But ISDs, VSDs, and all the other iconic large Imperial ships are why I got into this game in the first place.

I think that ends the discussion right there.

Just the notion that Star Destroyers are not viable will scare off so many new players!

Do we need that?

Apply Cr90B with engine tech. Ram life boat......repeat as necessary.

Except the closest things Imps have to that is the Raider and it can't run engine techs.

It would be interesting to know how many people in this discussion play rebels vs who plays Imperials.....and what side those decisions come down on within the debate.

Regarding Flotillas... H9s can be a hard counter to their defensive stratgies. H9s aren't bad for ships that have them in always locking down other defense tokens as well. If I knew I'm going up against massed flotillas I'd be encouraged to take them, especially if there are no other Turbolasers I'd like more. It's just I have more cause for enemy fighters...

No, my problem with Flotillas is how they enable cheap activation passes. For 18 points the Rebels can continue to skip their "turn" until optimal strike time, where they unleash their best shot. It could be an MC80 opening up to an MC30 starting its run to Yavaris moving with Flight Coordination Teams and a flight commander then double-tapping their bombers. Rebel ships are cheaper as a whole, and they use smaller ships, making this easier when stacked against the Empire.

That has my concern, more than Admiral sedans, because it creates an uphill struggle for bigger ships that cannot activate properly when they want to. I'd like to see that addressed somehow.

That has been addressed. First, the flotillas have a cost. 18 points is a lot to pay for activation padding. When the customs community (before Wave 3 was announced) considered an admiral who existed purely as an activation pass, we priced him at 20 points, and some still felt that was too expensive. Second, they are balanced further by utter lack of armament and marginal survivability past Scatter. They represent no threat other than enabling other ships and squadrons. Third, as the Clonisher proved, activation padding is perfectly available without flotillas to make it easier. The arrival of the Arquitens and Pelta in Wave 5 further cement this, as each side has more and more cheap ship options. Can you get the ridiculous activation advantage of a flotilla spam? No. Do those fleets suffer the disadvantages here? Even more so. Fourth, all flotillas must always activate, so that is not necessarily an advantage in tightly flown fleets whose opponent ruins their maneuver plan.

Fifth and finally, while the Empire generally has more expensive combatants than its Rebel equivalents, that is not something unique to flotillas. That has always been true across the board since Wave 1. The Empire offsets this by the fact those smaller Rebel ships are far less durable than the Imperial warships, which are heavily armed and equipped for bruising closing battles the Rebels have trouble facing (plus squadron balance, plus fleet synergies etc etc). In short, it's part of game balance. I for one main Imperials and have absolutely no issue with that I spend more "per ship" because I get more ship in my ship for my investment in my estimation, and I can fly and fight in that playstyle. To be completely honest this sounds like you are someone whose tactical mindset prefers Rebel strategies. If I am wrong, Arquitens.

18 points is the cheapest activation in the game right now though... to delay three activations, the Rebels need only pay 54 points... the cost of about two fighter aces. If you have something like I dunno, a massive defensive rebel fighter ball, those activations also carry enhancements for the ball while you wait for your target to fall into the net. Or they can help advance the net in the case of going on the offensive.

It's the same strategy that allowed DeMSU to come out strong as it did in the beginning. Here I am with multiple activations, I'm gonna waste time until the target I want to hit is in range and then launch Demolisher at it. Well, now the Rebels can do it for cheaper.

I'm also not following why you don't think massive flotillas have activation spam... I face it every other Sunday when I go against one of the local players here. In order to have an activation of my choice, I need to find three or four things to activate first before my target in order to jump it. With Imperial ships being more expensive, I'm going to have to get used to getting double-tapped by a Yavaris bomber group after I move one of my ships in.

Also please don't tell me my armed flotillas have some kind of standout advantage over the Rebels' by being armed. I've never heard of a Rebel player taking an armed GR-75 over an unarmed transport. If I could toss the guns off my Gozantis to have a massive reduction in points, I'd do it in a heartbeat. None of my Gozanti guns have ever killed a ship- they've done more for AA fire than anything else... just like GR-75s. Everyone I know takes the cheapest Transports for fighter support and strength in the activation game.

On factions... if it were up to me, I'd love big battleship play to come back with overloaded VSDs and ISDs carrying the day, so I could be proper thematic Imperial. Thanks to Wexley ripping all my ISD shields off with massed fighters and unkillable blocking Flotillas under Rieekan, this is no longer possible. I'm too stubborn to jump ship, and I hold out hope Imperial Big ships can have a purpose in the future beyond their massive fighter ratings. But ISDs, VSDs, and all the other iconic large Imperial ships are why I got into this game in the first place.

First, I did not mean that huge flotilla-spam fleets did not have activation advantage. My point was that a Clonisher style MSU list gets easier to build for both sides with every wave. Those fleets can't achieve the same ridiculous activation advantage as a flotilla spam, but they get capable combatants for every activation.

I further did not mean that the Gozanti's armament is necessarily worth the cost upgrade over a GR-75. However, FFG playtested that this works out well, and I'm willing to trust them. I understand the cost envy, but we also get Imperial class Star Destroyers. And I am perfectly understanding of the reason you got into the Imperials, it's about half of why I got into them. Have you posted your typical list(s) and the sorts they face somewhere? I would be curious to see how they work together.

Imperial. I hate flotillas, but they're part of he game. I also hate house rules, so have to deal with them as is.

Sygnetix, you're in North Florida? In down in SW Florida. How's the scene up there?

Imperial. I hate flotillas, but they're part of he game. I also hate house rules, so have to deal with them as is.

Sygnetix, you're in North Florida? In down in SW Florida. How's the scene up there?

Made contact with and started playing with another person at a local FLGS. Trying to get Armada rolling has proven difficult. Still trying to hit a point where we have more than 1 game going at a time. Orlando seems fairly busy. There's a group on Facebook I joined that's always talking back and forth. There was also a thread in Organized Play about South Florida, dunno if it's close enough for you to take advantage of.

But ISDs, VSDs, and all the other iconic large Imperial ships are why I got into this game in the first place.

I think that ends the discussion right there.

Just the notion that Star Destroyers are not viable will scare off so many new players!

Do we need that?

It's not that these ships are no longer valid- you just use them in different ways. Rather than use them as turbolaser and missile mallets to slam out ships when you're in range, you use them as carriers... because at least in my universe, the most powerful list is one with maxxed fighters, a few supporting flotillas, Yavaris, and one CR-90/MC-30. If I don't fly with maximum fighter coverage, flying the way I wish I could, I can lose all my ISD's shields in one turn. In the next turn the ship is either dead or nearly there thanks to massed bombers and stacked BCCs guranteeing B-Wings two hits and a crit off the best bomber dice in the game.

The reason that's a thing is because Flotillas are 18 points, BCCs are 2, three of them are 60 points to stack bomber re-rolls, and fighters are notoriously hard to deal with on the Imperial side without fighters of your own.

Still VSDs and ISDs are the best ships with a high fighter rating and weapons team slot, making them valueble for that reason (in addition to being able to fight and tank damage better than small ships).

Regarding Flotillas... H9s can be a hard counter to their defensive stratgies. H9s aren't bad for ships that have them in always locking down other defense tokens as well. If I knew I'm going up against massed flotillas I'd be encouraged to take them, especially if there are no other Turbolasers I'd like more. It's just I have more cause for enemy fighters...

No, my problem with Flotillas is how they enable cheap activation passes. For 18 points the Rebels can continue to skip their "turn" until optimal strike time, where they unleash their best shot. It could be an MC80 opening up to an MC30 starting its run to Yavaris moving with Flight Coordination Teams and a flight commander then double-tapping their bombers. Rebel ships are cheaper as a whole, and they use smaller ships, making this easier when stacked against the Empire.

That has my concern, more than Admiral sedans, because it creates an uphill struggle for bigger ships that cannot activate properly when they want to. I'd like to see that addressed somehow.

That has been addressed. First, the flotillas have a cost. 18 points is a lot to pay for activation padding. When the customs community (before Wave 3 was announced) considered an admiral who existed purely as an activation pass, we priced him at 20 points, and some still felt that was too expensive. Second, they are balanced further by utter lack of armament and marginal survivability past Scatter. They represent no threat other than enabling other ships and squadrons. Third, as the Clonisher proved, activation padding is perfectly available without flotillas to make it easier. The arrival of the Arquitens and Pelta in Wave 5 further cement this, as each side has more and more cheap ship options. Can you get the ridiculous activation advantage of a flotilla spam? No. Do those fleets suffer the disadvantages here? Even more so. Fourth, all flotillas must always activate, so that is not necessarily an advantage in tightly flown fleets whose opponent ruins their maneuver plan.

Fifth and finally, while the Empire generally has more expensive combatants than its Rebel equivalents, that is not something unique to flotillas. That has always been true across the board since Wave 1. The Empire offsets this by the fact those smaller Rebel ships are far less durable than the Imperial warships, which are heavily armed and equipped for bruising closing battles the Rebels have trouble facing (plus squadron balance, plus fleet synergies etc etc). In short, it's part of game balance. I for one main Imperials and have absolutely no issue with that I spend more "per ship" because I get more ship in my ship for my investment in my estimation, and I can fly and fight in that playstyle. To be completely honest this sounds like you are someone whose tactical mindset prefers Rebel strategies. If I am wrong, Arquitens.

18 points is the cheapest activation in the game right now though... to delay three activations, the Rebels need only pay 54 points... the cost of about two fighter aces. If you have something like I dunno, a massive defensive rebel fighter ball, those activations also carry enhancements for the ball while you wait for your target to fall into the net. Or they can help advance the net in the case of going on the offensive.

It's the same strategy that allowed DeMSU to come out strong as it did in the beginning. Here I am with multiple activations, I'm gonna waste time until the target I want to hit is in range and then launch Demolisher at it. Well, now the Rebels can do it for cheaper.

I'm also not following why you don't think massive flotillas have activation spam... I face it every other Sunday when I go against one of the local players here. In order to have an activation of my choice, I need to find three or four things to activate first before my target in order to jump it. With Imperial ships being more expensive, I'm going to have to get used to getting double-tapped by a Yavaris bomber group after I move one of my ships in.

Also please don't tell me my armed flotillas have some kind of standout advantage over the Rebels' by being armed. I've never heard of a Rebel player taking an armed GR-75 over an unarmed transport. If I could toss the guns off my Gozantis to have a massive reduction in points, I'd do it in a heartbeat. None of my Gozanti guns have ever killed a ship- they've done more for AA fire than anything else... just like GR-75s. Everyone I know takes the cheapest Transports for fighter support and strength in the activation game.

On factions... if it were up to me, I'd love big battleship play to come back with overloaded VSDs and ISDs carrying the day, so I could be proper thematic Imperial. Thanks to Wexley ripping all my ISD shields off with massed fighters and unkillable blocking Flotillas under Rieekan, this is no longer possible. I'm too stubborn to jump ship, and I hold out hope Imperial Big ships can have a purpose in the future beyond their massive fighter ratings. But ISDs, VSDs, and all the other iconic large Imperial ships are why I got into this game in the first place.

First, I did not mean that huge flotilla-spam fleets did not have activation advantage. My point was that a Clonisher style MSU list gets easier to build for both sides with every wave. Those fleets can't achieve the same ridiculous activation advantage as a flotilla spam, but they get capable combatants for every activation.

I further did not mean that the Gozanti's armament is necessarily worth the cost upgrade over a GR-75. However, FFG playtested that this works out well, and I'm willing to trust them. I understand the cost envy, but we also get Imperial class Star Destroyers. And I am perfectly understanding of the reason you got into the Imperials, it's about half of why I got into them. Have you posted your typical list(s) and the sorts they face somewhere? I would be curious to see how they work together.

Yeah ISDs are great, but I'm...hmm... concerned? that rebel bomber combinations can make shields evaporate rapidly. It's scary every time I see it happen on the table but there it is...

I keep fluctuating between lists myself. My old favorite is two VSD-IIs with Gunnery Teams and Xi7s, an ISD with the same but also packing Leading shots or SW-7s with ECMs. Motti was the Admiral. Recently I've been trying two VSD-Is with a mix of fighters and two Gozantis with either Jamming fields (for the fighters) or Comms Nets (For the capital ships).

The opponent type I'm facing is usually Yavaris with Flight Commanders and Flight Coordination Teams (moves up into medium range of the fighters, moves those fighters, and then makes them attack twice), two to three GR-75 transports with boosted comms and BCCs (advantages at distance 5), Toryrn Farr is in there to allow a lot of X-Wings to control their dice and B-Wings to re-roll their blue again for accuracy. Sometimes Adar Tallon could be thrown in there to allow a fighter to activate for a third attack if Yavaris is in the picture. The rest are slush points, anything from a Pelta to a CR-90 to an MC-30 in the types I've built as mockup lists.

The last time I proxied this list, it had 3 X-Wings, 4 B-Wings, Jan Ors, Norra Wexley, and Shara Bey. I've also seen permutations with Wegde in there as well, waiting for the counter-attack with Yavaris to double-attack two activated squadrons. Since he's escort I can't try saving him for last except trying to intel away from him, like I've been doing with Shara.

This list cools it on their side of the board, going first or second depending on how much it wants to respond to the threats that challenge it. With that many activations though, it could comfortably sit at second in a Demo rush, since it would use a flotilla to block Demo's approach, then Yavaris pushes fighters closer to it for six attacks out of three fighters if a token is banked. With the stacked BCCs, you think Demolisher could last against 3 nearly certain damage that peels a shield off with each strike before tokens are spent?

The reason that's a thing is because Flotillas are 18 points, BCCs are 2, three of them are 60 points to stack bomber re-rolls, and fighters are notoriously Hard to deal with on the Imperial side without fighters of your own.

The last time I proxied this list, it had 3 X-Wings, 4 B-Wings, Jan Ors, Norra Wexley, and Shara Bey. I've also seen permutations with Wegde in there as well, waiting for the counter-attack with Yavaris to double-attack two activated squadrons. Since he's escort I can't try saving him for last except trying to intel away from him, like I've been doing with Shara.

Honestly, more than dealing with the "lifeboat" issue with Flotillas, I'd like to see the whole "activation advantage" thing addressed in some way that doesn't encourage plopping down tiny, nearly useless, ships. An upgrade - crew or commander or something - that can be used as a "dummy" activation just to stagger our your major activations ​without​ having to include little tiny ships floating around in the background.

Your closing statement is also a huge consideration as well. As one of the previous recomendations would suggest, changing the way flotillas are viewed within the game mechanics would address this, such as moving them to their own "inbetween phase" after ship phase but before squadron phase.....logically viable since they are not ships in the sense otehr ships are, but nor are they squadrons. Another suggestion was that flagships have a minimum points value. In this sense, lifeboat flotillas could still be utilized but you'd have to add upgrades to the flotilla to bring it's points value up to "command ship level". In order to gain use of that flotilla throughout the battle, it would still have to be in range for it's upgrades. Sure, lifeboat flotillas would still exist but it might force a shift not only in building an activation advantage but their use as a corner dwelling no-nothing all game long.

To be fair, I don't think the Activation Advantage aspect of flotillas needs to be fixed, so much as we could really use more tools to play with that aspect of the game.

I see "Activation Advantage", "Deployment Advantage", and even Initiative all as potential design space.

I always like to compare to other games, and the "activation advantage" aspect of flotillas feels exactly like the cheap filler units used for the same "activation advantage" in Star Wars Miniatures. Some of the most interesting effects and abilities in that game played around with these same concepts, changing how many units you could "activate" per turn, changing how and where units could deploy, and changing how Initiative would work.

I would really like to see some of that in this game (only, y'know, better, since Armada is a much more tightly put together game [in my opinion]).

Someone like Thrawn would be a great place to introduce something like this. Maybe something like...

You may exhaust this card instead of activating a ship on your turn.

You may discard a command token and exhaust this card to activate an additional ship on your turn.

Someone like Thrawn would be a great place to introduce something like this. Maybe something like...

You may exhaust this card instead of activating a ship on your turn.

You may discard a command token and exhaust this card to activate an additional ship on your turn.

Maybe we'll get an upgrade for a large ship or a basic rule change that let's the player pass till they have the same number of un-activated ships as their opponent. Sort of what Imperial Assault did to skirmishes.

Good lord folks, are we unable to reply without quoting a wall of text a mile long?

Just put "@thatguy" and reply.

I'm not yet convinced that flotillas are a must. Is that the conventional wisdom?

Good lord folks, are we unable to reply without quoting a wall of text a mile long?

Just put "@thatguy" and reply.

I'm not yet convinced that flotillas are a must. Is that the conventional wisdom?

For any rebel squadron focused list they usually are. For the price point, you can fit one in just about any list.

Imperial. I hate flotillas, but they're part of he game. I also hate house rules, so have to deal with them as is.

Sygnetix, you're in North Florida? In down in SW Florida. How's the scene up there?

Made contact with and started playing with another person at a local FLGS. Trying to get Armada rolling has proven difficult. Still trying to hit a point where we have more than 1 game going at a time. Orlando seems fairly busy. There's a group on Facebook I joined that's always talking back and forth. There was also a thread in Organized Play about South Florida, dunno if it's close enough for you to take advantage of.

Nope, it's Miami. Only two of us really den here, me and Destraa. Gonna have to drive an hour to really play.

Imperial. I hate flotillas, but they're part of he game. I also hate house rules, so have to deal with them as is.

Sygnetix, you're in North Florida? In down in SW Florida. How's the scene up there?

Made contact with and started playing with another person at a local FLGS. Trying to get Armada rolling has proven difficult. Still trying to hit a point where we have more than 1 game going at a time. Orlando seems fairly busy. There's a group on Facebook I joined that's always talking back and forth. There was also a thread in Organized Play about South Florida, dunno if it's close enough for you to take advantage of.

Nope, it's Miami. Only two of us really den here, me and Destraa. Gonna have to drive an hour to really play.

Beats my prospective 2 hr drive to Orlando or Saint Pete xD

I gave this some thought and I realized that these lifeboats work partly because opponent lets them.

If you think about it, a fleet is engineered around the admiral. If the admiral falls off the table, the battle plan usually collapses. Therefor if the opponent would dispatch a token task force against the lifeboat, the admiral would have no other choice than o stick with his/her fleet and become a target there.

For example a Kitten or an MC30 could run down a lifeboat, destroy it quickly and return to the battle for some more punches. Risky? Of course, because that ship may end well out of the battle. But it totally worth it. With Relay even a smaller bomber force could do that and they could return to the main battle much faster (although this is more viable for the Imps as the Lambdas are Relay 2 and their bombers are much faster).

What birthed this post was the math behind dispatching a portion of your forces to go hunt an 18 point ship someone tossed their admiral on. It's the risk vs reward that causes imbalance here. It's a low risk vs high reward for the lifeboat user. It's low risk because it takes more points in ships to go and kill their 18 point lifeboat. Sure you can argue specific builds that do it efficiently but this rocky foundation for a counter argument assumes that everyone includes a flotilla lifeboat killing solution in their fleet.

What a lot of people are failing to understand is that when you look at purely the cost of the ships involved in a "kill the flotilla lifeboat" scenario, it's drastically skewed in favor of the lifeboat. That's imbalance.

When you include the cost of the commander, it balances out....on the surface. When you include the upgrades on the forces you've now dispatched to kill said lifeboat, it swings back into imbalance.

You also have to factor in the risk vs reward of dispatching to chase the flotilla. Points value aside, you're dispatching approximately 1/8 of your fleet, at a minimum (if everything totals exactly 50/400 points). If it takes 2 turns to close into firing range (more than likely 3 but I'll be generous), you're risking being able to double arc. If you can't, it's going to take atleast 2 turns to kill the flotilla. This means that if the main engagement has surpassed a certain distance threshold from the corner the flotilla ran to, you cannot return to the fight in time to roll dice in turn 6.

Sure, the commander was lost for the last 2 or 3 turns. The assets dispatched to kill it are lost for atleast 5 turns, more than likely the entire game.

That's imbalance.

You keep calling it an 18 point ship to help support your argument. A ships point value includes all upgrades on it, including the commander. The argument against what you are saying that people have made is that you can send approximately 50 points worth of ships to kill the approximately 50 point "lifeboat" with little risks to the ship sent to do the job. Your counterargument seems to be, well it's really only an 18 point ship because I get to arbitrarily decide to distribute the cost of the commander in a manner other than how it actually works in the game. You don't seem to be attempting to have a debate/discussion, you seem to be politicking to get people to get people to agree with you even if they've made legitimate arguments against what you are saying.

I'm not pushing for a massive change to the rules structure either, I'm just pointing out how easy it is to mess up the timing of lists that need bigger ships and fewer activations. Especially for lists that have power in one small cheap ship (Demolisher, Admonition, Yavaris with fighters). If you can leverage a lot of power out of one trick unit, it's easy to fill the rest of your list with activation fodder and use it to time out your opponent and strike. Again, that's how DeMSU worked, except that list uses activation sinks armed with APTs that screen auto-kicks.

I'd like to see tools for ships to handle themselves better even if the activation advantage is against them, especially for Empire. Rebels have Rieekan, so even if you lose a ship or ace squadron as second player, that entity sticks around to fight back regardless of being destroyed. I feel like the Imperial pieces are too awkward to find ways to drop points for that extra advantage on a bid, especially since capital ships are so expensive. And if Empire is supposed to win the squadron game by having a near 2:1 advantage in fighters, even TIEs are costly to drop, especially when the jump between Fighters and interceptors is so much of a contrast.

In response to which side I play, it's both. Hell, tomorrow I was heading over to Dad's house to play a quick 200pt game, with an Imperial list that's just a Glad II with just Assault Concussion Torps and Veteran Gunners, and a Gozanti Assault flotilla tooled up with equipment for bombing (plus some squadrons) Motti leading them to make each ship tougher (Hull 4 Flotilla should make them hold out better).

snip

Yeah ISDs are great, but I'm...hmm... concerned? that rebel bomber combinations can make shields evaporate rapidly. It's scary every time I see it happen on the table but there it is...

I keep fluctuating between lists myself. My old favorite is two VSD-IIs with Gunnery Teams and Xi7s, an ISD with the same but also packing Leading shots or SW-7s with ECMs. Motti was the Admiral. Recently I've been trying two VSD-Is with a mix of fighters and two Gozantis with either Jamming fields (for the fighters) or Comms Nets (For the capital ships).

The opponent type I'm facing is usually Yavaris with Flight Commanders and Flight Coordination Teams (moves up into medium range of the fighters, moves those fighters, and then makes them attack twice), two to three GR-75 transports with boosted comms and BCCs (advantages at distance 5), Toryrn Farr is in there to allow a lot of X-Wings to control their dice and B-Wings to re-roll their blue again for accuracy. Sometimes Adar Tallon could be thrown in there to allow a fighter to activate for a third attack if Yavaris is in the picture. The rest are slush points, anything from a Pelta to a CR-90 to an MC-30 in the types I've built as mockup lists.

The last time I proxied this list, it had 3 X-Wings, 4 B-Wings, Jan Ors, Norra Wexley, and Shara Bey. I've also seen permutations with Wegde in there as well, waiting for the counter-attack with Yavaris to double-attack two activated squadrons. Since he's escort I can't try saving him for last except trying to intel away from him, like I've been doing with Shara.

This list cools it on their side of the board, going first or second depending on how much it wants to respond to the threats that challenge it. With that many activations though, it could comfortably sit at second in a Demo rush, since it would use a flotilla to block Demo's approach, then Yavaris pushes fighters closer to it for six attacks out of three fighters if a token is banked. With the stacked BCCs, you think Demolisher could last against 3 nearly certain damage that peels a shield off with each strike before tokens are spent?

Alright, all of the following is to be taken with a grain of salt, since I have yet to conduct rigorous experiments with the full force of a Wave 5/CC enabled bomber wing. I also have no idea what of this you've tried, so I'm throwing it all out there. I like the Victory and ISD-2s for the standoff ship combat range, but I have some ideas from my own experience you might like to try. My first suggestion is trying Raider-1s (pairs work best, but one is ok) loaded with OE, and either Flechette or Assault Proton Torpedoes. I would experiment with a pair of such ships, working in concert with either an ISD-2 or the double Victories as escorts. If you've got FT, use them to cut off the bomber wing with crits left and right. Otherwise, Raiders make great Yavaris and MC30 killers if they can get the drop on it. In my experience, the Rebel will either wheel his bombers to hold off your light ships, leaving the battlewagons to slug it out with the regular ships, which aren't all that impressive in combat power (excepting the MC30 of course, and even that is situational), or the Raiders will slice through the flank like the oversized lawn darts they resemble so closely. If you run Motti, I wouldn't be afraid of ramming Yavaris or an MC30 after the APT crit to finish the job. The Rebels may burn through your shields, but the look when you ignore theirs is priceless.

Second point, which fits into the first and last, I would try to exploit that flotillas have only moderate fighter control. Unupgraded they can only push two squadrons around, four tops with a token, whereas VSDs and ISDs easily outmatch that. If you can arrange the fighter battle so that he can't effectively jump everyone at once, or heavily punish them once they have, I think you might make your opponents think twice about the tactic. FOr example, leap your fighter screen onto some bombers to engage them, then let Jan arrive and pounce on the Rebel traitor with a Raider and perhaps IG-88. Between those two units, you ought to be able to murder her, leaving the rest of their bombers much more vulnerable to your own screen. Another counter here is that Instigator is not affected by Intel. If you can jump the bombers after they move with the Raider such that it survives until the next round, then lead with anti-squadron fire and a wave of attacks from the fighter screen, you might do some considerable damage, and Instigator need only be in danger for about one round. That is not to say this is easy or foolproof, but it's a tactic that has worked on me on occasion.

My final thought is this, have you tried investing in a Defender wing? There are enough fighters on the board here I'm not sure Phantoms will last long enough to be worth it (YMMV), but the 6 hull of a Defender makes it a nasty customer for all but the most ace-heavy of Rebel fighter wings. Col. Jendon works well here, since he can double-tap one of your own squadrons (at the purely nominal expense of his own unimpressive anti-squad armament), and he positively sings with Maarek Steele, whose auto-damage and braces mean he can attract an amount of Rebel attention to be worth his points, whether he ever kills anything or not. I've have to do some fiddling with your listed fleet attributes to see how many are a good number, but I am confident they can help your problem. The only Intel unit is Ors, but the damage output of a Defender wing will quickly have your opponent make hard choices about his tokens, especially if most of the other fighters are generic. A thematic version of this I've yet to run through the wringer would be a couple (literally two or three) Defenders, backed up by swarms of regular TIEs and Interceptors. Use the Defenders' hull and speed advantage to dive into a Rebel fighter wing, and liberally sprinkle the TIEs to take advantage of the new Swarm node you've created. Best of all, Defenders are bombers, so if they chew through the Rebel wings or spot a target of opportunity, they can strike for impressively consistent anti-ship damage. They can't match a B-wing for output, but overall I rate them the better fighter, even after their expense.

What other tricks have you tried? A Rhymerball of Defenders, Tempest Squadron, Strom, Rudor if you're worried about interception, could try burning through the transports from standoff range, aided by the fact the Defenders are more than happy to mix it up with any Rebel unit brave enough to intercept them. One of these days (probably after my new PC is online), I'll get Vassal working and we can try some of these experiments against each other. I regularly face Rebel bomber wings, but rarely do they pack as many transports as you face, so I would be curious how we could learn from each other. I don't think I've solved your flotilla problem, but I think between us and the rest of the forum we can try.

I looked at the Regionals data for where I have the lists for the Top 4 fleets. I looked for "Lifeboat" Flotillas, which I defined as a flotilla with no upgrades that require it be near the rest of it's fleet.

1 winnng fleet out of 11 used that tactic. It had Motti in a naked Gozanti. 2 other winners had their admirals in flotillas, but those had Comms Net (and Leia) which requires proximity and suggests they weren't using that tactic.

So, less than 10% used a lifeboat.

For the Top 4 it was 3 in 44. 10 others had admirals in flotillas, but again those had Comms Net or Hangar Bays that suggested they would be keeping them near the fight.

So, 6.8% of the Top 4 finishers in Regionals tried a lifeboat strategy.

Every player that brought a large ship and finished Top 4 had his admiral on the large ship.

Using a lifeboat does not appear to provide a competitive advantage based on the results of these tournaments. You are more than 3 times more likely to win a Regional using a large ship than a lifeboat and more than 6 times more likely to make it to the Top 4.

You keep calling it an 18 point ship to help support your argument. A ships point value includes all upgrades on it, including the commander. The argument against what you are saying that people have made is that you can send approximately 50 points worth of ships to kill the approximately 50 point "lifeboat" with little risks to the ship sent to do the job. Your counterargument seems to be, well it's really only an 18 point ship because I get to arbitrarily decide to distribute the cost of the commander in a manner other than how it actually works in the game. You don't seem to be attempting to have a debate/discussion, you seem to be politicking to get people to get people to agree with you even if they've made legitimate arguments against what you are saying.

Until you can close with and try to kill that ship, it is an 18 point ship. You keep ignoring that fact because you'd rather attempt to poke holes in the debate than contribute to it.

The reason why it is an 18 point ship is because it's upgrade ranges encompass the entire map.

The reason these ranges encompass the entire map is because Admirals function the way they do.

I'd really like to know...do you main Rebels or Imperials and do you use this strategy?

snip

Yeah ISDs are great, but I'm...hmm... concerned? that rebel bomber combinations can make shields evaporate rapidly. It's scary every time I see it happen on the table but there it is...

I keep fluctuating between lists myself. My old favorite is two VSD-IIs with Gunnery Teams and Xi7s, an ISD with the same but also packing Leading shots or SW-7s with ECMs. Motti was the Admiral. Recently I've been trying two VSD-Is with a mix of fighters and two Gozantis with either Jamming fields (for the fighters) or Comms Nets (For the capital ships).

The opponent type I'm facing is usually Yavaris with Flight Commanders and Flight Coordination Teams (moves up into medium range of the fighters, moves those fighters, and then makes them attack twice), two to three GR-75 transports with boosted comms and BCCs (advantages at distance 5), Toryrn Farr is in there to allow a lot of X-Wings to control their dice and B-Wings to re-roll their blue again for accuracy. Sometimes Adar Tallon could be thrown in there to allow a fighter to activate for a third attack if Yavaris is in the picture. The rest are slush points, anything from a Pelta to a CR-90 to an MC-30 in the types I've built as mockup lists.

The last time I proxied this list, it had 3 X-Wings, 4 B-Wings, Jan Ors, Norra Wexley, and Shara Bey. I've also seen permutations with Wegde in there as well, waiting for the counter-attack with Yavaris to double-attack two activated squadrons. Since he's escort I can't try saving him for last except trying to intel away from him, like I've been doing with Shara.

This list cools it on their side of the board, going first or second depending on how much it wants to respond to the threats that challenge it. With that many activations though, it could comfortably sit at second in a Demo rush, since it would use a flotilla to block Demo's approach, then Yavaris pushes fighters closer to it for six attacks out of three fighters if a token is banked. With the stacked BCCs, you think Demolisher could last against 3 nearly certain damage that peels a shield off with each strike before tokens are spent?

Alright, all of the following is to be taken with a grain of salt, since I have yet to conduct rigorous experiments with the full force of a Wave 5/CC enabled bomber wing. I also have no idea what of this you've tried, so I'm throwing it all out there. I like the Victory and ISD-2s for the standoff ship combat range, but I have some ideas from my own experience you might like to try. My first suggestion is trying Raider-1s (pairs work best, but one is ok) loaded with OE, and either Flechette or Assault Proton Torpedoes. I would experiment with a pair of such ships, working in concert with either an ISD-2 or the double Victories as escorts. If you've got FT, use them to cut off the bomber wing with crits left and right. Otherwise, Raiders make great Yavaris and MC30 killers if they can get the drop on it. In my experience, the Rebel will either wheel his bombers to hold off your light ships, leaving the battlewagons to slug it out with the regular ships, which aren't all that impressive in combat power (excepting the MC30 of course, and even that is situational), or the Raiders will slice through the flank like the oversized lawn darts they resemble so closely. If you run Motti, I wouldn't be afraid of ramming Yavaris or an MC30 after the APT crit to finish the job. The Rebels may burn through your shields, but the look when you ignore theirs is priceless.

Second point, which fits into the first and last, I would try to exploit that flotillas have only moderate fighter control. Unupgraded they can only push two squadrons around, four tops with a token, whereas VSDs and ISDs easily outmatch that. If you can arrange the fighter battle so that he can't effectively jump everyone at once, or heavily punish them once they have, I think you might make your opponents think twice about the tactic. FOr example, leap your fighter screen onto some bombers to engage them, then let Jan arrive and pounce on the Rebel traitor with a Raider and perhaps IG-88. Between those two units, you ought to be able to murder her, leaving the rest of their bombers much more vulnerable to your own screen. Another counter here is that Instigator is not affected by Intel. If you can jump the bombers after they move with the Raider such that it survives until the next round, then lead with anti-squadron fire and a wave of attacks from the fighter screen, you might do some considerable damage, and Instigator need only be in danger for about one round. That is not to say this is easy or foolproof, but it's a tactic that has worked on me on occasion.

My final thought is this, have you tried investing in a Defender wing? There are enough fighters on the board here I'm not sure Phantoms will last long enough to be worth it (YMMV), but the 6 hull of a Defender makes it a nasty customer for all but the most ace-heavy of Rebel fighter wings. Col. Jendon works well here, since he can double-tap one of your own squadrons (at the purely nominal expense of his own unimpressive anti-squad armament), and he positively sings with Maarek Steele, whose auto-damage and braces mean he can attract an amount of Rebel attention to be worth his points, whether he ever kills anything or not. I've have to do some fiddling with your listed fleet attributes to see how many are a good number, but I am confident they can help your problem. The only Intel unit is Ors, but the damage output of a Defender wing will quickly have your opponent make hard choices about his tokens, especially if most of the other fighters are generic. A thematic version of this I've yet to run through the wringer would be a couple (literally two or three) Defenders, backed up by swarms of regular TIEs and Interceptors. Use the Defenders' hull and speed advantage to dive into a Rebel fighter wing, and liberally sprinkle the TIEs to take advantage of the new Swarm node you've created. Best of all, Defenders are bombers, so if they chew through the Rebel wings or spot a target of opportunity, they can strike for impressively consistent anti-ship damage. They can't match a B-wing for output, but overall I rate them the better fighter, even after their expense.

What other tricks have you tried? A Rhymerball of Defenders, Tempest Squadron, Strom, Rudor if you're worried about interception, could try burning through the transports from standoff range, aided by the fact the Defenders are more than happy to mix it up with any Rebel unit brave enough to intercept them. One of these days (probably after my new PC is online), I'll get Vassal working and we can try some of these experiments against each other. I regularly face Rebel bomber wings, but rarely do they pack as many transports as you face, so I would be curious how we could learn from each other. I don't think I've solved your flotilla problem, but I think between us and the rest of the forum we can try.

I've actually adapted much of what you've said here. My current list consists of paired ships working towards a goal with a token fighter screen and minimal bid. I chose objectives that give me a fairly good chance of a win if second player and included enough ships to win in both deployment and activation.

The problem with this is that Rebels have a distinct advantage when vying for activations and deployments due not only to the cost of their ships but the way in which their ships function. As you stated, Rebels are more about elusiveness and speed whereas Empire is keyholed into bulk, frontal assault ships as their strength.

In an attempt to beat the rebels at their own game, I decided on 2 Arqs, 2 Raiders, a flotilla (this is [gasp] a lifeboat), and a Demolisher with Valen and a couple of ties. I figure if facing a squadron heavy list I'll repurpose the Raiders as anti-squadron and took a Gladiator 2 to assist (2 dice vs the single dice of the Glad 1's).

http://armadawarlords.hivelabs.solutions/view_list.php?token=72775&key=a15324e913b5063663a32d8734afc9dd

I looked at the Regionals data for where I have the lists for the Top 4 fleets. I looked for "Lifeboat" Flotillas, which I defined as a flotilla with no upgrades that require it be near the rest of it's fleet.

1 winnng fleet out of 11 used that tactic. It had Motti in a naked Gozanti. 2 other winners had their admirals in flotillas, but those had Comms Net (and Leia) which requires proximity and suggests they weren't using that tactic.

So, less than 10% used a lifeboat.

For the Top 4 it was 3 in 44. 10 others had admirals in flotillas, but again those had Comms Net or Hangar Bays that suggested they would be keeping them near the fight.

So, 6.8% of the Top 4 finishers in Regionals tried a lifeboat strategy.

Every player that brought a large ship and finished Top 4 had his admiral on the large ship.

Using a lifeboat does not appear to provide a competitive advantage based on the results of these tournaments. You are more than 3 times more likely to win a Regional using a large ship than a lifeboat and more than 6 times more likely to make it to the Top 4.

To be fair, you'd have to factor in those with Relay as well (unless there's a video of those games to know for certain). The reason I say this is because there are times I take upgrades that the objective, my opponent, or my own choices have lead to them being useless. Let's say an admiral on a flotilla with bomber command see's he's playing someone with my fighter wing (featured on another thread) that is deisgned specifically to establish ssquadron superiority. Facing that with a bomber build, I'd switch focus from utilizing bomber command to adapting a lifeboat scenario, sacrificing those 8 points to ensure my admiral stays relavent since there's a good chance my bomber wing wouldn't.

Thanks for adding the tournament data into the discussion. It's good to see the math thought out, but one must also bare in mind that tournaments are not the bulk of all games. There are ample examples of people unable to attend tournaments, not to mention they are....what? 1/100th of total games played? 1/1000?

Likely because of this, as of right now, this thread is the most frequently viewed with nearly two thousand views, as well as the most responded to.....it's been up for a little over 24 hours.

In the sake of fairness, one has to factor that in as well. Because this conversation has come up (and been shouted down multiple times - sorry, had to say it) as many times as it has, it has some interest in the community.

Even if you say half of those views were just people looking to read a fight based on the last 3 times this subject has come up, it's still the most clicked topic this forum has seen since I joined it, at least within the short amount of time the thread has been going. If Flotilla discussion wasn't a popular topic, that just would not be the case.

I looked at the Regionals data for where I have the lists for the Top 4 fleets. I looked for "Lifeboat" Flotillas, which I defined as a flotilla with no upgrades that require it be near the rest of it's fleet.

1 winnng fleet out of 11 used that tactic. It had Motti in a naked Gozanti. 2 other winners had their admirals in flotillas, but those had Comms Net (and Leia) which requires proximity and suggests they weren't using that tactic.

So, less than 10% used a lifeboat.

For the Top 4 it was 3 in 44. 10 others had admirals in flotillas, but again those had Comms Net or Hangar Bays that suggested they would be keeping them near the fight.

So, 6.8% of the Top 4 finishers in Regionals tried a lifeboat strategy.

Every player that brought a large ship and finished Top 4 had his admiral on the large ship.

Using a lifeboat does not appear to provide a competitive advantage based on the results of these tournaments. You are more than 3 times more likely to win a Regional using a large ship than a lifeboat and more than 6 times more likely to make it to the Top 4.

This is not a problem.

It is not hard to counter tactically.

It is not inconsistent with the rules.

It is not unbalanced.

It is not overpowered.

It is not unprecedented in lore.

If it offends your private head-canon or whatever, nobody is stopping you from house-ruling it o if you can find other people who agree with you.

All of these spurious arguments with continually-shifting goalposts have been addressed by more tolerant people than I. You guys are all paragons of diplomacy and patience.

I on the other hand am in a foul mood and am sick of this **** dominating the forum. This thread has views for the same reason rubberneckers slow down on the freeway: everybody likes to watch a dumpster fire.

Fscking. Stop.

I'm fine if he keeps going, just needs to stop quoting half a page of text and writing them too to make a 5 sentence point. Sound bites people... They can exist on forums too.

Is there an option to ignore quotes? I want that.