, but you sacrifice the command tokens from Tarkin.

So if your opponent doesn't realize what your fleet does and sails right into an obvious trap without taking precautions to escape or avoid it (by for example, flanking from the sides), it's a pretty good combination?

Don't get me wrong: I think VSDs have their place and can be used well, but the "super combo" VSD recommendations always seem to be relying on your opponent allowing them to happen, given the VSD is lacking in the "forcing you to deal with it on its terms" territory. I've found keeping upgrades light on a VSD and then spending the points that would've gone into a super-combo on a support ship (Raider, Gozanti) works much better: more activations, more flank coverage, more shields, more dice. More better.

If Konstantine let you change temporarily to 0. He would be better. His timing of activation is also poor.

Really he's still probably not good. But now he's loads better than what he was.

This is the other issue. His situation cost is too high. It's too hard to make good 2 VSD lists. 2IsD are not competitive. Sorry. They might work anecdotally for a few select experienced players but by and large in data if you even took 1 ISD you had a 60% chance of being in the bottom half. Let alone 2 ISD.

And sometimes people wanna play with large ships in multiple. Looks a lot more like a fleet. As opposed to one ISD fleets.

14 minutes ago, Snipafist said:

So if your opponent doesn't realize what your fleet does and sails right into an obvious trap without taking precautions to escape or avoid it (by for example, flanking from the sides), it's a pretty good combination?

Don't get me wrong: I think VSDs have their place and can be used well, but the "super combo" VSD recommendations always seem to be relying on your opponent allowing them to happen, given the VSD is lacking in the "forcing you to deal with it on its terms" territory. I've found keeping upgrades light on a VSD and then spending the points that would've gone into a super-combo on a support ship (Raider, Gozanti) works much better: more activations, more flank coverage, more shields, more dice. More better.

I never said it was going to be great odds-wise. But when it works it is hilarious.

2 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

If Konstantine let you change temporarily to 0. He would be better. His timing of activation is also poor.

Really he's still probably not good. But now he's loads better than what he was.

This is the other issue. His situation cost is too high. It's too hard to make good 2 VSD lists. 2IsD are not competitive. Sorry. They might work anecdotally for a few select experienced players but by and large in data if you even took 1 ISD you had a 60% chance of being in the bottom half. Let alone 2 ISD.

And sometimes people wanna play with large ships in multiple. Looks a lot more like a fleet. As opposed to one ISD fleets.

Again, though, I don't think the '0' would be enough - nor would it really do anything to work off his ability to push speeds the OTHER direction. The idea of forcing an enemy ship to move *faster* than it wants to...possibly forcing some ship to veer away or suffer friend-on-friend collision damage...that's something, too, but also something he doesn't do well enough.

IMHO, only two ways to get him worth his points:

• His ability works off of any base size non-flotilla ship, not just medium/large
  ...or...
• His ability allows speed adjustments of +/- 2 a turn, instead of only +/- 1 a turn

He is definitely one of the cheaper commanders, so I don't think he needs THAT much, but...on the other hand, he costs nearly exactly as much as Motti, but doesn't win tournaments even 1% as often, so...

58 minutes ago, xanderf said:

He is definitely one of the cheaper commanders, so I don't think he needs THAT much, but...on the other hand, he costs nearly exactly as much as Motti, but doesn't win tournaments even 1% as often, so...

Quick, someone find a way to win a Regionals with Konstantine!

VSD is like a jack of all trades with only one aspect in ship lacking. Mobility. It has good health, good firepower, good squadron value, decent set of upgrade slots, not too many points, but nothing really shines out. Still as a jack of all trades having one attribute below average really makes it not too much of a value aspect, but in a way that is sort of a blessing in disguise. You know what the VSD is lacking and you can easily compensate for it (with an Interdictor). With a Raider you know it has great speed and cheap point cost and good anti-squadron value, but it lacks on range and health. There are two things you have to compensate for and more liabilities means more trouble. ISDs got the guns, and the health, and faster speed. But you pay a premium on points which actually makes their squadron commands more expensive, further more 3 commands makes their squadron commands delayed unless you put more points that could go into other ships or squadrons. An ISD is no small commitment, not that a VSD is a cheap ship but you have more options with two VSDs than you would with 2 ISDs.

Neither VSD or Interdictor appears much in standard matches. The interdictor too has the same problem of being kinda boring, that speed change mechanic is just... really boring. And it seems from resukts, not particularly cost efective.

I came second at a store champ with Konstantine.

You need slicer tools. Everyone seems to miss that

Slicer tools you say?

I hear there's a three point upgrade that completely nullifies that expense...

5 hours ago, Ginkapo said:

I came second at a store champ with Konstantine.

You need slicer tools. Everyone seems to miss that

Konsy is kind of cool actually, but right now, at 400 pts and with what's available, I feel the fleet options are very limited.

I always end up with 1 Interdictor, 2 Vics (tractor beams), 1 Goz (slicers) and a squad screen. Sure, I can try to tweak it a bit, but at the end of the day your own fleet is about as good (and fun) as it gets.

I've seen Konstantine used once or twice and he seems to come into his own much later in the game - from Turn 4 onwards.

Once fleets close and have taken damage from the first pass, his ability - in conjunction with an interdictor's toys and tractor beams can see a triple effect on ships that's hard to counter.

31 minutes ago, Artifixprime said:

I've seen Konstantine used once or twice and he seems to come into his own much later in the game - from Turn 4 onwards.

Once fleets close and have taken damage from the first pass, his ability - in conjunction with an interdictor's toys and tractor beams can see a triple effect on ships that's hard to counter.

Well, I'm curious about using Konstantine instead of Jerejerrod in 2ISD build with defenders. May end up being interesting.

I think @Ginkapo made a good point about Slicer Tools as well - once you have a ship "trapped" you want to keep them away from the Nav command.